which of the two system is better, stable? what is the strength and weakness of one system over the other?

It depends on whether you are a low income earner, or you are a business owner that needs to blend various security "platforms", or you need more intensive options verses simplicitic operation (plug n play).

I think each has it's own advantages, and each has it's own environment where they shine.

I would not want to give a DVR to an elderly lady then have to teach the old lady how to navigate the "jet fighter cockpit" where she has to grab a mouse, and then have to click on a motion tab, then have to highlight the time frames on a time line, and then have to teach her to set up cameras, and masking, and then show her how to get out of the server program by clicking file, and then click on EXIT, ect, ect.

Then I would have to show her how to navigate all of the user/passwords to get in to the computer, and then in to the server program.

I would also be the laughing stock if I showed up with an AVTech 16 channel to install at a high security, high threat goverment building!!!

Yikes!

The advantages of a PC based system:

Great for plug, and play repair parts such as power supply, DVR card, ect, ect.

i see. what's wrong with the AVTECH 16 CH? for the cpu based do i need to buy branded computers? or generic (assembled) computer would do the job?

There many "points" that go in to selecting the "right" DVR. An AVTech DVR may not be suited for the high security goverment building, but maybe I would use an ICRealtime DVR as they are mounting the DVR in a server room, and remotely accessing it for live view, and past view. I may need a DVR that looks great over the internet at D1. The AVTech may not do D1, and it may not match the ICRealtime quality of video over the internet, or lan system.

I also have to look at the following to determine the right DVR:

Budget
threat level (security level)
installation environment
camera selection (low res, high res, analog, IP, night vision, ect)
option request
future needs
residential/light commercial (mom n pop)/commercial/ full security
redundancey/backup in case of failures
techsupport (and knowledgeable tech support)
warranty
product lifespan
internet viewing
local verses remote usage (desk top / rack mount)

There is nothing wrong with the AVTech 16 channel DVR. On this forum you will find me to be their "champion" to a fault, and I highly recommend them. I am also the first to be open, and honest as to faults, system design, and factors to AVTech/CPCam.

Lets say that I was going to sell you a DVR!

My first "wild guess" is that you are highly educated to DVRs, and how they work. Something more "sophisticated" may suit your needs a little more. You might be the type to have more "control" over various functions of the DVR, and that would have to go in to the decision process of selecting a DVR.

If you were totally uneducated about DVRs, and you had difficulty setting the time on a VCR, then I would pick a DVR that matches that "pesonality", and have a simple menu, and have a "quick plug n play" system.

There are customers that are ignorant of DVRs, but you can tell there is going to be a quick, and high learning curve, and I would not want a DVR that is simple that is going to be left behind in that learning curve learning cycle. IT managers for example. They have no clue about DVRs, and they lack CCTV training, and that can be a severe handicap in their role of buying a system to "make the boss happy". They may think they are technical, and that they "know it all", and then approach me in a condesending tone. At this point I can sell any DVR that sounds "techie", but I had better be very careful. They may be happy now, and really upset later as they reach the higher levels of their learning curve.

For an IT manager a higher end DVR that is XP/Linux based may suit their "personality" better than an entry level DVR that can do the exact same job with simple menus.

Anybody can sell a DVR, but can most salepeople match the DVR to the client? Is it that most salepeople have to sell a particular DVR in their distribution chain because that will give the "boss" the highest profit percentage? Is it because they have to sell a particular DVR as they have a coop advertising plan with a distributor?? You have to keep the advertising dollars rolling in!! Are they "selling" you a DVR, or are they "pushing" you a DVR?

I would tell the prospective client to tell me more about what you are looking for, and how you are going to use it, and describe where it is being used, and what the environment will be.

Is security of the essence? Is price of the essence?

________________________________________________________

Computer based.

This is not my expertise, and others will chime in with their experience.
I would highly recommend going brand name, best of breed products.

You have read post about VIA chips sets that do not work, and you have read about built in sound card problems.

I think you have to "reverse engineer" a PC based product before you buy/build.

Where are you mounting the cameras?
What kind of cameras will work in that environment?
Based on those cameras, what is the best DVR card to match the camera?
Base on this DVR card what is the best motherboard to match that DVR card.

Where is the DVR being mounted? Desk top, or rack mount?
Does the desktop, or the rack mount case match the mother board?
Base on case, motherboard, and the DVR card you can start the process of selecting the other parts to assemble you PC base system.

I would not buy a $3000.00 computer to install an "EchoBAY" $45.00 4 channel DVR card.

I would not buy a "WallyWorld" $300.00 computer, and install a $1200.00 Geo Vision card.

_______________________________________________________

Are you buying for yourself, or are you going in to "business" for yourself?

I would select a close by distributor with great tech support! Being close by you will get your products next day, or within two days. Base on this distributor you will have to sell their product line. This will dictate what you sell to your customers.

I being in Florida have extreme difficulties ordering from reps/dist in California. It take 5 days to get my products, and I have to unbox them, and test them before an install. If I have an "emergencey" part that I need then I am stuck with the 5 day waiting period!! Yikes!!

There other factors in deciding on a distributor as well.

Are you going in to business for yourself?

_______________________________________________________

What do you think?

thanks for the information sir scorpion. yes i'm going into business. right now i'm not yet familiar which brand is low end or high end. I'm on the learning process now and gathering information.

Hey! CONGRADULATIONS!!

If there is anything I can do to be of any help assistance then please fill free to contact me!!

Have you read some of the threads in the ARTICLES section?

http://www.cctvforum.com/cms_articles.php

Business/Marketing:
http://www.cctvforum.com/cms_articles.php?cid=5

______________________________________________________

QUESTION?

Do you have some contracts already? I know this is none of my business, but I am asking as your contracts "in hand" will direct me to show you where to go.

Are these residential contracts, or are you doing a City Hall, Police Dept, or a highend commercial job??

What other low voltage products services do you provide?

Cable (structure wiring) installation services
Alarm
Intercom
Home theater
Sound Surround
Whole House Audio
Card Access
Central Vac
Pool Alarm
Automation
Networking
Media Centers

Are you primarly a

LockSmith?
Alarm Dealer?
HomeTheater?
Satellite Installer?
Computer Repair?

Looking at your background, your expertise, and what business model you want to get in to, or to achieve is what I would look at.

I would then look at how your business would be funded.

1. No funds, and I will be building this business from scratch.
2. Granma just died, and I have small amount of funds
3. I was a lawyer with the tabacco settlement, and I have an obcene amount of cash to start a business.

Now that we "know they self", we can look at what direction you want to go.

Will you be doing this on your own, and answering to no one?
Will you be taking on a partner who will provide business capital, or an area of expertise to run the business, and only you two will be in charge?
Will you put together an investment pool, and having to answer to a board of directors?
Do you have a friend who is a multi millionaire who you will only have to answer too?

right now we will provide cctv system , access control , & satellite tv. alarm systems may be the next , if we have established the three. regarding the contracts, we are trying to provide all sectors (low end user and high end user). I'm an electronics and communication engineer so i think i can cover all field. hehehe

Who will be doing the attic crawling, and CCTV installations?

i have hired 3 personnel to do the job. i will just instruct them how to do it .

one thing that has started to frustrate me with the PC systems is the actual computer hardware .. unless you have a tested system and buy a bunch of the parts and keep ready built PC DVRs in stock .. you now have to put up with things like products being discontinued the day you goto order, you find a motherboard worth using then 3 months later its either replaced by the manufacturer for another or they messed it up with a new Bios .. Sorry venting .. but just getting Fed up now .. :(

Also, I just had a job where it involved placing a DVR in a room behind an elevtor shaft .. lots of Dust and no real air .. well was not that bad .. but Hell on earth for a regular Computer, even built the PC for it but decided against it when I was inside there pooring with sweat at NIGHT .. add the necessary fans to keep it cool in all that heat, then you get tons of Dust going into the case and all over the hardware .. then its just basically circulating hot air anyway .. middle of the day being 90+ outside, then dont talk about the Summer .. anyway, slapped one small Avermedia EB1304 in there, little board, no fans at all .. thing runs like a Gem, dont even feel any heat inside the little case, hard drive is even a good enough temp. Not many features but it works, and it costs less than the PC DVR. Downside is if anything other than the hard drive goes bad .. cant replace that here. Has no power supply BTW, it has the extra piece on the cord.

Is there a motherboard that has been on the market for sometime, and appears to be around for the near future??

Been on the market for sometime, easy enough to find, IF it is in stock .. as for being around for the near future .. good luck :(

so for the cpu based , we need to be updated regarding the motherboards . and be aware if it is going to be phased out by the manufacturer

Not just the motherboard, that was just an example. CPUs sell out left and right, one day you can order the 2.2, next day it could be sold out and all they have is the 2.4 or 2.6 .. more $$ in some cases. Video Cards, Computer Cases, same thing. Memory and Hard Drives are really about the only thing that you can always get, that although they do change in price, its normally for the better, where you get more memory/disk space for less, for example.

If you dont mind shopping around and shipping from multiple stores then its fine .. but me I cant do that .. thats lots of extra shipping and time. Best way would be to stock but not enough sales for that down here.

if I buy local store (not online), just the parts, I get a warranty, but its not much and the product costs triple in most cases. Also its rare that I can even get what I need down here, for a PC DVR.

So it really does depend on where you live and whether you will stock or buy per order.

sir rory which system do you recommend?

If you have lots of extra business cash then you can afford to stock items on your shelf.

If you are tight on cash then keep just a little on hand. For example if you are tight on cash you can keep one 4 channel DVR, one 8 channel DVR, and you can keep four bullet cameras for the 4 channel, and eight bullet cameras for the 8 channel, twelve box cameras, twelve of a type of lens (wide angle) ect, ect.

Now you can order just in time to restock what you just used.

If you have a longer wait due to lets say ordering from California in my case, then you may need to carry an extra item, or set to match your daily sales. If you are selling one 4 channel DVR everyday then you will want to stock a minimum of five 4 channel DVRs, perhaps maybe six units incase of the weekend, holiday, or you order was after "2pm", and your shipment will not go out until the next business day!

This is where a showroom can become a tool. You will want to have two sets of customers. One that is entry level, and that is a walk in type traffic, and the other is where you are going out and getting jobs, whether you are cold contacting, or getting the higher end jobs from advertising.

The enty level customers may not spend as much, but you can turn over a lot of items, and this will pay for your storefront overhead. Now when you get a high end client you can bring them in to your showroom by appointment when no customers will be around if you want some quiet time, or you can bring them in during the showroom's business hours if you prefer.

Now if you have lots of cash you can buy 100 4 channel DVRs, and you can get a really good discount!! Now you can make more profit. The question is: How fast can you sell 4 channel DVRs? You do not want to hang on to 4 channel DVRs for more than one year as the models may change, or the price may drop, and then you are stuck! I would not have a DVR sit on a shelf for more than 3 months, maybe 6 months if you want to stretch it.

Now your showroom becomes your stock room! You are turning over products to the DO IT YOURSELF CROWD, and if on a project you need a different camera then what was on the bid, then no problem! Just go to the shelf, and get what you need!!

WHAT CAN I SELL FOR QUICK SELL ITEMS??

Small hand held audio recorders. This is bought by many people for many reasons.

Cheating boyfriend/girlfriend/ or spouse.
Employee is lying, and you are about to loose your job.
Babysitter that you have bad suspicions.
Sales people who bait, and switch.
Contract negotiation.

It is not illegal to sell them. How you use them is what determines what is illegal. Guns are not illegal, it is how you shoot it that makes it so.

Know your state laws, and you will be OK.

You can also sell bug detectors. People need to know that they are not the target of snooping. This will be bought by those going through a divorce, business people who have problems with a partner, or the crazys who think the world is out to get them.

You can also sell camera detectors. This device will find a covert camera in 1 second flat!! This can be marketed to women who go to gyms, female bathrooms (bars, restaurant), tanning salons, or dressing rooms, or you can market them to the going through a divorce crowd, or to the paranoid!! Private Detectives are a good source for customers!

These are items that turn over very rapidly! With 4 camera entry level systems, and other CCTV items your showroom should do pretty good!!

You can carry other "security devices" such as drive way alerts, and inexpensive all in one motion detectors that chime, or alarm when someone walks past them, and you can carry those items that will secure windows, doors, or sliding glass doors. For some odd reason there is someone coming in to my shop everyday looking for burglar alarm window contacts! I sell these hand over fist! Apparantly there is no where to buy them retail.

You can carry walkie talkies, or binoculars. Pepper Spray is a quick sell!!


You can carry other Spy Shop Items if you wanted to!

What do you think?

thanks for the information. do you have a website for your store?

http://scorpiontheater.com/SPYGADGETS.aspx

Here is another link if you want to see what a Spy Store looks like. On the bottom right there is a video montage, and you can barely see me in two pictures just before the monkey (covert cam) picture.

Click on the speaker icon on the bottom to listen to the music.

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=242876517

Please note that I am no longer with the Spy Source Warehouse, as I have dissolved this business relationship. The next storefront is overdue on its grand opening, and I am stuck in limbo for time being without a storefront.

The stock consist of a wide variety of CCTV equipment, spy gadgets, burglar alarm equipment, card access, and we carried wiring for video, voice, and data, and we have DIY items, can safes such as hairspray, shaving cream ect. There are spy toys for kids, and there are black light pens, and hand held black lights, and there are child protection devices.

Our X-10 stuff took off like wild fire when radio shack quit stocking them in their stores.

Notice how the "SPY" theme is carried with 007 movie posters, and other spy movie memorabilia.

I was offered an obcene amount of money for a hidden digital camera disguised as a lighter with the James Bond 007 logo on it from one of the Movie Promotions. I have seen this same lighter on EBAY for $500.00! Now in hindsight I wish I had bought tractor trailer load of them!!

I will be willing to provide information to anyone that wants to open their own business at cctvguru@hotmail.com

Here is my first free advice!

Here is a free website to start your business! Click on my sig for an example of the free Micro Soft website.
http://smallbusiness.officelive.com/

This maybe of interest to some:
http://workspace.officelive.com/

Now you can build yourself a free website, and a Myspace page!

Moment of quite awe......(the Master has spoken) :twisted:

Are you saying "information overload"?

LOL!

00 11 000 10 1111 00000 11111 000 :D

Im overwhelmed :D

wow i am in ahhh your holy one...

ahuuuuuuuuuummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Holy One???

I settle for Sticky King!!

LOL!

sir scorpion is there a dvr software that can control cctv and access control?

There many "systems" that can do what you are asking.

You can take stand alone systems, and blend them together using devices to create what you need.

There are "all in one" packages where you do not ask what the price is.

And you have some pretty decent priced systems available with many different "flavors".

For a small project where you do not need full integration then I would recommend this:

http://eclipsecctv.com/ECL-ACC950_door_controller.html

All you have to do is run power to the door strike, (or maglock), and you run power to the ACC950. All you need is a maglock, and the door is ready to go in short time.

This is easy to hook up, and program. You can use an alarm switch on the door to trigger the DVR to record the camera that is trained at door.

This would be for a rental car agency where they may only have 1 to 4 doors that they want to "control". This would be an employee back door, and the inside employee door. The lobby is open to customers. There is room for 2 more doors. You will need a DVR that has alarm inputs.



If you need the following:

Anti-pass back supported with ECL-ACC900/950/995

Auto diagnostic: No user intervention necessary

Dynamic door assignment supported

Emergency door release supported

2 Wiegand readers supported

Scheduled door release supported

Scheduled door arming supported

63 Time Zones

255 door groups

120 programmable holidays

Request to exit supported

Relay inputs: 4 (expandable to 16), 3A

Relay outputs: 4 (expandable to 16), 3A

Voltage: 9-24VDC variable auto detection

Power: 2.5 watts

Optional I/O expansion board available for 8 more door in/door out devices (ECL-1010).

Then you will need this:
http://eclipsecctv.com/ECL-ACC1000_door_controller.html

This is good for 16 doors, and 1000 users, and it is network ready.



If you need a system that send out email alerts everytime someone goes through a door, and you want to email a snapshot of that person then you will need a panel that can support those features.

The small systems are wired local to the door.

Big systems are wired back to a home run. You are talking about a lot of wires from each door that have to be home run back to one spot!!

what kind of cable do you use for access control? cat5e?

There are many systems, and each has its own.

CLICK HERE!

under MANUALS AND SOFTWARE click on Access Control

Scroll down to ACC - 950, and click on MANUALS, AND DIAGRAMS.

Scroll down to ACC - 950 and click on acc950_userguide-2

Look at the wiring diagram on the right hand side.

________________________________________________________

Now do the same for the ACC - 1000

click on ACC-1000 Manual

Read this manual, and look at the various wiring diagrams.


What do you think?

sir scorpion what can you recommend for airplane overhaul facility? what type of dvr and cameras should we use. they have hangar and i know that the security for this location is high. is there a standard of how long the video should be kept ( video retention) ?

It would be bad for me to recommend a system design, and a parts list.

One
I am not there one site, and I cannot get a good feel of what the place looks like from a cameras perspective.

Two
The DVR would be selected to best match the cameras, and other required specs.

I would not want to steer you wrong, and give you bad advice.

You could post pictures, and show the area that you want to "guard", and where you might mount the camera.

I could give you an educated guess from the pictures.

Cheap budget

I might select the ICRealtime DVR.

Will you be doing the Alarm system also?

Will you be doing the Card access system also?

for the ordinary dvr, to view the camera on site will not be a problem since you can all set them to D1 resolution. correct me if i am wrong. the difference only of high end and low end today is the web transmitting format. is this correct?

for the camera what resolution do i need to choose ? we are using ntsc here. is it 525?

for internet viewing which system is faster? standalone or pc-based?

No difference - it is dependent on the type of NIC card either systems have, but for Internet viewing, you will not see much of any difference.

depends on the DVR's features but everything basically depends on the compression used as well as the allotted fps per camera and ofcourse, the internet connection.

ok. sir how can we check if what resolution the DVR or PC based is transmitting? if it is D1 or VGA

Bottom line is though you can go by some of the specs, you wont really know until you actually hands on test the DVR, PC or StandAlone.

Biggest problem I have found is the ones that dont separate the web server from the recording - so if you set the DVR Recording to D1 then the web server will be very slow, if you set the DVR Recording to CIF then you get real time remote video, but useless recorded video. Things like that, Look for multiple compressions or separate ones and look for any specs that say separate Web server. But really most wont even list that, most more expensive DVRs will have it anyway though, the cheap ones are the ones that typically dont separate it.

ok. for avtech dvr, is it separated?

Dont know, but dont think so, least not for their budget DVRs, same with Avermedia.

thanks

ask Scorpion though to confirm.
If changing the recording settings effect the remote video then its not separate.

copy sir. :D

Rory,

TeleEye is one of a few which DVR OEMs which spec multichannel processing for recording and IP streaming as you mentioned.

Saw them at ISC, but they don't have US office yet....

is teleeye like avtech dvrs?