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cctv for convenient store
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| sandmatn2 |
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Posts: 1
Joined: 04 May 2008
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Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 1:24 am
Post subject: cctv for convenient store
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Hi everyone, I have put in hours of searching through the forums and I have not found anything to help me understand the components of the system. Here is where I stand:
I need an 8 channel system.
I want to be able to have remote access.
All of the forums I have searched through do not specify what quality I need. I have no idea what the resolution needs to be, what the frames per second needs to be, or what dvr card I should go with.
Budget is not an issue, although I would rather not go over 2500 for everything (computer, dvr card, cameras, misc. things to install). I want something that has decent quality but at the same time I don't need something fit to safe guard the president.
I have come across the hikivision, geovision dvr cards; however, I do not know what I myself need in the system. I also don't know how to match up the proper cameras to my system.
I wish someone would be able to help me through each aspect of designing a system and how each thing matches up with the other. I have found lots of info about individual components but that is chinese to me.
Thanks for your help
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| UMDRanger |
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Posts: 270
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Minnesota
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Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 7:49 am
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Sir - I understand it can be overwhelming and confusing. So let's break it down by component, and that should make it easier.
1. DVR: You can go with a "standalone" which is a dedicated DVR. That is all it is, and ever can be. Or you can make a PC DVR, which is where you put the Geovision, Hikivision, Advermedia, etc. card into a PCI slot.
Personally, I recommend Geovision, since it is what I have. And, "Andy" from Geovision is freqently on this site, and many members also use Geovision, so there is a lot of free tech support here. However, just like cars, everyone has their favs, and their reasons, so keep that in mind.
Geovision is loaded with features, most of which I don't use, but it's nice to know I could if / when I needed. They have this nifty little thumbnail feature that was very helpful in catching a dishonest employee. Instead of just reviewing all the motions for a certain camera, I was able to set up a specific area of the view on screen, where if someone passed it, Geovision would take a thumbnail linked to the video. This saved me a lot of time in reviewing video, since I could view all the camera's motion events, or just the events in this one smaller area.
I would also go with a 16 camera DVR, even if at this time you don't intend on putting in 16 cameras. You never know when you may want or need to add a camera. I would go for 30fps on each channel, so a 480fps view and a 480fps recording rate (480/480). Resolution 640x480, or whatever the highest one you can find nowdays.
2. Cameras: with low ceilings in a store, I'd go with mini-domes. You don't need IR, but if you want, it won't hurt anything. I am ofcourse assuming that if you close, atleast some lights are left on in the store. Also, get a varifocal lense, not a 3.6mm static. With a vari-focal, you can adjust the zoom to meet the need. If you have a 3.6mm anything close will be clear, but farther out, the edges get distrorted, and the effect just gets worse farther out. Do you plan on having any cameras outside?
Without knowing your floorplan, these are my recommendations for desired views:
A. Entrance: A good tight shot of the face of whoever is comming in. The entrance is a chokepoint, and is the best place to get the money shot. Make sure this is a top line camera since it will experience glare, bright sun outside, dark store inside, and all that jazz. I'd aim from the top of the door frame down to about the 2' level, and be maybe 10' from the door itself.
B. Exit: Maybe the DVR had a hiccup, maybe the bag guy was wearing a hat, maybe his entrance shot sucked, and frankly you'll want to see what he is exiting with. Again, a top line camera. This one can have a 3.6mm lense. And I'd put it right smack dap in the middle of the top of the door frame looking into the store, but again aimed down in the exit path.
C. Registers: Get a side profile that will show the drawer, counter, and both the employee and customer. This can often be a hard view to attain, but you will want all four. You'll want to be sure all the merchandise has been scanned, you'll want to see any weapon presented by a "customer", you'll want to see your employee rolling up a $20 and palming it.
D. Office / Safe / DVR: Make this a covert camera, likely a smoke detector. Then you can see who is monkeying with stuff they shouldn't.
E. Merchandise isles: Personally, I like to see every isle. But then again, my job is to catch shoplifters, so I need to see every isle. Pending the ceiling height, you can usually get two isles per a camera if it's a high ceiling, if low, go with one camera for one isle. Streching it more than that and you aren't going to see what you need to see.
F. Outside: I really recommend an outside camera. And dare I say, make this one a PTZ (pan-tilt zoom). You can set it up on a pattern, or make it look in one direction. But most importantly, you can move it to get a good license plate view as the car leaves. As you know, this information is vital, but having it clearly on video just makes prosecution that much easier. You can even control the PTZ from the registers (if they are a windows based POS) or from any other PC on the network. If not a PTZ, go with two outdoor cameras (either vandal mini-domes, or box cameras in outdoor enclosures. Don't go with bullet cameras, they can be manipulated far too easily).
3. Power: Go with a dedicated power supply. Altronix is a popular name brand, and has individual fused outputs. Since cameras can be 12vdc, or 24vac, be sure you buy a power supply that meets the camera's need. (Personally I prefer 24vac cameras, but 12vdc work fine too. I've just had bad luck with 12dvc as opposed to 24vac. Others have had the opposite). Run your power on 18-2 wire.
4. Backup Power: Get a good strong UPS and plug the DVR and camera power supply into it. Your alarm has a backup battery, but what good does CCTV do you if it dies with the lights?
5. Video wire: You can either run Cat5E or RG-59. Again, it's a preference thing. Since most camera runs will be to different areas of the store, I would likely go with RG-59/18-2 Siamese, where the 18-2 is bonded to the RG-59, meaning you pull one wire instead of two. Just makes things easier. If you go with Cat5E, you'll need things called baluns. They are not expensive, but do add up quickly.
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| CCTV_Suppliers |
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Posts: 665
Joined: 07 Sep 2007
Location: Southern California
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Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 11:46 am
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I will recommend embedded 8 position system with at least 500GB drive and minidomes indoors... Few of the minidomes should have at least WDR (Wide Dynamic Range) capability to allow filtering of lighting changes during the day. Otherwise, the rest could be high res color minidomes and should work fine.
There are quite of few manufacturers... What is important for you? Warranty? Ease of install, etc? Your budget sounds reasonable, so my suggestion will be to go with brand name complete system..
There are excellent options avail from companies called CBC, Sanyo and few others, all of which can meat your budget figures. Installation part, well, you can bring a local installer or can request to have all the pre-made cables, so that you can do it yourself...
Some more info from your end could result more specific hardware that I and other can recommend.
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| vin2install |
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Posts: 57
Joined: 30 Apr 2006
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Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 4:13 pm
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Go with a 8 channel 240 fps standalone that is stackable. Trust me, you dont wanna deal with driver issues and all the other stuff that comes with a computer based system. Plus if its stackable then it will be very scalable for the future.
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| si_kungs |
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Posts: 224
Joined: 16 Mar 2008
Location: Philippines
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Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 8:22 pm
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| UMDRanger wrote: |
2. Without knowing your floorplan, these are my recommendations for desired views:
A. Entrance: A good tight shot of the face of whoever is comming in. The entrance is a chokepoint, and is the best place to get the money shot. Make sure this is a top line camera since it will experience glare, bright sun outside, dark store inside, and all that jazz. I'd aim from the top of the door frame down to about the 2' level, and be maybe 10' from the door itself.
B. Exit: Maybe the DVR had a hiccup, maybe the bag guy was wearing a hat, maybe his entrance shot sucked, and frankly you'll want to see what he is exiting with. Again, a top line camera. This one can have a 3.6mm lense. And I'd put it right smack dap in the middle of the top of the door frame looking into the store, but again aimed down in the exit path.
3. Power: Go with a dedicated power supply. Altronix is a popular name brand, and has individual fused outputs. Since cameras can be 12vdc, or 24vac, be sure you buy a power supply that meets the camera's need. (Personally I prefer 24vac cameras, but 12vdc work fine too. I've just had bad luck with 12dvc as opposed to 24vac. Others have had the opposite). Run your power on 18-2 wire.
4. Backup Power: Get a good strong UPS and plug the DVR and camera power supply into it. Your alarm has a backup battery, but what good does CCTV do you if it dies with the lights?
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2. A & B. sir is auto iris ok for this application? can you provide a specification of the camera that you will be using for this application. also what resolution do we need? what is the fps needed to be set ?
3. is it ok to run a pair of power and connect the camera's power to the wire if it is on the same path of the other camera? or dedicated power for individual camera is better.
4.since low cost ups only produce rectangular wave, is this ok for our cctv system?
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| UMDRanger |
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Posts: 270
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Minnesota
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Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 10:39 am
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Definately want auto-iris on those areas prone to light changes.
You can "pigtail" power. It's just a matter of making sure the current draw is not so great that it blows fuses, and you do run the risk of loosing all cameras on that power run when/if that fuse blows... as opposed to only loosing the one camera if you ran one camera per a line. Personally, I pigtail frequently due to shortages of 18-2 that are beyond my control. I only had a problem blowing fuses when I first started monkeying with cameras, and failed to shut off the power before playing... didn't take long to learn to kill the power before I start wiring new additions.
Power Supply ________________ Camera 1 _______ camera 2 _____ camera 3.
as opposed to
Power Supply ________________ Camera 1
Power Supply ________________ Camera 2
Power Supply ________________ Camera 3
We always installed a regular UPS that cost about $80 for our power supplies and DVR when I used to install with a great company. Never had a problem with interference caused by it. But maybe I'm not understanding the question.
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| si_kungs |
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Posts: 224
Joined: 16 Mar 2008
Location: Philippines
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Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 6:59 pm
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i mean you rectangular wave ups can destroy the equipment?
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| UMDRanger |
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Posts: 270
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Minnesota
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Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 7:32 pm
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Still not understanding. Must be an electrical thing above my head.
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| si_kungs |
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Posts: 224
Joined: 16 Mar 2008
Location: Philippines
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Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 8:02 pm
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ups is a device that has a bettery and an inverter.
inverter converts battery power (direct currect DC) to AC (alternating current 220 or 110 but low cost iveter only produces rectangular wave. true sine wave inverter are not cheap. here is an photo of the waves.
 [/img]
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| rory |
Moderator & Founding Member
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Posts: 14311
Joined: 10 Nov 2003
Location: Bahamas
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Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 8:36 pm
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| scorpion |
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Posts: 2785
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Location: Melbourne Florida
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Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 9:14 pm
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For example those small devices that you can plug in to your cigarette lighter on the dash of your car have more square wave then true sine wave. You will notice that sensitve electronics will not work on those devices.
I took a car battery inside of our house during a major hurricane only to be disapointed that the Play Station II would not work. I really needed to play "kid" cartoons on DVD to keep them occupied while we were without power for two weeks. Two weeks later I finally found a generator at a Home Depot (the last one in stock. It had been hidden by other pallets in the stock room).
Boy does a generator make a difference!! We were without power for another two weeks. A month without power, and yet I still get a bill from Florida Power and Light for usage?????
LOL!
PS Nice graphics si_kungs!!
_________________
Scorpion
http://scorpiontheater.com/troubleshooting.aspx
http://scorpiontheater.com/contactus.aspx
QUESTION: Why is there always enough time to go back and fix it right a second time??
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| si_kungs |
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Posts: 224
Joined: 16 Mar 2008
Location: Philippines
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Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 9:31 pm
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| scorpion wrote: |
For example those small devices that you can plug in to your cigarette lighter on the dash of your car have more square wave then true sine wave. You will notice that sensitve electronics will not work on those devices.
I took a car battery inside of our house during a major hurricane only to be disapointed that the Play Station II would not work. I really needed to play "kid" cartoons on DVD to keep them occupied while we were without power for two weeks. Two weeks later I finally found a generator at a Home Depot (the last one in stock. It had been hidden by other pallets in the stock room).
Boy does a generator make a difference!! We were without power for another two weeks. A month without power, and yet I still get a bill from Florida Power and Light for usage?????
LOL!
PS Nice graphics si_kungs!! |
sir scorpion. Battery has a DC (direct current) output meaning it has a polarity. red terminal is the positive and black terminal is negative. it is like the power for the cameras.
power to the houses are AC (Alternating current) they don't have polarity. that is why you don't need to bother pluging in your appliances at home to check if the terminal is connected in the correct position of positive and negative. AC power is sinusoidal meaning the polarity in the wires switch from time to time. for US it is 50Hz and that means 50 cycles per second. it is like power for DVR, computer, and appliances.
generator produce AC so your appliance can run if it is rated 110V AC.
UPS has an inverter inside that converts DC to AC. so 12 V DC battery power will be converted in to 110 AC
also car dash board are 12V DC. 
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| scorpion |
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Posts: 2785
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Location: Melbourne Florida
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Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 9:52 pm
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OOOOOOHHHHHHHhhhhhhh!
Well that explains why I keep blowing other people's alternators on their cars everytime they try to jump start me. Sooooo. It is supposed to be black on black, and red on red???? Sorry to those people!!
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| sir scorpion. Battery has a DC (direct current) output meaning it has a polarity. red terminal is the positive and black terminal is negative. |
I did not know that!
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| power to the houses are AC |
OK? I will start stuffing sinus medicine in to the wall sockets. That should help!
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| AC power is sinusoidal |
I think I am going to win a lot of "false advertising claims". The companies here in the US put 60 hertz on the paper work! I gonna be rich!
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| for US it is 50Hz and that means 50 cycles per second |
This is what is say in my manual too. I think I have another law suit coming because when I stick my meter on the cigarette lighter it shows 13.8 volts!!!
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| also car dash board are 12V DC |
My whole world has been turned upside down!! What was up is now down, and now down is up!
I think I have it figured out now
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sine_wave
_________________
Scorpion
http://scorpiontheater.com/troubleshooting.aspx
http://scorpiontheater.com/contactus.aspx
QUESTION: Why is there always enough time to go back and fix it right a second time??
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| si_kungs |
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Posts: 224
Joined: 16 Mar 2008
Location: Philippines
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Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 11:01 pm
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| Quote: |
I think I am going to win a lot of "false advertising claims". The companies here in the US put 60 hertz on the paper work! I gonna be rich!
Quote:
for US it is 50Hz and that means 50 cycles per second |
for the frequency it should be 60Hz in the US. my mistake
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I did not know that!
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power to the houses are AC |
I mean the Voltage from the power outlet supplied by electric company is AC (alternating current)
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This is what is say in my manual too. I think I have another law suit coming because when I stick my meter on the cigarette lighter it shows 13.8 volts!!!
Quote:
also car dash board are 12V DC |
the voltage output is a little bit higher. since the equipment has +-10 % voltage tolerance, I think it will do no harm.
also when engine is turned off, power comes from the battery. but when the engine is turned on, the power comes from the alternator of the car.
sorry to confuse you
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| UMDRanger |
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Posts: 270
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Minnesota
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Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 12:13 am
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Thank you Si Kungs. That was informative. I can't say I've had any problems though, but I must admit I haven't had to review any video captured while being powered by the UPS.
I guess the next question is, has anyone noticed any problems?
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