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new construction home, security design
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| davey_fl |
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Posts: 16
Joined: 11 May 2008
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Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 12:41 pm
Post subject: new construction home, security design
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Hey guys,
New to the forum but not the technology, although I'm still a newbie in CCTV. We're building a new house and I'm wiring it for cameras (1 x cat5e, 1 x RG6, 1 x 18/2 per location). I've done a lot of reading on the forums and I am looking for some advice on which cameras to use. I'll attach pics of the front elevation, rear elevation, and floors of the house to get a better idea of what I'm trying to accomplish. For the external cameras I need non-ptz cameras that give a good FOV and decent picture day and night, possbily Extreme CCTV EX27s. I'd like to be able to cover the whole front driveway and front entrance area, but don't necessarily need to see license plates. Also, for the back cameras I'm really just trying to cover the back door entrance and basement window. All cameras will be fed into a PC-DVR (probably GeoVision) with monitoring software. For the interior cameras I'm trying to find some unobtrusive, possibly the Extreme CCTV WZ14s, I don't think I need PTZ. Budget, not high, possibly 3-5K (not including wiring, cameras only). Any advice you pros have would be greatly appreciated!
Thx!
David
Front 
Back 
Basement
Main
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| thewireguys |
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Posts: 286
Joined: 03 Nov 2007
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Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 3:26 pm
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I like the layout and the look of that house!!
_________________
"There is no point to spend the money on a video surveillance system if you can't identify the person or object with the system."
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| davey_fl |
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Posts: 16
Joined: 11 May 2008
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Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 4:17 pm
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thanks. by the way, this is in canada, so the external cameras will be subject to temps of -30c (-22F) in the winter.
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| C7 in CA |
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Posts: 714
Joined: 21 Nov 2004
Location: Nor*Cal
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Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 4:41 pm
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Yeah, Nice house. Where is the communications closet going to be? Are the cameras part of a larger structured cabling plan?
Is there a reason for RG6? With the distances you are looking at I don't think you will see any benefit over RG59. Especially considering you are going to want solid copper RG6 which I have never seen "off the shelf" which means special order. Most guys would pull RG59/18-2 (siamese) All the siamese I have seen was solid copper and the stuff is "off the shelf" at most electrical supply houses.
Looks like a fun project!
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Scott
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| scorpion |
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Posts: 2781
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Location: Melbourne Florida
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Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 5:20 pm
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| ak357 |
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Posts: 294
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
Location: Canada
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Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 9:58 pm
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| davey_fl wrote: |
| thanks. by the way, this is in canada, so the external cameras will be subject to temps of -30c (-22F) in the winter. |
Are u in Alberta ?
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| davey_fl |
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Posts: 16
Joined: 11 May 2008
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Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 10:54 pm
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yes I am in alberta. Camera placement problems...that's why I'm asking the experts! The closet is going to be in the basement at the end of the hall by the theatre. It has it's own cooling/ventilation system for all the equipment that's going in. It is part of a much larger structured wiring system going into the home, including whole house audio, 124 network drops, 96 RG6 drops, occupancy sensors etc etc. I was going with RG6 only because that's what was planned for the other rooms. However, I have read about the Siamese cabling on the forum and will change all the cameras to RG59/18/2. Any advice on cameras, placement etc is greatly appreciated.
Thx
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| thewireguys |
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Posts: 286
Joined: 03 Nov 2007
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Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 11:05 pm
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What equipment are you going to use for audio and automation?
_________________
"There is no point to spend the money on a video surveillance system if you can't identify the person or object with the system."
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| davey_fl |
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Posts: 16
Joined: 11 May 2008
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Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 6:17 am
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Audio is Nuvo Grand Concerto with 3rd party control of media servers via RS-232 and CQC. CQC for all of the home automation tasks. Everything will homerun into the server room with components mounted in a middle Atlantic rack. Video distribution is done via Sage.
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| scorpion |
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Posts: 2781
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Location: Melbourne Florida
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Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 8:12 am
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FRONT ELEVATION
LEFT CAMERA
You will have a straight down shot. You will only see the top of people's heads.
Do not use a wide angle lens in this position as wide angle lens has a distance distortion.
I would say lower the camera.
RIGHT CAMERA.
The Main building is recessed back from the garage. This camera will have an obstructed view of the driveway from the garage roof line.
If you are not watching the garage door area, and you are watching the approach to the garage area then you are good to go. I would recommend cameras that have zooming capabilities. When you want to watch a large area you will have that ability, and then if you need to zoom in to get more detail then you have that capability. Perhaps a PTZ so that you position to different parts of your property as you have new needs.
Perhaps you just signed up for a new credit card and you are waiting for it in the mailbox. You can zoom in to the mail box until it arrives safe, and sound. Then you can point it back to your driveway to watch the original area.
REAR ELEVATION
No obstucted views, but regular cams will give you distance distortion with wide angle lenses.
FOYER CAMERA
PERFECT!
GARAGE
What is it looking at?
Pointed at the house entrance. Good
Pointed at the garage doors, then you will need a second one on the other side. Wide angle is good for this area.
Recommend a camera for the equipment closet area.
FAMILY ROOM
Good placement to watch kids in the family room, bad placement if watching rear entrance.
LIVING ROOM
Good placement to watch kids in the living room, bad placement to watch the foyer.
DEN
Good placement to watch the den, bad placement to watch the balcony, unless you use a zoom camera. Recommend two cameras. One zoom for entrance, and one to watch the room if that is the view that you want.
Recommend that you put a camera in the "stair case". If someone breaks in to a second story window, and they go down stairs then this will give you a shot. When they leave the front door you will only have the back of the head. (Assuming that they are not wearing a mask).
Think of having a grand party, and a guest who does not belong where they should not be and takes valuables.
Is there a third floor?
Where is the master bedroom?
Where are your jewelry?
Do you have a safe?
If you do not want cameras in your master bedroom then put your safe, and your jewelry in the back of the walk in closet, and your wife can dress in the front part without worry.
Use a straight down shot so that when drawers are opened to get to jewelry, or cash it can be seen.
Put a covert camera at the entrance to your master bedroom. No cameras in the room, but you can prove who went in.
Do you have hired staff? Maid, butler, cleaning lady, tender of potted indoor plants, saltwater tank cleaning staff, pool cleaning staff, gardener, ect?
Later on you may have a subcontractor performing work. IE A Painter, TV repair guy, CCTV repair guy, ect
For indoor covert I recommend these:
http://eclipsecctv.com/ECL-CPIR_hidden_camera.html
What do you think? What do you have to add?
_________________
Scorpion
http://scorpiontheater.com/troubleshooting.aspx
http://scorpiontheater.com/contactus.aspx
QUESTION: Why is there always enough time to go back and fix it right a second time??
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| davey_fl |
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Posts: 16
Joined: 11 May 2008
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Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 10:20 am
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All very good point thanks for making me think.
FRONT CAMERA:
Yes the balding spot on a robbers head won’t do me much good. I like the look of the discrete camera extremecctv shows on their residential brochure that looks like a switch (EB Series Facial Recognition), found here:
http://www.extremecctv.com/marketing/extreme_documents/ExtremeCCTV-residential.pdf
However, I can’t seem to find the actual camera on any websites.
RIGHT CAMERA:
What PTZ would you suggest for this location? A traditional analog or IP based camera? I know the IP cams get pricy fast.
REAR ELEVATION:
So avoid wide angle lens to reduce distortion? Do you have a recommendation on camera?
GARAGE:
Looking at the vehicles, not the entrance door. I’ll have to have one in each corner then to cover the whole area. Do you have a recommendation on camera?
EQUIPMENT CLOSET:
I will add a camera for this location.
FAMILY ROOM:
Not interested in spying on kids, more concerned with back door.
DEN:
Really just want to watch the entrance as there is several high priced pieces of equipment in this room. So a zoom camera zoomed on to the entrance. What type of a camera would you suggest?
STAIRCASE CAMERA:
Interesting suggestion and a good one. Will the discrete camera you linked to suffice for this area given the possible low light conditions?
UPPER FLOOR
I will include the 3rd floor layout. There is a hidden room accessed only through an armoire in the master bedroom closet where we have a safe going in, as well as monitors to view all cameras. All valuables will be kept in this room.
Third Flr 
There will be a cleaning lady and as you mentioned from time to time it’s possible there will be service people through the home. I like the discrete camera mounted as an occupancy sensor so I’ll add that outside the master.
I be interested to see what indoor cameras, other than the discrete camera, you pros would suggest? I had looked at the CCTV X14 but it’s not really that ‘discrete’. I would be nice to have an unobtrusive camera that blends in to the environment, possibly a small white dome.
Thanks in advance!
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| scorpion |
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Posts: 2781
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Location: Melbourne Florida
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Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 11:50 am
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LOL!
Glad to know that you are not spending all of that money on a one bedroom house!!!!
I am glad that I can be your "Devil's Advocate" to make you think.
As they say measure twice, cut once!
Once that drywall goes up you are pretty much stuck with the wiring where it is!
| Quote: |
| However, I can’t seem to find the actual camera on any websites |
They are a dime a dozen, and I do not use them as they tend to be over priced.
I have never used them so I do not know if they are good, bad, quality, or crud.
Therefore I will refrain from rating such a camera.
As I am in a lower tier clientle level, I usually have to be creative to keep a budget.
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I can give advise on analog PTZ, but you will have to refer to others in regards to IP PTZ.
I would say if you go IP, then go megapixal cams which should cover more area, and eliminate the need for PTZ cams.
http://eclipsecctv.com/ECL-SP460E_PTZ_CAMERA.html
http://eclipsecctv.com/ECL-SP560E_PTZ_CAMERA.html
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GARAGE:
Looking at the vehicles, not the entrance door. I’ll have to have one in each corner then to cover the whole area.
Do you have a recommendation on camera?
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Depending on the "threat" level I would go as high as 4 covert cameras.
One on the far left, second between vehicles, 3rd between vehicles, and 4th at far right looking towards the openings.
You will need wide dynamic range cameras because of the light from the openings.
I want to see who is opening the doors, to snatch stuff.
I would want footage to prove that I was not the one driving the vehicle when your lic plate was turned in for some event.
This could be "borrowed" by an family member, this could be "stolen", and returned without knowledge by staff ect.
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Family room
I would put it on the stair case looking towards the dinette area.
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| Quote: |
STAIRCASE CAMERA:
Interesting suggestion and a good one.
Will the discrete camera you linked to suffice for this area given the possible low light conditions?
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I use this in bars, nightclubs, and gentleman's club! Very impressive.
Black light over head with an individual about 6 to 10 feet away will have a poor contrast if they are wearing white as black light illuminates white very bright.
These are the type of clubs where I have to close one eye when I drive in to the parking lot to give this eye "night vision".
When I walk in, and I cannot see, and I open my other eye, and I can see fine in the dark.
This is the environment that the camera is in. You will be very impressed!
You can hide these in baskets, bird houses, drill holes in entertainment units, hide them behind mirrors ect.
http://eclipsecctv.com/Mini_Board_Cameras.html
http://eclipsecctv.com/hidden_surveillance_cameras.html
You can use small mirrors to create a 90 degree turn so that the camera can be mounted in a way that allows it to see a different direction.
Think of a periscope.
Use mirrored window tint to create mirrors for covert cams.
Outdoors use birdhouses, dog houses, fake pump houses, or what ever your decor your yard has.
If it has an asian theme then think bamboo products.
| Quote: |
I be interested to see what indoor cameras, other than the discrete camera, you pros would suggest? I had looked at the CCTV X14 but it’s not really that ‘discrete’.
I would be nice to have an unobtrusive camera that blends in to the environment, possibly a small white dome.
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For cheap jobs I just use simple bullet cams. For highend I might use a cam that has zoom contolled by Pelco D protocal.
http://www.samsung-security.com/Portals/0/GVIProductImages/350/SCC-931T_Spec.pdf
If you take a box camera, or a bullet cam then find a dark recessed area. I would have you take a book shelf, and not paint it white.
Paint it in dark cherry wood, or even better do the top shelf in black. Paint the camera black, and it should get "lost" in a "cave".
Black camera in a dark recessed area is great as there is no contrast to see it.
Hide cams in potted silk plants. Have you ever lost your cars keys right in front of you because of all of the clutter?
When you concentrate then you can make out your keys? Hide your cameras in plain sight in a bunch of clutter!
_________________
Scorpion
http://scorpiontheater.com/troubleshooting.aspx
http://scorpiontheater.com/contactus.aspx
QUESTION: Why is there always enough time to go back and fix it right a second time??
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| davey_fl |
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Posts: 16
Joined: 11 May 2008
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Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:38 am
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I'm resurrecting this thread as I'm about 2-3 weeks away from starting the cabling. I will be using the discrete cameras within the home (those that look like a motion sensor) and I'm wondering how you guys install the cabling? Do you put a sing LV box behind the motion sensor with a plate over it and a hole in the center? I'd like the install to be as clean as possible with only a small 1/2" diameter hole behind the sensor that the wires would come through. Just not sure how to get to those wires buried in the wall once the drywall is up. Suggestions? thanks!
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| davey_fl |
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Posts: 16
Joined: 11 May 2008
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Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 7:42 am
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well after 3 weeks of cabling by myself, a hospitalization due to pneumonia, and a lot of cabling and late nights the house is now totally wired for network, sound, automation, and yes, cctv cameras. There are 6 outside cameras and 12 inside cameras. All drops received RG59/18/2 and CAT6. Man that was a lot of work! I'm still getting over the sickness but I'll have to start looking into cameras at some point and seek the expert advice on these forums. Thanks for the feedback thus far.
David
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