Hi all

We need recommendation for bigger system - I mean system with over 100-200 remote DVR (4,8 channels) with Central monitoring software allowing to manage all remote DVRs.

No PC solution - or rather no WIN based solution (could be on PC platform with Linux boards).

Very limited bandwidth so some good compression (best if possible to record locally with high quality 4 CIF - and transcoding for remote view).

POS integration.

We are looking for second league (class) solution - not first, brand names because of limited budget for this task.

Thanks in advance for any help.

so you are looking for 1600 channels of recording that can be monitored from a central point? what resolution? -4CIF on all channels?, frame rate, recording time, etc do you need

i would recommend mpeg4 or h.264(mpeg4 v10) compression for low bandwith

how limited is your budget? ><100k?

Bandwidth is very limited - UP TO 32 kB from single DVR (4-8 cameras) - so do not ask what frame rate we want to have for remote viewing - the questions is - what we can have max?

Because of very limited bandwidth - I think best could be system allowing to record locally (local DVR) with biggest quality (4CIF, 3-10 FPS from each camera), making remote transmitions with much less quality/speed (bandwidth performance from hundreds remote DVRs) - and if necessary - download interesting records from local DVRs HDDs to Central Monitoring in high resolution/quality. Additionally some kind of automatic database/records recplication during night from remote DVRs to main Monitoring Center HDDs.

Local storage ~ 2 weeks.

Yes I know - h.264 is the best - but do you know systems like that? Give us names if yes – just what I asking for in this post.

There are systems that are becoming available from korea, but at the cost that you are looking for, plus the amount of support that you might need, you are taking a chance. The tricky part of the POS integration, not a lot of manufacturers on the price level that you have has POS support.

no budget or mid range units with h.264.

In any event, you will need multiple monitoring stations to cover 800-1600 cameras.

Only thing mid range that I can think of that does multi site is WebGate inc, but it uses Wavelet so slow over the internet, though higher quality locally.

To cover that many cameras, and high quality, you are looking to spend major dollars.

If you could get a DVR with MPEG4 and an Activex or SDk, at least you would be able to make custom remote software to view multiple DVRs in multi screen displays as you need. Besides the big brands or PC based, thats the tricky part.

Rory

You could check out these guys, that amount of DVRs Im sure they would work out something.

http://www.active-tek.com/jun/HtmlPro/product1-hdr.htm
http://www.active-tek.com/jun/HtmlPro/product1-4.htm

I have found several adresses giving us chances to do it in responsible budget.
cybervision.com.tw, formosa21.com, etc - do you know names like that? Do you have any experience with them? They are from 3-4 class "league" - we are looking for second class.

formosa21 is VPON. They use embedded Linux Disk On Chip technology for their DVR's. I have a couple of them here collecting dust, but the VPON is a decent system. Effectively you are going to have a PC based system with Linux OS wihch will be your best best in my opinion for a project the magnitude of yours.

Softwell (another DOM company) offers the samething. I'm not sure what you mean by "3-4 league" scale?

scottj

Formosa21...a.k.a. Aegis Micro

Forgot to mention that.

scottj

By 3-4 league class I mean 3-4 class quality, support, possibilities, etc, etc, etc. I hope you know what I mean.

Softwell? - I know them very vell - they clamis they have POS solution - but finally - they have nothing (need some external additional PC - for database - with is not clearly specified how to setup theirs systems).

Alright, infrastructure time. Even if you don't go cheap, you're going to pay out the rear for bandwith.

You'll need a T-3. Or you will need several T-1s.

Assuming 200 DVRs. Assuming 256 kb/s (32 Kb per dvr converted to bits, 1 fps).

You will have incomming data at 50 Mb/s. This assumes no TCP/IP overhead.

You will need some serious routing gear for a T-3. The only real players in this market are Cisco and Juniper. Expect the price tage for thier gear to be high. Expect the support contract/person to be expensive.

None of what I discribe is "low bandwith".

You will need a fat pipe and all that goes with it. I don't mean to burst your bubble, but I get three or four people a week trying this. And you're going to have a pretty constant 50 Mb/s so when you work it out you're going to get screwed on bandwith costs.

Just so you know, i just quoted a client $75-100K for a 32 camera system, and you need 200?

I hope you have a decent budget for the cameras .. 200 cheap OEM cameras would be alot of headache when half of them dont work .. :?

Also, the remote video quality that i saw with the Vpon units were not that clear, but it was java inside a browser so the client softcould be different.

Also, whats a class 1 brand?

200 DVR's Rory, not cameras.....800+ minimum cameras.

The 32KB bandwidth is not going to cut it. You can barely get a AOL "Goodbye!" signal with that.
haha.

What global location are you located in alopu?

Darn, sorry, thats 1000 cameras basically, yeah my bad .. :-)

The Vpon looks pretty interesting though for video monitoring for the alarm company down here ... wanna send me a unit scott to test ? :-)

Rory

With four cameras per DVR your looking at 8k per frame. You will get 1 fps but 0.5 fps might be better. It's in theory possible but I wouldn't use MPEG or H.264. I would go for low resolution, low quaility MJPEG. If it's just for monitoring then all you need is:

White Male, Black tee-shirt, blue ford.

[quoteWhite Male, Black tee-shirt, blue ford.[/quote]


?? I think I saw you thumbing it on I-45 on CSPN

scottj

i thought i saw him at that hurricane party on Galveston :-)

yeah come to think of it, that was Thomas...I knew it!

But what was with him holding up that sign that said "Will do ANYTHING for Gas"

scottj

Nope, my wife used to wonder why I kept a spare gas can with gas in it. Now she understands.

I can be accused of being lazy but I do belive in overkill for disaster planning. And if you're planning for disaster when you see it comming then you're a little too late.

very true..When the earthquake comes I will be ready. I'm taking my motorcycle and cash, the girlfriend stays (too much luggage). haha

Good to see all is well with you and your family Thomas.

There is always image vault. Wavelet compression but with the IVMAX server we can view multiple dvr's remotely. I have this installed in many locations. www.image-vault.com

guys, all this has to be PAL equipment.

My suggested would be webservers with Dual Layer streaming connected to hard wired sensors, in this way you can use a NVR recording and Management package but transmit at very low quality MPEG4 for bandwidth reasons.

With Dual Streaming you can store on the webserver (yes thats right kiddies onboard HDD) the higher quality recording and in this way only retrieve high end video upon request or actual alarm event (sensor etc).

These solutions are not cheap but they do allow for manageble bandwidth because even the I frames etc can be manipulated and the Data transfer can be concise, it will also allow for motion only transmit to the NVM and NVR suites.

Probably not within your budget but, at most points you wont need a DVR so you may actually save.

Which product would you suggest ... with the onboard HDD ..

thanks
Rory

at 32kb there is still going to be network congestion.

We use on occasion A/V Webservers such as you describe (NVR). Some with local HDD which is genrally a 4 channel and the single channel units usually have no local storage. I can demonstrate for you what 32kb will achieve using one I have connected at our office presently.

Pay no attention to the camera quality, especially at 32kb (drastically degrades). This is at 320x240 MPEG4. We can take it down to 176x144, but the picture is significantly worse. This is set for 0.9 FPS. Since there is no 1:1 relationship between bandwidth and frame rate, it is a good example of what you should expect.

http://camtest.net-video.net

not password required, install ActiveX using IE (not Mozilla)

scottj

That is my point, with dual codecs ans dual streams you can send samll constantly and large is there if motion or alarm!

How are you planning on sending the video onan Alarm or Event condition, FTP? If so, FTP is a bandwidth hog and will only make it worse.

scottj

Since yall on the subject, I quoted 32 Acti Video Servers, they do D1 at 30fps, at 1.2mbs approx, 1.5mbps max, with MPEG4-ASP.

They are converting analogue cameras to IP to use with a 1U Server. However it is an internal network only at this time .. so internet bandwidth is not an issue just yet. I would be using MileStone software with it if they choose to use the 1 LCD, or if they choose 2 monitors at 16 each, which would be better, then either MileStone or even just the Acti Software that comes with the video servers. They come with an SDK so Ill play with that also :P

Also I would be using Wireless Access Points and Subscriber units with network switches . .. for at least 18 of them.

Hi all

Sorry for so late reply - I was out of my office up to now.

Rory - we are from Europe.

Thomas - I know it is not possible to make real time "Big Brother" from several hundreds remote DVRs. And client does not need it. I think it is necessary remote view from chosen ~ 100 cameras on single station (client does not to want to make very big Monitoring Center with dozens of monitors - just 2-3 PCs). But it is important to have possibility to get alarm events (with pictures) from all installed DVRs.

Can anyone add to this thread new blood (new names, solutions, experiences to be considered) – I’m looking for help.

http://www.marchnetworks.com/casestudies/sheetz/default.asp

bandwidth is still the issue, I would be willing to guarantee that the March setup required more than 32KB upload from each location of these Sheetz stores.

scottj

I heard that VPON has CMS "SecuWatch" allow to manage this kind of big scale DVR environment with good remote viewing video quality.

They have the knowledge to develop both hardware and software for DVR solution.

U may check with them!

Do you by chance work for them?

I have used this software for a while, SecuWatch can do auto scan for their VPON DVR.

Also, the most convenience thing for me is the easy set up for all setting.

As I know they have the software free for download upon you send your request to them.

I like SecuWatch, my clients like it too!

U can call aegis micro, which is VPON US branch office to ask for demo unit to try out.

U can also try CMS for free!
actually, VPON is really good at remote viewing!
I know that they have IP surveillance available now
their IP cam and video server works nice with VPON CMS

So who is Formosa USA? All I can find in the San Francisco is an import/export firm. Do they also have an security installation company on the side?

FormosaUSA is US branch office of Formosa21 which is the manufacturer of VPON.
FormosaUSA is also use the name as "Aegis Micro, Inc."
They are located in Los Angeles area.
you can either find their web below
www.aegismicro.com
www.vpon21.com

So the They in that sentence should be a We? Because one of the IP addresses you posted from is from an IP block assigned to them.

Because I'd hate to think that you were attempting to get around the adverting policy by astro turfing. I mean I'm sure you didn't to imply that you don't work for them with statements like this:

I am working for system integrator company, we are using VPON DVR kit.
But my brother works for VPON. That is why I am very familiar with VPON.
No intent to advertise VPON here

Then why does one of the IP address you posted from show as assigned to Formosa USA?

For the rest of this discussion, keep in mind that you've been caught. Now the question becomes, do you continue to tell lies and drag your companies name through the mud, or do you apologize for being a sleaze bag? Think very carefully.

Hey guys, let me put my two cents in this thread, if I may... :D

I have been following up with this thread for a while now and looks like there are some very good recommendations and yet, no complete answers... and chances are very good that “alopu” should give more info before there is a real solution... enterprise solution that is..

Lets take a look at the basics first of all before we go with bandwidth, cameras, up and down speeds, etc..

According to “alopu”, they want to have no more than 2 to 3 PC to perform monitoring as need basis... I did not read that all these systems remotely have to be connected to the front end all the time and please correct me if I am wrong...

Lets look at the front end hardware fist..

Two to three PC to handle view of 200+ DVR and I read above that it could take up to 800+ cameras.

Fist of all, we need to look at such hardware that can handle these many cameras... besides number of PC, how many monitors will it take? Lets say we give him capability to view four DVRs per monitor and lets say we give him a PC that will work and control 12 monitors (hopefully at least 20” in size)... and lets say each PC will work and control 48 DVRs... With this simple math with current available technology, you will need at least FOUR COMPUTERS AND 48 MONITORS to handle 200+ DVRs. This configuration hardware alone will cost in the neighborhood of $75K and higher.

To minimize your exposure on limited bandwidth, you can analyze and calculate numbers until you turn blue, but the fact is that you have to work with what you have... Will it be MPEG4, ACC or others? Of course, better compression DVRs will cost you more. I am not aware of any embedded DVR that gives you better than MPEG4 compression (hey guys, if this is incorrect, please educate us). Somewhere in this post I read that you do not want PC based system or was it no Windows based system... rather embedded Linux or some proprietary OS or compression.. Well, embedded cheap systems do not provide the best compression, rather ease of use and ease of maintenance... So, asking for cheap embedded system for this application is not the solution.

Nowhere here I read how much UP bandwidth each location has available... Can you please give us some more info on this?

I also read that this solution will be very expensive – well, expensive is a very relative term when facing project with this magnitude... If this project is real, then costs will be realized.

The project is very possible and actually is not that difficult, considering if the users have the funding and understand costs.

Recently we concluded installation of similar hardware for 122 locations (each location had 16 cameras each).. the front end equipment consisted with three computers and total of 32 monitors (two computers had 12 monitors each and one had 8 monitors) and each monitor contained connection to four store locations, as needed... In addition, we also had a separate computer to operate with POS pipe from each location. Of course, not all the stores were online all the time.. and the idea was to get onine right away as needed basis and make decisions on the fly according to information flow from specific store or stores...

Front end equipment received POS data transactions based on identification of exceptions that were programmed in these computers.. if the user required video available based on confirmed exceptions, then all they did was retrieve only the video clip and the exception transaction combined..

Sounds difficult? May be, but very much possible!... and the project that "alopu" is referring is not anything different than this concept above (I hope)... Bandwidth was a consideration of course, but not the essential part of the project. This customer allowed no more than 56KB total per location (through bandwidth throttling of their local routers at each location) and even then, no problems on the functionality of the entire system. This concept of solution was based on an ROI and that proper use would have pay itself off in less than a year maximum...and it does!

How expensive was this project? Does it matter, when ROI backs any expenditure of this size. So, what will help "alopu" to justify cost is to prepare some realistic ROI and then he can see if the owners are up for funding a project this magnitude...

As others have mentioned, this is going to be extremely difficult with the amount of bandwidth you have at each location.

A suggestion I haven't seen yet that may provide the best solution would be the New Nuvico APEX series.

The unique network transmission method of the Nuvico APEX constantly adjusts transmittion based on what is currently being viewed. Instead of constantly transmitting all streams at a set bandwidth the Nuvico will only transmit the image on the screen(i.e if your viewing 16ch's it will display 16 QCIF images since that is what is being viewed, while if you are viewing 1ch it will transmit at D1 on only that camera.). This dramatically reduces bandwidth for the streaming video.

I believe the more advanced CMS software(they charge for the advanced version) will support multiple monitors and the number of DVRs you need. Again these units will scale image transmittion based on how many cameras are being viewed at one time through the CMS software.

While this is a 16 unit, they have the AP-C1600(16Ch 480 @ CIF) and AP-D1600(16Ch 480 @ D1) series, you can use the AP-C1600 to record 4 cameras at D1 and the AP-D1600 for your 8+ camera locations.

These are not the most cost effective units, but they are probably the lowest cost units that may get the job done.