I have done a lot of research on CCTV cameras in the 250.00 and less category and am looking for input on preference of black and white or color. I am leaning towards Pelco or Sony for my choice I just don't know if I should purchase an entry level black and white 330 lines of resolution or step up to 570 lines of resolution, or should I purchase color and get less low light capability? The high end Pelco/sony has an auto iris varifocal lenses and I am told these will vastly exceed bullet style cameras for quality. What lux rating will get me close to dark interior with out IR led's?. The entry black and white goes for 130 with lenses and high end black and white 230.00 with high end color at 260.00. I will be using a Geovision 16 camera card the 480 frame G1000 unit. I will be purchasing 12 or so the total cost fluctuates 1000 to 1800 dollars. I could go entry level thinking in 5 years today’s technology will be obsolete or shoot for higher end at the present. I am just looking for input from any one who has used these types of cameras and what their preference would be. Any input is most appreciated.

id go pelco over Sony. I sell Kalatel myself, but they are all good.

High End means Better Quality picture as it has Higher Resolution.

Color or BW, the choice is yours. I dont even sell B/W only cameras anymore, besides the bullet camera cheap one. I sell the Day/Night's, so its Color in Light, or BW in low light. Low light color cameras will see alot in low light, but BW will give the best quality picture in low light.

Rory

Take a look at this one, it's has the SOny EXview CCD chip, it's Day/Night, it's one of the best OEM'S out there.

http://www.shscomputers.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=3_24&products_id=50

Ex View chips suck!!!!

I would spend more and get a good Day Night switching camera, it will last for ages.. if you dont buy name brand make sure it is either Japanese or Taiwanese... stay clear of cheap x view chips and sony super hads!

The Sony I.T sensor is the best by a long shot and can be bought in many cmaeras.. for cheaper good quality go here... www.koreacctv.com
Ask them for a re-seller in your area.. or for top of the range go the Pelco or here for inexpensive high end http://www.cbcamerica.com/cctvprod/index.html

Before we get too involved in which camera, it would be best to find out more about the application. I didn't see anywhere in your post about where the camera will be used and what lighting conditions exist. Or are you more interested in a general discussion on the pros and cons of different types of cameras?

Good point....x view would be fine if you do not care much about day images

yep, exview day images can be shabby, and they get pixelised in low light, day/night is much better. Though if you have a gas station for instance, which has a ton of light, you can even use a standard 1 or .5 lux color camera and it will see fine.

have done a lot of research on CCTV cameras in the 250.00 and less category and am looking for input on preference of black and white or color. I am leaning towards Pelco or Sony for my choice I just don't know if I should purchase an entry level black and white 330 lines of resolution or step up to 570 lines of resolution, or should I purchase color and get less low light capability? The high end Pelco/sony has an auto iris varifocal lenses and I am told these will vastly exceed bullet style cameras for quality. What lux rating will get me close to dark interior with out IR led's?. The entry black and white goes for 130 with lenses and high end black and white 230.00 with high end color at 260.00. I will be using a Geovision 16 camera card the 480 frame G1000 unit. I will be purchasing 12 or so the total cost fluctuates 1000 to 1800 dollars. I could go entry level thinking in 5 years today’s technology will be obsolete or shoot for higher end at the present. I am just looking for input from any one who has used these types of cameras and what their preference would be. Any input is most appreciated.

There will be 12 cameras in separate rooms in a house. I would prefer the cameras to function in extremely low light. I also will have 2 outside with 1 in the garage and 1 at the front door. I plan on using the pelco dual heated case for these two cameras. Another factor is the distance from the camera to the object or window will range from 10 to 25 feet. My question here is will the 2.8 to 12 mm varifocal lense work or should I go with exact mm lenses for this application.

hi

2.5-12mm will be fine, and better as then you can adjust it once you install it. Price is not normally much different from fixed lenses.

Generally; BW for outdoor, and Color inside.

If you can afford it, get Day/Night for the 2 outdoor cameras, so it will be a better day and better night picture, and it is then color in the say and lower light high quality BW at night. Kalatel, Ganz or Sanyo have some good day/nights.

If you dont nessasarily need color indoors, get BW, as the BW performs better in low light.

But honestly, you can get a good picture indoors with simple bullet camera, standard resolution. Outdoors id stick to high resolution. Provideo has a day night bullet that is low cost: CVC-960IR, 1/2 the price of the traditional camera's day/night.

No matter if you buy the low end or high end, the technology for all of them will change eventually over the years.

Rory

Whoa. Do you know what ExviewHAD is?? There seems to be some people saying that Exview and SuperHAD are poor quality. If so please tell me one mainstream CCTV CCD imager that is better. Most of the good day/night cameras will use ExviewCCDs. There is mention of a Sony I.T chip. Can someone tell what it is.
ILT - interline transfer is by far the most common.
FT - Frame transfer
FIT - Frame interline transfer
IT - ?? Is this a mistake

Exview is Sonys 'best' CCD. It has better sensitivity, reduced smear, improved dynamic range (not WDR) and has better spectral response in the IR wavelengths. Please tell me why it wouldn't be good for day/night cameras?

The comment Exview day images can be poor and pixelated. There is something not right here. The best CCD day or night is Exview. Please tell me of a better one.

Exview is the most expensive chip used in CCTV. No surprise it is in most high end cameras. Pelco best box camera uses which CCD?

Color Exview produces pixelated images in low light, not day time. B/W gives a much better image in the same image lighting with no pixelization.

Exview is found in the cheap cameras also. But Super Had is even more common in the cheaper ones.

For a day night, you want the color to switch as soon as it gets dim, to Black and white, for the best possible image. You can normally adjust this with most day night cameras.

Ive tried just about every high end low light / Exview camera out, in a local nightclub here, but none could compete with the high quality of a B/W camera.

I think you do not understand the fundamentals here. You seem to be saying that a monochrome camera or a day/night camera is better than an Exview camera.
Exview is available in colour and monochrome.
An exview colour will outperform a non-exview colour.
An exview mono will outperform a non-exview mono.
An exview day/night will outperform a non-exview day/night.

To say a monochrome camera will outperform an Exview colour is correct but it isn't comparing like with like. You get a like with like comparison where exview is involved and my money is on the exview.

Please offer a CCD that you think outperforms Exview and we can discuss. I would also ask for to give me a CCD that outperforms SuperHAD. Sony are widely regarded as the best CCDs only other viable competitor is Pana but not at low light.

I dont think you understand.

Simple: A B/W camera will outperform a color exview or any other low light color camera on the market. How hard is this to understand??

OOOHHHH

Rory let the dog out.............

yep :-)

Rory man, take talk like this to the Dealer Section, no one outside of us needs to know the secrets.

OK read my post. In it I say 'To say a monochrome camera will outperform an Exview colour is correct' so we do not disagree.

I am not disagreeing with the comments that 'Ex View chips suck!!!!'

Exview CCDs are the market leaders for low light applications. If you want the best low light camera then it would be an exview monochrome.

Is it that when you say exview is poor you are refering to a colour camera.
It is as if people do not realise that exview is available in monochrome as well as colour.

yes, color i mean, yes, monchrome is good, exview in color is good also, if you absolutely need color at night, as I had to use in a nightclub car park, but the BW, exview or regular, will give a better image. Alot of the traditional cameras in monochrome are exview now anyway. And yes, it is a leading chip.

Question, what IS the difference between super had and exview, from what I could tell, exview is more expensive, and gives lower lighting. I havent really used and Super HAD myself.

Rory

SuperHAD and ExviewHAD (Hole Acculumalation Device I think). They are very similar. Previously as Sony CCDs have evolved from HyperHAD to SuperHAD then to what I know as the successor CCDS (as they still SuperHAD) the main changes were to the structure of the microlenses over the pixels.
The step from Hyper to Super. The lenses got bigger. The microlenses focus light onto the pixel. Each one is supported by what we will call pillars. Sony shrunk the pillars allowing the lens to become bigger and so capture more light.
The step from Super to Super2 (not real name). They went from SIL Single Inner Lens to DIL Double Inner Lens. This again enabled more light to hit the pixel making tham more sensitive.
Exview has progressed in sensitivity using the same techniques as above but the difference is the material that makes up the pixel (or the substrate). Whatever it is it is more sensitive (especially in the IR wavelengths) than the substrate used in SuperHAD.

When Exview came out it had other advantages such as reduced smear. These advantages were in the construction and now that SuperHAD has been revised these advances are in SuperHad as well.

By far the most widely used CCD is the SuperHAD you will use it everyday and not realise it. Sony, JVC, Bosch. Sanyo, Samsung, Pelco, Ademco - Majority of these product lines use SuperHAD.

I have done a lot of research on CCTV cameras in the 250.00 and less category and am looking for input on preference of black and white or color. I am leaning towards Pelco or Sony for my choice I just don't know if I should purchase an entry level black and white 330 lines of resolution or step up to 570 lines of resolution, or should I purchase color and get less low light capability? The high end Pelco/sony has an auto iris varifocal lenses and I am told these will vastly exceed bullet style cameras for quality. What lux rating will get me close to dark interior with out IR led's?. The entry black and white goes for 130 with lenses and high end black and white 230.00 with high end color at 260.00. I will be using a Geovision 16 camera card the 480 frame G1000 unit. I will be purchasing 12 or so the total cost fluctuates 1000 to 1800 dollars. I could go entry level thinking in 5 years today’s technology will be obsolete or shoot for higher end at the present. I am just looking for input from any one who has used these types of cameras and what their preference would be. Any input is most appreciated.

There will be 12 cameras in separate rooms in a house. I would prefer the cameras to function in extremely low light. I also will have 2 outside with 1 in the garage and 1 at the front door. I plan on using the pelco dual heated case for these two cameras. Another factor is the distance from the camera to the object or window will range from 10 to 25 feet. My question here is will the 2.8 to 12 mm varifocal lense work or should I go with exact mm lenses for this application.

I really like the Pelco CM3600H-2 monochrome for 165.00 plus the cost of a auto iris lens,preferably 2.8 to 12 mm focal length.Please let me know your thoughts on this product. ftp://www.pelco.com/ProductSpecs/21982.PDF

Well.. Pat.. you seem to know your stuff.. and very carefully stated points.. tell me the answer to these four questions please if you can as I could use your valuable assistance.

1/Do you agree that the X View chip sucks?

2/ Do you agree that many manufactorers use these chips so they can boast about low light ability, even though the sensor is usually too sensitive to operate well in very well lit areas.. Lets be honest there are more to cameras than just the chips, you need to be able to control?

3/Do you agree that there are several grades of the afore mentioned chips and that not all of them perform as well?

4/ What company do you work for or are you form a manufactorer?

(My Bets for the forum is BOSCH or Pana or Dedicated Micros)

I would really like to know more of why you rate the XView chip so highly?

I do not know much about cameras but this is what I have learnt from personal experience is the following:

The shrinkage of the pixel size requirements have made the effective aperture area smaller for newer ccds, this leads to less ability to be light sensitive. Sony brought out an "on chip" microlens to disperse the aperture area and concentrate the areas, this leads to more sensitivity...The microlenses on the pixels have small gaps, the SUPER HADD technology was designed in a way to minimise the gaps between these microlense by way of a different shape and utilization of this lens.

The X view chip has increased the charge abilty of the CCD within lower light wavelengths, in fact very near to IR light spectrum, it has YES increased the abilty to deal with smearing problems, the reason is that it is more sensitive and can therefore recieve a higher saturation signal level, the problem is that unless the correct controlling electronics are in a camera the CCD can be TOO sensitive to light and therefore not good for well lit areas.

In truth my earlier statemnet was not true, but the Ex view chip does suck unless you pay for high end cameras and unless you get the higher grade chip.

There is common miss conception that if you pay for a good chip you have a good camera and that is not true, after all a good engine needs a good gearbox to run it.

For you to say how good they are you, are either a manufactorer or only deal with the higher end gear!

Hay i dont know much about Cameras at all so I may be wrong, maybe I should hang in the DVR area and just nod my head.... My experience, ... tried many ex and had and ex had, ... none are very good under strong daylight, even with the best of lenses!

I would be interested to find out why?

I have 2 exviews in the field right now, and they are great at night in a car park, with lighting, though pixelize alot when it gets dimmer, but the day time is not a good image at all, compared to regular lux cameras (0.5). The best day image I have is coming from the extreme CCTV EX82 camera, which has built in seperate (non low light) color and seperate BW cameras. Even under extreme sunlight and glare coming off blinding white walls, where i cant myself keep my eyes open, it is great.

That client is buying a DVR and we should have them all hooked up over the next few weeks when they arrive, so ill post some images of the EX82 Infrared once its online.

I nearly forgot.... the I.T sensor is in the Ganz wide Dynamic and is called I.T. for Interline Transfer, it is the only one I have seen witht eh SUPER HAD technology that does do the job well at day time!

DVR here is the PDF for the new GE's Wide Dynamic, let me know what you think of the specs, may get one to test when it comes out, depends on price.

http://www.bahamassecurity.com/ms/pdf/MS-TXP1.pdf

that is acutally the brochure, below is the data sheet

http://www.bahamassecurity.com/ms/pdf/20040312_ktc_xp1_ultraview_prd.pdf

also found this wide dynamic mini dome, anyone used this yet, any good? Any other wide dynamic mini domes on the market?

http://www.silentwitness.com/products/wide_dynamic.php

1/Do you agree that the X View chip sucks?
No. I will happily and confidently argue until blue in the face that is is the current market leading CCD. Performance not volume.

2/ Do you agree that many manufactorers use these chips so they can boast about low light ability, even though the sensor is usually too sensitive to operate well in very well lit areas.. Lets be honest there are more to cameras than just the chips, you need to be able to control?

Disagree again. We have agreed further up this post that any monochrome (hi-end or low-end) is more sensitive than a colour exview. If as you say an exview can't cope with bright daylight how the hell do all those cheap monochromes do it? I say monochromes cope quite well with low end lenses, DSP chips or even analogue chipsets. In which case a colour exview will find it even easier to cope with the same lens and chipset.

3/Do you agree that there are several grades of the afore mentioned chips and that not all of them perform as well?
Nope. There are are no grades of HyperHAD, SuperHAD or ExviewHAD. I can give you the manufacturers part codes to confirm. There is an urban myth that some manufacturers have lower grade chips. Never come across it.

4/ What company do you work for or are you form a manufactorer?
I am from a manuafacturer but as I am not named I have no reason to promote anything here apart from understanding.
(My Bets for the forum is BOSCH or Pana or Dedicated Micros)
Sorry if you put any money on it. My English is too good (I hope) for two of those and DM do not make cameras.

My experience, ... tried many ex and had and ex had, ... none are very good under strong daylight, even with the best of lenses!

If this is true then you are doing something wrong or the cameras are exceptionally poor. Honestly the SuperHAD CCD is predominant in the market. It works well - no hard sell I make cameras with Sony, Sharp and the new CMOS on the market. They all beat each other in areas. The best for general CCTV is the SuperHAD easily. Same is true for Exview but it costs more so you would only use it is low light was a requirement. If you do not need the low light don't waste your money.

I.T is incorrect or a typo it is I.L.T for interline transfer. Nearly all CCD are ILT only exception I can think of are Panasonic FIT cameras.

Well, hmm, if you make CMOS cameras then that should narrow it down, I dont think Kalatel has any Cmos cameras (could be wrong), and since you use such a wide range of camera technologies, maybe Sanyo USA? How about Provideo? Or is it a smaller manufacturer? Maybe you can slip in the dealer section and let us know, just for grins and giggles :-)

No seriously, I guess we are just curious ..

Question, to anyone actually, ever see color parts coming through on a B/W camera!! I have a couple of them doing this. the color keys of a cash register, showing up as a form of color, on the B/W micro camera!! Sunlight coming through as yellow in the corner of another, all being Provideo cameras. I dont get it :-0

Well it looks like Pat shut Rory down but what about my camera selection. I need you 3 or so experts to give me your opinion on the Pelco MC 3600H-2 for around 240.00 with a varifocal lens. These are in a house with low lighting and I will compromise the color to get a decent monochrome camera. The Pelco is asthetically pleasing for a C/CS camera and has a 5 year warranty.ftp://www.pelco.com/ProductSpecs/21982.PDF is this a decent camera or what would be a viable solution.

noone shut me down :D

but yes, Pelco is a good camera, that will work great, make sure its a good lens also.

Rory

I also hope I didn't shut anyone down. End of the day I only have an opinion. The Pelco you are looking will give you as goos a low light picture as you will get without going to 1/2" or using frame integration (which I personally do not like).

On the point about a monchrome camera producing colour. A colour monitor requires a colour burst to be present. If you get noise in the video at the same point the colour burst would be then this can fool the monitor to thinking that there is colour. There are two ways of making a colour camera go monochrome in day/night cameras. One is chroma suppression where the camera doesn't send any colour. The other is to remove the colour burst. This is the true way however certain multiplexers go haywire if the colour burst is switched off after power up, they see it as video loss. So safest way is chroma suppression. This can result in fake colours occuring.

Good spot on the CMOS narrowing the field. Kalatel do not have the technology but GE do and they own Kalatel... Too pale for California though.

I agree with most of your statements PAT....

'

And then??

1/Do you agree that the X View chip sucks?
volume.

Make up your mind?

Pat I do not know much about cameras at all.. I never proffesed to do so?
However i have sold... Thousands and Thousands of cameras... Yes BLOODY sony Branded and Cheapies, and I CAN TELL you I am not doing anything wrong.....technical sources aside, the ex view chip is very sensitive as I mentioned but it is also very sensitive in the day.. I am not saying it does not work well I am saying that they are more sensitive so they look too bright during the day, especially in dome cameras without auto iris!

This is true, I should know this much!!

Secondly both Ganz and SONY themsleves in their latest camera PDF's have listed the following in their specs...1/3" I.T. Sensor.. why would the maker of the chip make such a mistake? I admit it standls for waht ytou said, but if Sony themsleves call it that why can't I?

You know much more than me I do not pretend to know more but these seems weird... please explain it.. if you would like the link to the Sony website and the PDF of the camera that labbeled itself I.T. sensor.. I would be happy to provide it.. and if the Ex view is so high end why can you buy exview dome camaeras for 75$ US????? and yet the others are more expensive.

You are probably right and me wrong.. but I can tell you this much.. the way they filled the gaps on has made the camera too much more sensitive and out of the ones I have sold...Many types... they do not handle bright lighting.. oh yeh.. there are no dips to adjust and its a SONY camera... so go figure?

DVR, maybe its just me an you, in the sunny regions ofthe world, having issues with exview during the day? I know we have too much sun here, I think you are in the tropical area of australia?

Maybe in areas up north where the sun does not shine as mucg or as strong, maybe they are better there? Where they were made..

Just wondering.

Rory

xview cameras in top right and bottom left

Ok. Sorry about the IT / ILT part I am used to ILT if Sony are using IT I would tell them they were wrong (but they might disagree as well).

The extra sensitivity causing problems still does not stack if you are saying that an Exview cannot cope in direct sunlight when a monochrome can.

1/Do you agree that the X View chip sucks?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No. I will happily and confidently argue until blue in the face that is is the current market leading CCD. Performance not
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
volume.
Make up your mind?

I have made up my mind. Exview is the leading performing low light and highlight CCD. It is not the leading in sales volume as it is predominantly only available in expensive feature rich cameras. The highest volume CCD is the SuperHad. If exview was available in a SuperHAD camera at a SuperHAD price I would buy the Exview unless that price change had resulted in the SuperHAD being available at a lower price, then I would buy the SuperHad (unless I needed the extra low light performance). It is price v performance v fit for purpose.


Of the pictures posted have you posted them to indicate a shortfall of Exview? If so what is the issue(s)? I see some areas saturating and a slight pink hue in areas. Let me know before I shoot of a reply.

It is grim up north.

no, actually good video.

They are pink florsecent lights.

Just posting them for grin and giggles :-)