I'm looking at this Bosch dome:

http://www.spytown.com/boflxtsevare.html

I'm curious about "NightSense." Is that just their marketing term for run-of-the-mill color/bw technology?

Did a more extensive search and came up with:

http://www.semweb.com/jan03/productsjan.htm

http://www.ferret.com.au/articles/65/0c017165.asp

Other features of interest are "Lens Wizard" and "Auto black."

Anyone have any experience with these cameras and/or technologies?

We have used them in the recent weeks. Basically it comes with 4 different configurations (mainley different lenses). Our experience with these mini-domes have been excellent. For the price, it beats Panasonic version of the mini-domes (with SDII) and comes extremely close to the same functionality and picture quality specially at nights...

The also have their latest cameras - LTC 0495 LTC 0620 series cameras. Actually, we do not see any functional difference or picture quality change going between Panasonic CP-474 (with SDII) and these cameras. Finally, there is another option available as a day/night that will compete with Panasonic overpriced products...

Levon

So you're saying even without it being a wide dynamic camera, it beats a wide dynamic camera for back lighting? Also, is it really as ugly as it looks in the image on SpyTown or is that just them? I need to know before i buy the Pano :-) I dont like ugly cameras though, so im looking at www.samsungcctv.com (techwin) which have some great specs and look good, they are currently competing with pano, and prices are low on most products.

MetzLyov,

I was checking the LTC 0495 too. I need two high-quality day/nights with approx 20mm lenses to monitor two distant driveway entrances.

The Panasonic CP-474 is actually $1 cheaper at spytown. If you don't see any functional difference betwen the Bosch and the Panasonic, which would you chose?

just got back to the PC..

well id stay clear of Toshiba. AS for Sanyo, great cams also, but for Infrared forget anything to do with Wide Dynamic from any brand. They arent ready yet.

Exview Day Night or if the camera sais what spectral response it is .. not many cams can do over 850nm .. im checking on those cams you posted now..

When you compare products, I hope the price is not the only driving force. I am nut sure if you had any experience with Panasonic product line, but they have the worst warranty procedures in the industry and they charge the highest pricing (and getting away with it). We sell Panasonic not because we want to, rather we have to...

As for Bosch, they have the best warranty and replacement procedures in place. This has been prooven even when Philips was running that division until they got bought out by Bosch. The pricing is lower than Panasonic and you get the best support possible. You also have to know that Bosch equipment is the key product line being used by U.S. Military and specially the governmental agencies.

Now, when you ask which one I choose, well, what do you think? :D

I dont think anyone can say that 1 brand has the best products, or all their products are great. Same with Kalatel, actually their support got worse since GE bought them, but they have some really great products, but them some of their products are real crap.

Basically you can never stick to just one manufacturer as none of them carry an entire line of products for every single application. But good support is a must.

Samsung Techwin is now competing against Panasonic, as they have a large range of wide dynamics. Ill be trying some of them soon.

Rory

Rory,

Cool off your horses... I am comparing Panasonic with Bosch..

But if you really insist (and I know you will), I will put in a claim that Bosch does have the best warranty and specially the support in this market. GE will be second in line and the rest will follow. This is not just an opinion, rather based on hard facts!

To evaluate the manufacturer, it is based not only on pricing, the quality of the product, the delivery schedules, the availability of support and timely delivery, but also failure rates and how quickly such manufacturer will solve the problem. Considering these facts, Bosch does shine more than any aother manufacturer, including GE Security..

Levon

Nothing better than a good debate to get things moving again.. :D

This is what I'm currently looking at to finish off the installation:

2 Panasonic WV-CP474s or Bosch LTC0495s

3 Bosch LTC1463/20s

I need two fast AI VF lenses in the neighborhood of 6-20mm for the WV-CP474 or LTC0495s to maximize the night view. I understand what Cooperman and others have said about lens sizing from a focal length perspective, but what about from a f-stop perspective? For example, is a 1.2 1/2" lens faster on a 1/3-format camera than a 1.2 1/3" lens?

Also, if anyone would like to PM a quote for these cameras, I'd consider an alternative to spytown.

Well, everybody knows I am not short of an opinion... however i also feel pretty confident in saying that most people know I am not full of Crap!. I have only recently started with Bosch and I have not posted for nearly 1 month (I used to do 5 to 50 a day) i have been learning the Bosch product line..

This is my findings....

The PC Based 32Ch DVR needs some work, it falls very short of some of the other High End PC Units even though it has a lot of great integration features, it is way overpriced for our market.

The Standalone, and many of you now I have sampled the kalatel and the Dm Units, is excellent a really large resolution on recording, it would be a lot better if it did have a faster frame rate, however the features set is very good, it has some disadvantages over the Kalatel and some over the DM but it has some major advantages as well, the networking suite is better than both products combined and the recordings are better than I have ever seen, there are a bunch of nifty features in the Divar that in my opinion place it as the equal best standalone on the market, luckily it is cheaper than the DM and Kalatel, so i have been kept very busy... for those of you that are now raising their eyebrows considering how much I praised a well built PC unit, my views have not changed, however I wil say that a strong pc user expects a certain level of failure, and I think that this is what biases us when it comes to stability statements,

hell I cant break the Divar, it does not even have an On/Off switch.. it just NEVER fails NEVER.. i must admit it is swaying my ideas about standalones as it just NEVER fails...however PC based units have sooooo many features.

The Cameras.. well put simply... nothing and I do mean NOTHING...comes close.. not for picture quality, not for ease of use... not for upgradability, not for stabilty, not for Nuthin!!!

The cameras are the Best in the world.. and yes I would have said that if I worked for them or not 3yr warranty and 7 year support, programable up a coaxial cable, 15 bit technnology and the new day nighters about to be released and they will be chaper than Ganz and others, they are not to be missed, I have never seen a better image on ANY camera and I have tried them all....Pano, Sanyo, Ikegami, Ganz.. the list goes on.. they are the best, the very best and nothing comes close, you dont put a 7yr support to a product that will fail.

We are selling massive amounts of the cameras however the PC based Dibos still needs to get going.. In short Bosch is very commited to support has Great intrusion products and the best cameras in the world, however i would say that it is only ON PAR with the Kalatel for DVR but it kills its cameras

Here are other interesting options for the 2 'telephoto hosts' I need:

http://www.spytown.com/tosikhirdayn.html

http://www.spytown.com/savcwidydaco.html

Comments? I'm not a brand wh*re, but am rather looking for the best features, warranty, and support (which implies a big, well-known company).

So far Bosch appears to be the clear winner in this forum, but it's a small group. If anyone else who has experience with these types of cameras has an opinion, please chime in.

The light gathering ability of any lens is fixed by it's optical construction, so it does not change with an alternative format.
f1.2 on a 1/2", will still be f1.2 on a 1/3rd.

One thing to think about though. In general terms, the size of the front lens element dictates how much light can be gathered, and it's this size in relation to the focal length which gives the maximum aperture (f number). If you have a zoom or varifocal lens, then as the focal length is increased, the effective maximum aperture actually reduces.

Whenever you see an 'f' number quoted for a lens, this is the maximum achievable, and in the case of a variable focal length design, not necessarily what the lens is actually working at.

Hey DVR Expert, good to have you back!
Do we detect a very slight , erm, modification to your views on the PC / Standalone debate :wink:

The thing I've noticed in these parts, is that low cost PC DVR's are sometimes sold to the customer on facilities, but in practice it's simply to achieve a better profit margin for the installer; or the customer is recommended to purchase a 'state of the art Digital' Standalone, which is often total c**p carrying a hefty mark up.

I'm not convinced that buying a half decent DVR needs to cost an arm and a leg, but I'm also aware that many units are sold on brand, rather than features, performance or reliability. In fact reliability appears to be a key problem because of many end users perception that if something is 'digital' it must by implication be totally reliable. Too many installers are happy to fit it and scram, which doesn't really do the industry much good in the long run :(

I've often thought that Bosch as a global brand, are in a rather 'interesting' position, and on balance their portfolio of products are well up in the premier division.
So DVR Expert, one month on has the Bosch experience so far, altered the way you look at some of the other CCTV manufacturers? Just curious :)

I've seen a few mentions of these new Bosch D/N cameras. Does anyone have any information? At least what price range and features are we talking about here?

Kaysadeya,

These cameras are available now... Since they are 1/3" cameras, stick with 1/3" Lens. Make sure your F-stop is closer to F1.2. Stick with Computar lenses, as they do provide excellent quality and performance and make sure they are AutoIris and follow the basic KISS concept!

DVR_Expert,

I do agree with your assessment too. Majority of our military and government orders are Bosch equipment, but GE starting to chase their position. When we move tremendous amount of Bosch equipment and we have almost no problems, then I will state the actual facts for the Bosch equipment in this forum or any other forums.

By no means I am biased with Bosch. We carry everyone, including American Dynamics, Sanyo, Pelco, Panasonic, Sony, and many others. I just want to reflect real data (I think this forum shows a tremendous potential of great tallent) and nothing less than a truth and facts will be desired.

Cooperman,

Once you visit their facilities in PA, you will be stunned to see what is really going on. The highest priority is quality, quality and quality. I have been all the facilities of our manufacturers locally and outside of the country and every manufacturer is doing something different. GE's facilities in California and in Portland are very impressive and they have done a great job to sustain their position. I just hate when GE product line is still being mirrored with Kalatel... Not the same. We have seen their latest DVR based on MPEG4 compression and it is a excellent box. What they are doing now is working on moving all their DVRs, including SDVR, DVMRE and all the rest of the products to this new platform using MPEG4 compression. Bosch already started on the same footing and they should have their boxes also to contain the same compression.

And then, there is Panasonic....

Levon

In the event that newer Bosch D/N cameras are officially announced, I trust the information will be posted here. :wink:

well if someone tell the pano and phillips reps to come down here already :-)

i got 2 $70,000 jobs im quoting right now and its going to be GE and ExtremeCCTV ... cause i know the pictures will be great.

Sure, I'd love to have Extreme cameras and that budget too.

I was looking at the WizKid WZ46 domes, but don't see anything resembling a wide dynamic *without* built-in IR. As you've said a number of times, it's better to have a separate IR illuminator, so I'm going with some WizKid WZ12L8s in the backyard (higher profile, slight glow) and WZ30L9s in the front (lower profile, no glow).

If you know of alternatives for excellent-quality day/night domes in the $300 or less range, please let me know.

You should try the bosch cams rory, really nice and you dont have to back focus as normal, it is very different, the D/N ar released but havent been shipped to us yet, will keep you posted

Yeah, I went through the IR dome phase, got out of it quick when I realised (and the manufacturer will also tell you this) that you can get glare from the IRs in the dome. The ones I had i just disabled the IR to get a good picture.

Anyway, just so you know the wizkid IRs only do around 20-30 feet. Extreme's IRs do much more ... hence the difference in price. The WZ12's are nice though, i used on on a job here, plug and play, 12VDC. It was a front door so didnt need to see far anyway, What camera are you using with them?

With the 940nm you have to make sure the camera has the spectral resonse for that. Most will see 850nm, but not all work over 850..

Also, just so you know, WizKid is their "economy" division, they dont have anything like wide dynamic or true day night. Extreme has LRX which works similar to Wide Dynamic where it gets rid of that extra glare in the image, and you can see peoples faces, but the LRX models are not cheap. Now they have something new also, called MX4 Technology. havent tested that yet as it is very new.

Rory

Yep, im just out of money right now :-( We are testing several DVRs that is taking the cash flow, but once those are done I can look at testing a few cameras again.

Rory

With the WZ12's, I'm using sort of a Frankenstein system consisting of:

Sanyo VCB-3384 / Tamron 13VA308AS-SQ 3-8mm

Panasonic WV-BP334 / Philips/Bosch Model LTC3364/50 1/3" 2.8-10mm

I have a few other lenses I got cheap on Ebay and intend to play around until I find a good configuration.

If you have any tips on how to best set these cameras for both day and IR-illuminated night vision, please let me know. Coverage is about 40 feet max, but I can tollerate some drop-off in IR illumination in the last 10 or 15 feet. There's also an option to move the illuminators lower to the ground for more strength with the tradeoff of not getting into some nooks and crannies.

ok i just have to take a look for the cameras specs and lens specs and will let you know, check back around 9pm tonight EST. I got to run out for a bit..

Yes, IR mounted lower and pointed higher is better, and also something to reflect off.

Rory

So you are just looking for Black and White Infrared Compatible Cameras?

These have Spectal reponses up in the 900+ range so they will work wih invisible Infrared Lighting: I have used the Sanyo with Extreme's IR before:

Sanyo VCB-3574IR - Over 930nm Spectral Range
http://www.sanyo.com/industrial/security/cameras/special/index.cfm?productID=148


GE KTC-540E - 730-1100nm Spectral Range
http://www.ge-consultantlink.com/Docs/ktc_540E_prd.pdf

AS for Lenses, I prefer Fujinon, but Computar or even Tamron will suffice. Look for IR lenses if you are using just a BW camera. If its a day night you can use either a day night or just a low F:stop lens. The sanyo i used was as simple tamron low f: stop lens, nothing special. Watch those dead cheap lenses though, image quality in Infrared could be even more deteriated with a cheap lens.

I cant find that Bosch camera online, all my search comes up with is in spanish! If you can post a link ill check the IR response, or if you know it post it here .. The pano doesnt say any IR response so id imagine it will only work in the 800nm range not the 900nm range.

Rory

I concur with Rory on Toshiba cameras... Somehow the link for the Sanyo Camera shows a product that has been obsolete for quite some time... Sanyo does not have this product or at least what I can confirm in our Sanyo content...

someone probably bought too many of them and are trying to get rid of them now .. :?

Rory,

Sanyo VCB-3574IR has been discountinued for over 2 months.... Looks like they did not change it in their website... It was a great camera and it did deliver the goods in a poor IR environment, but it is gone...

Levon

Whoops :-)

I used their Day Night High Res actually, not that one, with 2 x 850nm UF500s.
VCC-4594 - it also works with the 900nm range of IR:
http://www.sanyo.com/industrial/security/cameras/special/downloads/VCC-4594_prod.pdf

If Sanyo didnt keep discontinuing their cameras so much, they'd be a great line to use also :-)

see I can only sell 1 line of cameras, or at least, 1 camera for each application ... in my current situation ..

Everytime we receive a newer pricing (which happens almost every 2 months) seems like they drop their best sellers - go and figure....

Their main office is only 15 miles out of our main offices and we spend time with their technical guys and sales people. Great team of experts, but somehow all the decisions are made in Japan. I like their hi res cameras (520TVL). Not sure about their DVRs, even though in the recent months they dropped the pricing in an average of 20%.. I like their latest 1ch DVRs (30FPS) and ability to change the hard drive capacity without any problems using portable caddy....

I saw their latest POS software that is an add-on to their existing DVRs. It looks very interesting and does offer much less headacks on the interfacing with most of the POS equipment out there. I confirmed that they had this new software being tested in New York in several high profile store locations and they kicked American Dynamic's Intelleview out of both location... We will wait and see how well it will perform with out customer base...

They also have some interesting cameras to be shown and introduced in the ISC show...

Levon

i wish i had your job dude! :D

i dont get to look at, or test anything until i pay triple for it, time as it lands here and we pay customs duty!

Or i get a client to go out on a limb and buy it ... thats how its been most of the time ... well i sell them it at landed cost price .. so they save anyway ..

Rory,

You do not want my job, trust me - I have been doing this over 25 years....

I have a dealer in Bahamas who is mostly buying American Dynamics products... I know the local customs kills the overall pricing, but he is telling me that it is manageable... I do not want to go into much details, but may be we can e-mail each other.... Do you have my e-mail address?? I will get back to you weekends, as I will be out traveling to New York and then to Chicago in the next few days...

levon

I use to have it, I can PM you. I know all the dealers here that do cameras, unless it is a side job for him? There really is only a couple of us here. And honestly noone spends the time I do on it .. (22/7) :-)

I have never seen AD in Nassau in my travels though. Was it Freeport?

Rory

I'm doing two things here, so this may appear confusing. First, I already have the following B&W cameras / lenses:

Sanyo VCB-3384 / Tamron 13VA308AS-SQ 3-8mm

Panasonic WV-BP334 / Bosch LTC3364/50 1/3" 2.8-10mm

Note: the Bosch in the above configuration is a lens.

I'll be pairing these B&Ws up the WizKid IR Illuminators I mentioned. I'm committed to the cameras, but might consider swapping out the lenses if they can't cut it with the IR.

Second, I'm shopping for some really good color day/night domes and 'telephoto hosts' for another location, where color (say of a car) is of interest.

Okay now i understand - put me in a corner already!

Q1. what is the f:stop on those lenses?

Q2. Do you have a spec sheet on the cameras? I dont think they can see 900nm range - which means you will need to get the WizKid IR in 800nm range.

Q3. What Kind of lighting is involved in the Dome location? Are we talking color only? I know you said day night, but you also said you want the color of the car..in that case an exview is your best choice. BUT, exview is not easily found in domes, except the PROVIDEO domes. Ajny dome will do once it has low enough lux level. What are the bosch Dome's lux level rated at? Samsung Techwin for sure has one that will do this, but I havent tested it yet, nor anyone I know ... maybe soon.

Also. What kind of field of view do you need for the dome camera? And do you have a budget on the dome? What is the Dome looking at (application)? Forgive me if you already asked this im a little behind on this thread!

You mentioned "telephoto" .. from how far do you need to start seing, and how wide? For example, I will be using a 5-50mm lens on a day night box camera, set at 16mm, to cover gas pumps at a distance of approx 40' away (give or rake its out of my head right now), to see a width of 20-30'. I used my view finder to get the exact lens but im using a 5-50 in case they ever upgrade and add more cameras.

Also, in a retail store, I have a 2.5-12mm lens, set at 10mm, and that is zoomed in on a front door. The FOV is only approx 15' away, and that is 10mm. Its nice and crisp though.

Rory

Rory, here are the answers to your questions:

Q1:

Tamron 3-8mm is f/1.0

Bosch 2.8-10mm is f/1.4

Q2:

Sanyo VCB-3384:
http://www.sanyo.com/industrial/security/cameras/third_black_white/downloads/VCB-3384_Specs.pdf

Panasonic WV-BP334
ftp://ftp.panasonic.com/pub/Panasonic/CCTV/SpecSheets/WV-BP330series.pdf

Q3:

As I mentioned earlier, I was thinking about using WizKid WZ30L9s with day/night Bosch FlexiDome LTC 1463/20s. I'll consider 850nm illuminators, if necessary.

WizKid specs:
http://www.wizkidoptotech.com/products/uploads/PDF2/WZ30L_TS_050121.pdf

Bosch FlexiDome LTC 1463/20 specs:
http://www.boschsecurity.us/pdf/EN/LTC136x%5FDS%5F74913%2Epdf

As for the telephoto cameras, I don't think I can illuminate the scenes with IR, so I'll have to rely on ambient lighting from street lamps and neighbor's lights. This might be a problem with one location, but will have to play it by ear.

I haven't yet sat down to figure out the field of view and required focal length, but think it will be in the neighborhood of 15-20mm (1/3 format) -- could end up being a little more.

The cameras I'm considering to host the telephotos are:

Bosch LTC0495/20:
http://www.boschsecurity.us/pdf/EN/LTC0495%5FDS%5F81313%2Epdf

Panasonic WV-CP474:
ftp://ftp.panasonic.com/pub/Panasonic/CCTV/SpecSheets/WV-CP470Series.pdf

bump

Do any of you Bosch people know if the LTC146 series domes have an IR filter? I'm getting serious about investing in a couple of these cams, but they need to work in conjunction with IR illuminators.

Yes... They actaully work perfectly specially with IR Illumunators... Let me know if you need any help to find these items.

Levon

Metz, how much experiance do you have with Bosch products

Since the Burle was around then it got bought out by Philips and then by Bosch...

anywhere on here i can post some pics, cause id like to show you some ganz and sukwang cams, screen shots of the web server connection....

Middy

No way I know of. You can host them on a web server somewhere and then provide us with the URL between '[img] ....[/img]' tags. If you have Yahoo DSL or some other service that provides web hosting, that will work.