thanks for solving the camera issue,now its dvr time> i have followed the advice the forum so heres what i found so far. i am dealing with adi and their pushing honeywell. hrhd16+c500hd best compression rate but they won't tell me which version. i also got price on divar 16 600gb w/cd $900 more than the honeywell, next i am leaning toward the ka dvmre1164 16ch 640g triplx which is $1000 more than the divar. my requirements as i see them are 15 to 30 days recording. does b&w take up less room. is 60 ips enough, will i be able to see the differnce between a 5 and 10 setting will be starting with 12 cameras.more questions to come thanks

5 and 10pps setting is not much difference. I dropped down from 10 to 5 on a Kalatel (now GE) DVR and got an extra 14 days., continuous record.

DVMRe-CT for sure. Also, get a smaller HDD and you can switch in larger drives yourself. Saves a bunch of dollars. You would keep the original HDD for warranty issues.

Rory

Hey rory, how long (about) recording would I get on the 640 gig Kalatel?

on a 640GB with continuous record on, all BW cameras high res cameras, 10 cameras total, 5pps, we got approx 6 months. But ofcourse this will very greatly. Best to use the calculator .... if you dont have one let me know, pm me ill email you the GE one.

are you saying 60ips is enough does not leave any hi speed for cash register location or is running at 30 ips total over kill

i was just watching playback of 1pps on a cash register and it was fine.

You can set motion detection recording, and individually set either motion or continuous on any cameras, with individual speeds per camera, etc. So if you put 30 on the cash register for example, then that leaves 30 across the other cameras but on motion detection, if only 1 camera is picking up motion, it will be 30pps on that camera, then if 2 pick up motion, drops down to 15, etc, it auto adjusts the speeds. All the motion parameters and settings, including the motion grid, is all customizable through the remote viewer also, full administration of the DVR.

Personally I wouldnt waste 30pps on a cash register though unless you have it to spare, and alot of HDD space. 15pps is more than fast enough, and 5pps is more normal.

Rory

i think i got it going w/ge interlogix dvmre 16 pro unless the kalatel calibur dvmre 16 will do can't find the difference. also 1/2" cameras where suggested any problems with the philips (bosch) ltc 0500 series b&w or the sanyo vcb 3524 don't find much in the 1/2" size. their both under a buck & a half ohh motion sensor how do i apply that to these cameras or are they built into the camera or the dvr
rick

1/2" , 1/3", not much difference these days. We use 1/3" Medium Resolution in Infrared Apps as the mid res has better resonse with IR than a high res camera. But i still prefer high res :-)

DVR will do the motion, or you can tie in alarm system motion or beam sensors also.

The DVMRe-CT is 60pps, the DVMRe-PRO is 120 but it only does that if set in Turbo mode, and that has other limitations. The PRO has a built in DVD and cost about $1000+ more than the CT. The CT is a slimline DVR while the PRO is taller. The PRO comes with audio by default, the CT has to order with -A on the end for audio and that costs extra.

Those are the only noticable differences. Price is the main factor and i chose not to sell the PRO and just sell the StoreSAfe Pro and the DVMRe-CT. Personally i prefer the slimline look of the CT also. Both use the same Network Software.

Rory

price on pro was only $200 more and it had cd/rw what caught my i was the 120 ips. it also has a dvd option for $450 more all this info on surveillancevideo.com. like i said i have only delt with adi in the past, my current system boasts 4 hi res pano cameras 1 robot mv45 4 ch all b&w i want to say around 15yrs young but not sure as i can't remember what i did yesterday.
rick

Rory, slight correction on your assessment of similarities of 1/3" vs. 1/2" cameras if I may and they are not the same...

There is a huge difference on performance going from one to the next, as the technology differences are the image size - bigger the imager, better perforance and better overall picture quality and the processessors that are different. If that is not the case then why is the pricing going from one to the next is almost the double the price??? You can get 1" cameras nowadays that start over a $1,000 and in some cases, pushes to over $5,000 and more and simple logic will dictate to investigate and you will find out if your research and these are totally different.

Rick, when I gave you my assessment on the comperison of both technology cameras, it was based on the factual availability of lower cost on 1/2" B&W cameras without any hype, i.e. Bosch LTC 0500 (120VAC version) and Sanyo VCB 3524 (24VAC version).. If you do a research, you will find out that any major manufacturer pricing, including even smaller manufacturers charge almost twice as much, as it is a totally different technology in the light processessor technique...

Levon

Okay, but I used both and saw no major improvement and ended up using the 1/3" anywayz. Course that was a Color camera and Day Night, I think it matters mostly in BW cameras if any, especially with new technology. Either way i was using it for a dAy Night app with Infrared at night in pitch dark, and cant get any better picture than what I got .. :-) I ended up throwing the 1/2" one out as it wasnt as good an image, that put me against the extra spending on a 1/2" .. I can see spending the extra $200 for 1/2" if Im getting a megapixel camera, other wise its the same pixels on the DVR.

Rory, you need to test it with some good equipment and not from second tier crap :D

My assessment is based on not mixing the results between day/night pictures, vs. 1/3" B&W and vs. 1/2" B&W... There is a tremendous difference when we are referring to 2 different image sizes and the technology behind it... I wish I can give you some sources to read, but I am sure you can get them from Internet...

Sometimes we get great buys on hardware and sometimes it includes 1/2" B&W, Color and even Day/Nights (Panasonic CP-924, Bosch LTC 0620/21 and others). When someone needs equipment at lower cost than average pricing, sometimes I will make a comment and make sure they understand that it is a special price and it will not be there for too long...

Same applies to DVRs (Including GE), Monitors and other hardware...

Levon

:?: :?:

Rory, what's up with :?: :?:

Levon

:lol: :lol:

so techno wise different perhaps better 1/3 to 1/2.are those two cameras selections for <150 a good choice, they are in some discount mode now + they were the only two 1/2 i could find - and will now investigate further
rick

For most indoor application, chances are you will not see the difference, but when you have areas that are darker and others or flactuation of light, or for outdoor application, 1/2" camera will kick 1/3" camera where it hurts the most.... performance :D

Think about this for the moment - larger images in case of 1/2" cameras does process more light and more responsive to changes of light. The technology behind it is different, as it works with larger imager, and it has to process more light faster and more effeciently. It uses 1/2" lens (preferably autoiris), which by all means will allow more light based on light change conditions, therefore better picture...

Please investigate all around and I am sure you will find comparible pricing from second tier manufacturer, but as from majors, these two models are as good as it gets from price and performance stand point... Alwasy consider several factors:

1. Performance
2. Functionality and application (do not give more than what you need)
3. Warranty (must have 3 years)
4. Price (must be the best your money can buy)

You see, we are not even talking about 1/4" cameras, as those cameras are even cheaper....

Levon

okay i get what you're saying levon, basically its better for low light apps.

But when using infrared it makes no difference, except for the difference in image size related to lens focal length. Thats what I tested them in, and the 1/3 and 1/2" were the same in quality and picture with the IR.

Someone needs to make a 1" PTZ camera now .. :wink:

Cooool :D

Levon

thanks for all the help :lol: :D
rick

Rick, anytime!

Levon

Levon, who makes 1" cameras these days? I looked around but even Inkegami only have 1/3 an 1/2" ... just curious ... do they still exist?

tanks
Rory

Several companies... Let me get back to you on who makes tham, which products and their specs...

Levon

what application would you use a 1" camera
rick

Military, NASA, government, oil rigs in the middle of the ocean and others...

richchet, tell us exactly which cameras you got (your starting at the begining of the thread that you already overcame this issue) and then tell us exactly what you are trying to do with the DVR.

1. What is your application?
2. How many days of recording to you want (regardless if you want motion only or record always)?
3. How many channels DVR do you want?
4. Does CD or DVD burner important?
5. OS based on embedded?
6. Price points (I noticed several big names and models in the thread)?
7. Do you already have the monitor, the cables and the connectors in place?

This thread started with some questions on DVR and then turned into cameras :D

Once you give us the info for the above, I am sure everyone will have their say on their recommendations, pros and the cons... and then you will have your options to decide!

Levon

levon
my application is a tavern in chicago north side am looking to apply each camera no more the 8' from a subject. i would like to see transactions from several angles and close up. i notice if you go over the 8' mark the transaction becomes questionable. currently i have 4 cameras and all are spread out to cover about 1000' sqft.
min 15 days of recording with 16 channels i would like to dedicate 9 cameras to the bar area and will be expanding my place next year another 800 sqft
cd dvd not important just comes with the pro model i was looking at &120ips
os based on embeded have no clue?????? which to choose
cables connectors monitor will also need to install
internet access a must have dsl line already (sbc)
$$$ <6999.00
actually do not want to be disappointed at any price.quality a must since i will be the one looking at it.
thanks
rick

Now we have something to go on :D

Lets take a look at the cameras first - I take it you will use B&W cameras (from previous posts). Obviously you will need wide angle lens, as your viewing area is around 8 square feet. Dependent on if you intend to use 1/3" or 1/2" cameras, select a autoiris lens with 1.8mm-3.6mm range (you can get varifocal version to give you more flexibility)

Obviously 4 cameras will not give you decent coverage, therefore you want 16 cameras? You have a choice to get Microsoft or Linux based DVRs or embedded DVRs. The first series, if you choose Microsoft based, then you have all the inherent problems that Microsoft comes with (virus and worm attacks). In case on Linux based system, that is minimized temendously. However, if you go with embedded system, none of this type of attacks will make it to its final destination, as embedded system are not prone to these type of problems. I will suggest using embedded system that gives you great performance and ease of use and basically, you progam it and let it ride... Many to choose to from - Mitsubishi (probably the most cost effective with 60 FPS), Sanyo, Ganz, Bosch and GE Security (you see I do not suggest Panasonic, as you will need a lot of knowledge to program their version of DVRs).

You want 15 days of recording. Well, it becomes tricky when you are trying to calculate hard drive space when using motion only feature, as recording takes place only when the DVR senses motion from the cameras. I will suggest to have specific cameras record always (cash register areas mainly) and the rest with motion only. With 16 cameras attached to any of these DVRs, I think you are safe using from 250GB to 500GB hard drive to accomplish this task.

As for FPS or IPS capability, well that is another consideration, but I think it will be an overkill if you go with 120IPS or 120FPS box. Here is my reasoninig: If you were to select a box that comes with this type of frame rate, then your maximum available per port is 7.5FPS. Well, you will not see much of difference going from 3.75 to 7.5, unless if you push it to 15FPS... What is important is the resolution of the recording using FPS setting going from low to the highest. Each manufacturer will give you FPS setting and resolution setting. Because your FPS is higher does not mean by sellecting lower resolution will give you a sold picture quality. The industry standards that we work with is 3.75FPS with medium to high resolution and it works...

Calculate the longest run for the cables between the furthest camera position to your record and monitor station plus 20% extra. This way, you will have enouph cables and ability to move them as you choose at a later time... Will recommend using siamese cable non-plenum (unless you building code requires plenum). Connectors are dime a dozen, therefore if you will do the instalation yourself or with your coworkers, I will suggest using twist-on bnc connectors.

It is great that you already have the DSL service in place. What are the specs, up and down speeds? If you have a lower up speed and the DVR side, you will have slower live video view and ability to play back already stores video. The key is to have at least 256KB of up speed at the DVR side or higher.

Price range in my opinion is within what you are trying accomplish and can be lower dependent on the model of the DVR and its hard drive capacity. Regardless what you choose or end up getting, make sure that all your hardware comes with 3 years warranty and anything less should not be considered.


Levon

Levon, are there any 1/2" domes out there ..?

thanks
Rory

Few, will give you the info tomorrow....

In the middle of setting up my new FreeBSD workstation on 64-bit AMD procesessor based system and with the latest KDE GUI... So far it looks perfect and it is runnign the apps much faster than Linux....

Levon

.

I sadly do not agree with this statement at all, simple fact is..way out=way in..you want active X you take the risk!! Thats whya good firewall is always needed.

Agreed that it is less unlikely but hardly impossible.

As for 1/2 and 1/3rd I agree with both, think of 1/2' and 1/3rd" and think of them holding grains of sand..sand = light more sand= more light, no matter the range IE does make a differnce in IR lighting, another thing is that curvature of pixels means less gaps, therefore less chance of non picked up light, with 1/2" gaps are larger, more of the curved pixel can recive light, therefore more sensitive, couple this with 15bit and you see a major difference.. even though a 1/2" can see lower light levels, the cam has to sort this info so needs bigger data path.. prolly why Rory did not see a difference, certainly noticeable on the new XF Day Night, keep in mind too T Factor is increased due to larger surface area for misdirected light and better chnac eof avoiding edge abhorations in the glass.

Simple point is..17" monitors are cheap...why..mass produced but larger is much more expensive because it isn't mass produced and I have to agree with Rory, on most other cams you dont see the money's worth of difference unless in B/W or an XF 15bit cam.

how do i couple a 1/2" cam w/15bit and then provide a bigger data path???
8' distance range w/1/2"cam @3mm=11'v & 15' h if i am reading my chart correctly i think gives me good coverage some will be further from subject so was thinking 2.8 to 9 range on AI lens range.
rick

Our friend in Australia, I do beg the difference... If it is a true embedded system, how anyone can get in via Internet and cause any damage? If that is the case, then someone can get into the system and change the BIOS content??? Please pay attention to the word "true".... :D I sure hope Bosch DVRs with XP embedded OS do not have this type of problems! :lol:

Levon

XP is still Windows XP, as far as I know it doesnt matter that the OS is embedded, it still has alot of the features that regular XP has minus a couple here and there.

ricochet, we can get very technical here, but I rather not... I know which formula you are referring to... Here is one from Panasonic called Lens Estimator and Voltage Drop Calculator - http://panasonic.com/business/security/resources.asp

Dependent if you choose 1/3" or 1/2" cameras, you can pick up varifocal lenses going from range of 2.8mm - 12.0mm and they will work. In the areas that you need wider shots, then those cameras need to use wider angle lenses, i.e. 1.8mm - 3.6mm range...

Levon

Any Dvr that has the ability to Webcast a HTML page supporting activex controls can have a virus, if you can flash upgrade your DVR then it can be killed, if you use serial to connect and flash upgrade then you can use Dos on most to do the same.

The page that is cast out has to be loaded in, hence you can update all previous versions to webcasters, well what is the diff if it is done through the net.

I admit the chances of someone writing an exploit flashing an OS killing halfway through flash are highly unlikey like 1 in a Million but it is possible..if ya dont beleive me give me an direct connection to a DVR that is simply not protected in any way and I can turn it into a toaster.. like i said it is sooooo unlikely but it is very possible, you can still do things to the webcasting page held on the machine with great ease.

I agree its a pretty mood point, however it is indeed possible to do!

just interupt the flash :lol:
if you flash it with the wrong bin file also she dead, temporary at least ..

The GE DVRs have a web page for accessing the flash page, to upload new bin file, also only requires a simple password, so yeah, it can be unsafe if you leave the http port forwarded/open. As for worms, the system used is Nucleus so I doubt many people know how to write a worm for that. it all depends on the OS when it comes to worms and viruses, but for sure you can just upload some "bad" code to it and wont work great after that ;-)

PS. the GE web server files are all on the HDD not in Eprom.

Rory, picky picky picky... I did not say all embedded system :D

anything that can hold a bin can be flashed ... :-)

ahhh, member the days of flashing cards ... :lol:

As for our friend in Australia, anything is possible in the world of computers and as long as it is made by man, it is guranteed to fail no matter what you do...

What is also possible is that I can fly to Australia in less than 10 minuts and have a bear with our friend, possible yes, probable not really :D

What you are stating as a "possibility" is so remote (even you state one in the million) that if someone figures out how to flash a bios and replace it with their version of the code, then we will have complete world wide Internet destruction, which bring down the most of the world economies as we know it.

I think from practicality stand point, lets stay with the facts and not fictions. It is a fiction that it is possible to do it, but not probable and lets not get Casey or any other end user scared on decisions to protect themselves...

I am an engineer by the profession and I know that I can write a code in low level machine languge and I can force my will on any PC based machine out there. It may take me a day or a year to figure out the correct distructive code, but where is the benefit? If you see any benefit, please let me know and we can make some money together. :D

Levon

simply point the HTML file usually stored on HDD, to anything you want.

Metz, you know how to upgrade standalones, tell me why anyone cant just upgrade remotely through back door and then stop the transfer..leaving your eeprom thinking it is a toaster instead of a DVR?

I honestly believe you should have to dongle up to do an upgrade.. only safe way but real pain in the but, burn the prom so it cant be changed at all..otherwise yep you can kill a standalone, actually seen someone accidently do it, bet Rory has with the power problems over there, same goes for cameras.. some now. specially I.P. cams can upgrade through network for instance ours can use remote software to upgrade, not even hard to do small batch file to do this and stop half way.

Just because it is hard electronics does not mean it is less fallable, only means less likely to be attacked, because lets face it, takes bugger all to do.

One thing you might want to note.. some standalones allow the feature to auto detect them on a network...not a real good idea if a certain threat wants to know where your device is.. I ALWAYS turn this off, if you dont know what I.P. your using you should not be using it... and before everyone says "but a firewall" firewalls are only as good as the people who bring in CD's etc from home.

Wouldnt it be interesting to havea virus that polled the ports looking for Geo systems world wide, me bets there would not be many that are firewalled to prevent outside access, lots to be said for a VPN these days.

Yes I know I am paranoid, but lets face it, these things are being used in Defence Instalations etc and it would not take much to a do a batch file.

Regards,

GC

man i tried to learn nucleus but it was just taking too long .. :-)

nah i have them all on Voltage Regulators, bout the only electroinics in the clients places that have survived this long ;-)

Is the Space Shuttle controlled by an embedded machine or a PC? hmmmmm....If a PC is good enough for NASA, it must be good enough for security.. :lol:

back to PCs for a min, i got Live Update working with my soft now :lol:

Sorry not into bear's..love Beers just not bear's but hay whatever spins your wheels... :roll: Just kiddin..

Actually metz a failed firware update aint that hard to do, no code needed, nothing needed really I could simply scan port for DVR auto detect header, send email to company with Batch file attached, let them run batch file point to FTP site and download wrong flash.. not really hard at all.

yes..who would bother.. well i think that might change some day, do you have any idea how many Axis cams are on the net, hell there is webpage listings of them, geo even has a No-IP type listing to them, who do you know that updates their DVR's really..no one patches a DVR.. i once went to site to try to work out why webcam would not work, took me ages to work it out, someone had patched and added windows firewall.. i was pissed as wasted my time, but also glad he had done it.

would it please a manufactorer to have a virus that attacks his comptitors products?...hmmm me thinks so!

I don't know if it will evr happen and yes its not likely..only from apathy not from difficulty of achieving the task... there is no benefit at this stage..well not yet so no one will do it...but there was no need for a lot of virus's that attack cell phones either...another solid state O/S. but they still did it... it will happen one day.. hell half ofd us lower security setttings to allow active X, why do you think the warning is there about doing this.

Dont be fooled, if you have way out you have a way in, if it's designed to be changed it can be killed. but highly unlikely and I am the most paranoid man in the world.. kinda makes me good at my job though!

actually scott, it is my understanding that the PC's they use are actually embedded..and they are hardly connected to the net, like to see someone hack a space shuttle. I think thats a myth about PC's no one really knows man, coz you cant get onsite to see, if youve been inside a shuttle well..your luckier than me!

speaking of which ... did yall see this :o

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=EverFocus+EDSR+Applet&btnG=Google+Search

...and you can log into many of them. :roll:

ricochete must be getting a laugh outa where this thread went 8)

foe real ... i mean how many people actually change the user and pass anyway ... most of the neverfocus users are DIY'ers anyway .. or alarm installers :lol:

No kidding, we keep this up and we are all going to wind up at Scores making fun of the Union with Data over a few cold ones and a lap dance. And no Data, you can't dance on my lap...

scottj

You dont even need passwords, hell until recently all you had to do was go to INI file of geo and look for Password= xxxx sheesh, not rocket science, this is my point one day it will happen, so the more prepared we are the better, i ask my guys to get static I.P.s at home the Divar has a firewall built into it which is very bloody handy indeed.

Ask a simple question.... get a CCTV forum answer :P

ignore it all man, simply put, if you liek to muck around with it, get a PC based, if you dont want to play with it and it will sit in a corner get a standalone!!

I posted my assessment on a "true" embedded DVRs. Please refer to few posts above this and I wanted to focus on that, rather general embedded systems...

Being paranoid is fine - it makes someone to be very complete and there is nothing wrong with that... But sometimes you need to pull back from such mind set and smell the roses :D - The world is not as bad as you may think....

I have worked with many different embedded systems and yes, it is a pain to work with them. However it is even more difficult to work with PC based systems, as you have to configure the newer hard drive, format them, partion them, do all the updates, etc.... Yes, accedent do happen, but what is that have anything to do with taking control of the embedded DVRs remotely?

You can control the hard electronics BIOS if it is a flash BIOS and some of the embedded DVRs come with one - several that I do not want to note due to security reasons... However, if we are talking about BIOS chip that you burn with the code, well that is impossible to break remotely. It has never been done nor ever will regardless how hard your try - my engineering background confirms this statement without any hesitation...

I fully agree with you about the embedded system ability to autoconfigure is a bad form of a setup and if we are doing such installations, before we install, we always assign a specific IP address of customer's choice, setting up all the cameras and programming of the DVR and at the end is when we tie it to their networks...

look metz I agree about never done, hell if it did all mainboards could be toasters, but this is different, as you know MOST embedded true or not true systems have an upgrade facility this puts new code or changes the eeprom that stores the O/S (doesnt it) if this is interupted during an update, your dvr is about as usefull as a boat Anchor!

I may be wrong, no electronics engineer but if it can be upgraded by remote menas it can be damaged if the data flow is interupted, i dont really want to point out the OBVIOUS way in which you can do it, as this is not really a good idea, but I am yet to see a standalone that can not be upgraded and if it can be then it can be destroyed.

let me know if I am wrong.. I can Bear it :lol:

Scott, the shuttles have embedded systems and no hard drives - flash drives are what they use mainly... extremely expensive at the moment, but we will see them well may be in the next 15 to 20 years.... Anyone care for a flash drive :D

Levon

somehow i've become more confused, now which dvr is safe and easy to use
the ge dvrme ct is the one i think everyone can accept??? please i would like to here any objections or even other choices to this choice before i make a decision sometime this week. we have gone in so many directions but i think you all have given me a much better idea of what i should do, clearlyyyy i would not have be able to do this without your knowledge and experience.
thanks rick

If you can Bear it, then we can have beer together :D

Levon

Rick,

That is a very solid unit you mention. Sorry we go off in all directions at times (most of the time), did not mean to confuse you.

scottj

ricochet, great choice. You would be very happy with it. I have one set up if you want to kick the tires. I have crappy cams on there now (Pro-Video 627 and no lighting) and it is dark, but durring the day, nice shots. PM me and I will send you info.

Rick, buy the GE or the Bosch Divar or Dedicated Micros standalone.. they are the easiest safest and most reliable, if your in UK I suggest DM in Europe Bosch and in US GE..simple as that man.

Rick, if you can find (2) doctors that will agree on a procedure for the same patient, please let us know... In the security market, it is the same, you will never find 2 people agree 100% on which hardware and software someone may need for surveillance purposes...

If we confused you, we are very sorry for that... Your selection on DVMRe CT series is an excellent choice... It is an "embedded" system and it comes with many very useful features that you will use. Make sure that you get your 3 years warranty with it...

Levon

i see everyone concurs have enjoyed this and will be back i'm sure once i have this up and running
thanks rick

honeywell is H.263 compression it is the same DVR as ATV

Man, would you all bunch of old men stop whinning about dvr this dvr that, and start planning to see what retirement home you are going to live on :lol:

Herm, learn while you can from older man - it will be good for you :D

Which one are you residing at? :wink:

While you can't burn a chip carrying the BIOS out, you can render it unable to accept information if it is flash writable.

all i gots is left over card readers from you know what, if i had the time and money guys id test it out for you, send me a StoreSafe and ill see what I can do :-) I know i can i knows i can :lol: :lol:

Actually for any of the Kalatel DVRs, if you upload the incorrect flash you leave the DVR inoperatable ...