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Another Fiber Question/PTZ Over Fiber?
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| 3RDIGLBL |
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Posts: 175
Joined: 27 May 2008
Location: Canada / United States
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Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:06 pm
Post subject: Another Fiber Question/PTZ Over Fiber?
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Got a potential customer who has a large building and a need/want for 8 PTZ Cameras.
He is not opposed to IP Cameras just to make that part clear.
When he built the place he ran fiber to each location where he expected to put a PTZ camera. There is power available at each location. Going the analog way I need to run each video signal back to a control room over the fiber cable and I wonder if the PTZ control can be made to run over fiber as well?
I am so green with this you have no idea and I have no idea where to start. There must some kind of converter requirement at each camera location to get video and data signals converted to optical and in the control room maybe some kind of fiber hub? I've read about a possible termination kit required also?
If they are analog cameras I assume a regular DVR would be fine?
Don't ask why he put fiber. THis is something the guy did when he built the place.
Thanks
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| Soundy |
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Posts: 898
Joined: 23 Feb 2006
Location: The Burbs of Vancouver
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Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 2:16 pm
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Wow... he musta got a bulk deal on the fiber, because it seems to me running that would be far more expensive up front that running copper... and now he's looking at a ton more for the necessary hardware.
Yes, you'd need some sort of transceiver setup - you can't just have one end send and the other receive. The DVR end would have to transmit the control signal and receive the video; the camera end would then receive the control and transmit the video.
Fiber is rare enough for networking that the hardware for it is still pretty expensive (no economy of scale there yet); for this purpose, I'd imagine it's even more expensive - I'm sure someone's build something to make this possible, but I've never heard of it being done this way, so I'm guessing it's not that common and thus such hardware would be rare and accordingly expensive.
Hmm, well, I googled "serial over fiber" and got a LOT of hits... but so far nothing (at least in one box) that will do serial AND video over fiber. These guys might have something - http://www.phasebridge.com/fiber_optics - but nothing I could see in a cursory scan.
Ah, here's something.... googled "ptz and video over fiber" and got this: http://www.versitron.com/fiber_optic_video_transmission.html
No prices on any of these, as they're manufacturer sites, but again, I'd expect it to be expensive.... most of these, the idea is to take a number of signals (multiple cameras, etc.) and move them over long distances (talking KILOMETERS here)... it's the kind of thing you'd normally use where you have to go beyond the range of ethernet (100m) and standard RS-422/485. And of course, you'd need a pair for every camera (or one for each camera and some sort of hub or multiplexor at the DVR end)... it could add up fast.
I'm thinking it would probably be cheaper to go with IP cameras, as fiber-based ethernet gear is probably cheaper and more readily available... but that's just a guess too. Even most switches that have fiber support are usually 16+ ethernet and one or two fiber uplink ports.
Or it might be cheaper and easier to just re-wire with standard copper  Use the fiber to fish through some Cat-5e and use cheap and readily-available baluns to send video and serial (and power, if you want) over that
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| 3RDIGLBL |
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Posts: 175
Joined: 27 May 2008
Location: Canada / United States
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Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 4:32 pm
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Ya no idea who put the idea in this guys head that he should wire the place with fiber. He states the longest run would be about 1000' but he definitely wants 8 PTZ cameras.
So if I go IP, I do agree that it may be more common to see this standard pushed through fiber than trying to get analog over that. I figure if this guy can afford the fiber than we might as well get him some good PTZ cameras. What are some good IP PTZ cameras? Then the other question is finding the equipment to get control and video over fiber. I doubt he will want to re-wire the place but I could entertain that idea with him.
Before I get to that level I need some king of idea of what is needed to get it done over fiber and the costs associated with that. Before I tell him I'll make sure we have an ambulance on standby 
Thanks for the reply and hopefully I can keep the thread going with ideas because I'm really not sure about this one. The ideas will definitely help me to figure this one out.
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| Soundy |
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Posts: 898
Joined: 23 Feb 2006
Location: The Burbs of Vancouver
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Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 4:46 pm
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Wow... 1000', maybe fiber WAS a good idea. Video over UTP using active baluns would cover that, but that's pushing it for coax, and for RS-485. Definitely well beyond the range of 10/100 ethernet.
Well, I guess the first place to start would be with some of the manufacturers listed above. Googling "ptz and video over fiber" will get you even more. I've found with this type of thing, it's usually best to actually contact the mfr. and describe your specific needs, and see what they can suggest... believe it or not, sometimes the sales guys actually have a clue What you'd probably be looking for is a video-and-serial-over-fiber solution with a transceiver for the camera end, and a hub or mux of some sort for the DVR end (would likely be cheaper than a stack of individual xcvrs, and definitely cleaner).
Or if you do go with IP cams, you'd want a single-channel fiber transceiver for the camera end, and a fiber hub/switch at the DVR... going straight to somewhere like Cisco might be the trick there.
As for PTZ IP cams, I think Axis makes some... I deal mostly with IQEye cameras and I'm not aware of a PTZ model in their lineup. I know D-Link has a few consumer-grade models, but with what he's laid out so far, that would make about as much sense as putting 13" steelies with 155/80R13 summer tires on an F1 car... you know, just to save money 
As far as software, you might look at a Vigil system from 3xlogic - they make NVRs and hybrid DVR/NVR systems with standard PTZ support, and may also have support for IP PTZs (another good time to talk to one of their sales guys), and if not, they're usually pretty good with updating their software to support new stuff.
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| survtech |
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Posts: 895
Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Location: San Diego County
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Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 1:17 pm
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| Soundy |
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Posts: 898
Joined: 23 Feb 2006
Location: The Burbs of Vancouver
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Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 2:19 pm
Post subject:
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| survtech wrote: |
| There are a number of companies who make 2-way fiber transmission systems for CCTV: |
Yes, but the catch here is, do they also include serial control?
| Quote: |
| Also, 1000 ft. is not pushing it for RS-485 over twisted-pair. With CAT-5, RS-485 can be run up to 4000 ft.. |
Good to know... I thought in retrospect that 1000' seemed a bit too low.
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| survtech |
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Posts: 895
Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Location: San Diego County
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Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 4:32 pm
Post subject:
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| Soundy wrote: |
| survtech wrote: |
| There are a number of companies who make 2-way fiber transmission systems for CCTV: |
Yes, but the catch here is, do they also include serial control? |
That's the point of 2-way.
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| Soundy |
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Posts: 898
Joined: 23 Feb 2006
Location: The Burbs of Vancouver
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Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 11:07 pm
Post subject:
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Still has to support the appropriate serial protocol.
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| aoshifiber |
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Posts: 29
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
Location: China
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Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 2:04 am
Post subject:
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i just saw this topic, yeah, you need a 1V1D transmitter/receiver for the transmission(video and ptz controll), pls check the diagram for details, coz they already have fiber connector at every site, it will be very easy for this system.
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| Soundy |
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Posts: 898
Joined: 23 Feb 2006
Location: The Burbs of Vancouver
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Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 12:22 pm
Post subject:
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| survtech |
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Posts: 895
Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Location: San Diego County
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Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 12:45 pm
Post subject:
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| Soundy wrote: |
| Still has to support the appropriate serial protocol. |
Not really. That's like saying a USB cable can only support html or ascii data. Data is data. All it has to do is transmit and receive it as serial data for RS-xxx. The protocol has nothing to do with it.
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| Soundy |
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Posts: 898
Joined: 23 Feb 2006
Location: The Burbs of Vancouver
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Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:38 pm
Post subject:
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Okay, here's the point: how do you get the data in and out of the converters? For serial, it has to have serial ports of some sort, that you can connect to the cameras and the DVRs or PTZ controllers.
All I'm saying is, when shopping, MAKE SURE THE DEVICE YOU CHOOSE HAS ALL THE REQUIRED CONNECTIONS FOR YOUR PURPOSE.
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LPS Loss Prevention Systems - Maple Ridge, BC
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| survtech |
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Posts: 895
Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Location: San Diego County
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Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 12:24 am
Post subject:
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| Soundy wrote: |
Okay, here's the point: how do you get the data in and out of the converters? For serial, it has to have serial ports of some sort, that you can connect to the cameras and the DVRs or PTZ controllers.
All I'm saying is, when shopping, MAKE SURE THE DEVICE YOU CHOOSE HAS ALL THE REQUIRED CONNECTIONS FOR YOUR PURPOSE. |
Try the links. Each company has models that have serial data ports - most are bidirectional.
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| 3RDIGLBL |
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Posts: 175
Joined: 27 May 2008
Location: Canada / United States
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Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:42 am
Post subject:
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Thanks for all the links and info. I contacted Versitron the other day and they had some questions I had to get answers for. They asked if the fiber was multi-mode or single-mode fiber and I wasn't sure. The rep I spoke to said it is different equipment for each type and prices are different as well.
I am waiting for an answer from the customer.
There is another question the customer was asking. He asked if there was a way to place the PC based DVR in one building and control it from another. He is basically wondering if we can hook up a keyboard, mouse and the PTZ controller in a different location than the DVR. The separate location is connected via fiber to where the DVR is located.
They will have a security guard posted there watching the cameras.
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| survtech |
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Posts: 895
Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Location: San Diego County
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Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 12:49 pm
Post subject:
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There are a number of ways to control one PC on a network from another PC on the same network. The easiest and cheapest method is to enable Remote Desktop on the PC you want to control. Do that by right-clicking on My Computer, click on Properties and click on Remote (in XP). Check "Allow users to connect remotely to this computer".
At the computer that you want to control from, click Start - Run and type mmc <Enter>. When the console pops up, click File - Add/Remove Snap-in, click on Computer Management, click Add, click Another Computer, type its name or IP Address, then click Finish.
Here is a link to a Microsoft tech note that also shows another way to enable Remote Desktop: http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/using/mobility/default.mspx
You can also use a program like PCAnywhere and others.
Last edited by survtech on Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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