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Gas Tank Control
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| 3RDIGLBL |
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Posts: 112
Joined: 27 May 2008
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Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 6:41 pm
Post subject: Gas Tank Control
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I have a project in the works where the customer currently has a number of cameras installed by us. He now wants an access control system so we are putting together the list of equipment required.
Here is one that is new to me but it is possible and I think I know the answer. He has a large fuel tank with no current access control on it. Anyone can go by at anytime and fill up on Diesel fuel and he will have no knowledge of it. Cameras have not been installed at this spot yet because of his request to wait until a new structure is built there, couple weeks now until completion.
Anyhow. To operate the pump one just has to simply flip a light switch type switch. I need to put a proximity reader in here so the drivers can pass there fobs over it and start the pump. So the way I see it is using a low voltage activated relay to pass the 120VAC to start the pump. I need this relay to hold there until the off button is pushed so I plan to put a big red stop button there on the panel for the operator to deactivate the pump.
Anyone know where to look for relays I would need for this? I can find them and figure out how to wire it all up but maybe someone has experience here with a simpler approach.
Thanks
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| thewireguys |
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Posts: 283
Joined: 03 Nov 2007
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Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 10:52 pm
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You can use the button but can call also setup a timer. Figure out how long it should take to fill up the tank and add 10mins so if they don't hit the button the pump will shut off.
Is there special type of relay you need to use around gas?
You could do something really slick with a Isonas reader and Axis ip camera.
Anytime someone swipes the Axis camera could email him a couple of images to his cell phone.
just an idea
_________________
"There is no point to spend the money on a video surveillance system if you can't identify the person or object with the system."
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| 3RDIGLBL |
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Posts: 112
Joined: 27 May 2008
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Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 7:36 am
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Very cool what can be done I've been reading a lot into that. I could have our current DVR do the same by triggering an event through a sensor tied to the access control and having it record an email the owner. Don't think he cares about all this he only cares about being able to review when and who has been taking gas.
As far as the special type of relay, I will be installing a secure box on the structure surrounding the pump so it will not be directly near the tank and pump itself. There will not be a problem with the relay where spark could cause a problem and if anything it will be safer than the already on off light switch they have mounted near the tank now! 
Any experience with relays and access control?
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| scorpion |
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Posts: 2718
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Location: Melbourne Florida
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Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Post subject:
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This is my favorite one!
http://eclipsecctv.com/ECL-ACC950_door_controller.html
You will love it because it is a "one up unit". In other words you do not need a panel somewhere, and install stuff all over the place. This has everything inside!
All you need is power to this device, and power to your maglock, or in your case the relay.
http://cctvsupportsite.com/
Look to the upper left where you see manuals, and software, click on ACCESS CONTROL
Scroll down to ACC 950
Click on Manuals, and Diagrams
Click on
acc950_userguide-1
This will show you how to wire the system!
Click on this for the complete manual
ACC-950v3 Manual 05 with quick guide
Keychain Prox "card" for drivers.
http://eclipsecctv.com/ECL-ACC230_proximity_card.html
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Maglock will hold a door closed when it is energized with 12 volts. When you waive your prox card then the device releases the 12 volts (turns it off), and the door opens, and then it reenergizes the maglock locking the door.
You can get what they call a "digital" relay. It uses opto to isolate.
You can use a 120 volt relay that is controlled by 12 volts therefore no spark from the relay itself.
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Here is a trick. Put a red strobe light on the pump. When it is activated it will flash. Your drivers will be annoyed, unless you can put it somewhere where it is not in their eyes.
An unauthorized person will have a panic attack as they may think it is alarmed!
If there is a "lookout" it will def freak them out!
What do you think?
_________________
Scorpion
http://scorpiontheater.com/troubleshooting.aspx
http://covertsafes.com
QUESTION: Why is there always enough time to go back and fix it right a second time??
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| 3RDIGLBL |
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Posts: 112
Joined: 27 May 2008
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Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 11:06 pm
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Thanks for the replies scorpion.
You have a really cool idea. What I plan to do is set it up so the overlooking camera will record on access activation. Not too much will happen at that pump without the owner being aware.
I should mentioned I need prox readers that are industrial to operate -30 or more temps. It gets really cold up here in the dead of winter.
Also how do you all handle power outages. What if all the doors are access controlled and the power goes out for hours. A battery backup system will only last so long. There employees will no access to the building and the PIR exits will probably fail to function as well. I have not figured out a solution here but there must be a solution if lot of folks are getting access systems.
Thanks.
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| scorpion |
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Posts: 2718
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Location: Melbourne Florida
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Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 7:40 am
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I only do small jobs so I cannot truely answer those kind of questions.
I might do a car dealership, car rental, doctors office, or a fastfood restaurant where they are only locking one, or two doors for employees only, or to keep customers in a "lobby" area.
You have to plan each job to it's own needs.
If power goes out you do not want to use fail secure devices as the doors remain locked, and you cannot get in, or out.
In a cash room, you would not want to use fail safe devices as then the door would be unsecured, and so would the cash.
Most of the jobs that I do the doors work like they normally would work without the access control system.
The only problem to exit/entrance would be automatic doors such as at supermarkets, and such. They would not work without power anyways, so there would have to be a secondary door in the plan.
Without the access system you use the dead bolts to secure doors, and you still have door knobs to get in, or out, and with the access system you are taking your security to a higher level.
A door can be physically unlocked, but you can still keep the public out as they do not have a card to swipe.
A large multidoor system is a whole different breed, and not to be left to the "DIY". There are many codes, and regulations once you get to large multidoor systems.
On large multi door systems it would knock your socks off if you saw how many wires you would have to home run back to a panel!! YIKES!
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This can be used for a small system for small power outages:
http://eclipsecctv.com/ECL-PS8DCB_power_supply.html
or you can use this to custom make your own system:
http://eclipsecctv.com/ECL-MX12070_rechargeable_battery.html
You can always use Photo cells to keep a system charged up here in Florida.
I have seen rooms stacked with marine style "car" batteries!!
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You will need to find someone who installs in that kind of environment.
Equipment might be rated for that temp, but an installer is going to really know what is going to survive, and what equipment has "personalities" at the extreme weather.
_________________
Scorpion
http://scorpiontheater.com/troubleshooting.aspx
http://covertsafes.com
QUESTION: Why is there always enough time to go back and fix it right a second time??
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| thewireguys |
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Posts: 283
Joined: 03 Nov 2007
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Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 9:52 am
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The Isonas reader is Panel free like the on Scorpion recommended. But the best part is you on have to run one cat5 home!!!!! In standalone mode the reader can store 64,000 users and 5,000 events. One Isonas reader with POE injector is cheaper and alot easier to install then a normal panel system.
There is 12volts @ .5amps to power the strike or maglock ( or in your case a relay) all with one cat5.
_________________
"There is no point to spend the money on a video surveillance system if you can't identify the person or object with the system."
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| jeromephone |
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Posts: 306
Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Location: ST Joe , MI
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Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 9:09 pm
Post subject:
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why go to all that trouble? why not buy a pump with built in card reader/prox etc? I would think the fuel pump vendors would have this in place as we have had unattended commerical fueling stations for years.
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| scorpion |
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Posts: 2718
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Location: Melbourne Florida
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Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 9:39 pm
Post subject:
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| C7 in CA |
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Posts: 714
Joined: 21 Nov 2004
Location: Nor*Cal
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Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 8:53 am
Post subject:
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| jeromephone wrote: |
| why go to all that trouble? why not buy a pump with built in card reader/prox etc? I would think the fuel pump vendors would have this in place as we have had unattended commerical fueling stations for years. |
Where's the fun in that? 
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Scott
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| UMDRanger |
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Posts: 270
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Minnesota
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Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 10:13 am
Post subject:
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| scorpion wrote: |
A large multidoor system is a whole different breed, and not to be left to the "DIY". There are many codes, and regulations once you get to large multidoor systems.
On large multi door systems it would knock your socks off if you saw how many wires you would have to home run back to a panel!! YIKES!
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Pending the system you go with, there aren't any extra wires that need to be home runned. I know with Millenium Group systems you can daisey chain the power and data.
But I agree, multidoor systems are a whole nother breed, and are definately not for DIY without prior experience.
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| 3RDIGLBL |
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Posts: 112
Joined: 27 May 2008
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Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 9:28 am
Post subject:
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I've looked through the links you folks have left me but the only thing I see as an issue is my customer is not a very tech savy person. I need a really easy to use interface where he can easily look at the access logs and add and remove employees.
What will happen with the solutions here is that I will get calls whenever he wants to do anything with it because he will get confused. The only solutions I think there are is going with a PC based access control system?
Any experiences with easy to navigate access controls systems?
Thanks
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| C7 in CA |
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Posts: 714
Joined: 21 Nov 2004
Location: Nor*Cal
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Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 10:08 am
Post subject:
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| 3RDIGLBL wrote: |
my customer is not a very tech savy person. I need a really easy to use interface where he can easily look at the access logs and add and remove employees.
What will happen with the solutions here is that I will get calls whenever he wants to do anything with it because he will get confused. |
If you can find something he can understand that is great. Your best bet is probably as jeromephone mentioned. Talk to the companies that make cardlock equipment.
But if you can't find a system he understands is that a bad thing? I rely on my "Moves, Adds, and Changes" service calls. It's the icing on the cake. 
_________________
Scott
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| 3RDIGLBL |
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Posts: 112
Joined: 27 May 2008
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Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 11:06 am
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Well he suggested the fuel pump. The fuel pump is only one part of the project. I don't want one system for the fuel and another for the door access.
I need a full rounded system easy to navigate for the customer. I do hear you about service calls, however, where I live people are cheap to begin with so I'm lucky to even find someone interested in access control  so the easier I can make it the more word will get around about it.
Thanks
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| thewireguys |
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Posts: 283
Joined: 03 Nov 2007
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Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 5:19 pm
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