Hello everyone my name is Tony, I'm new on the forum . I'm in the process of setting up and my new business which 3000sq. ft. With indoor/outdoor seating areas. The total seating is 150. There will be 2 POS stations/locations. Will need for sure at least 1 if not two heavy duty, high quality, long reach-capturing outdoor cameras. The rest will be a combination of dome/fish-eyed cams, and straight cams for indoors.

I've had someone survey, examine and study my location so I had the material list, schematic-setup of all the cams and where they should be positioned. But the quote I received was outrageous, over $ 15.000!!! I cannot afford that, so I'm taking the independent route. I have been doing much online reading, researching and cross referencing. Most of my options lean towards getting a decent/satisfactory system off ebay. I'm not in the mood of grouping parts from here and there, and trying to make up my own system. I rather just buy one decent/average system which will still provide me good quality and have all the parts that I need in one package. Now my questions are :

- What are the Pros and Cons/differences of having a Dvr recorder compared to recording on a PC-tower?
- Should I be concerned with the whole digital/megapixel vs analog cameras? Is there that big of a difference? I want to be able to stream the videos live off of my wireless internet signal when I'm away from my business if that helps.
- Does Sony produce any good systems/cameras ?
- Also why is Samsung looked down upon when it comes to their DVR, CCTV systems?

Here are a few deals that I've been looking at on ebay, please take a look and let me know if these are decent systems or garbage. My budget is within the 1000-2500 $ range maximum. I don't know any other online forums that specialize in CCTV's. I hope you guys can help me out, and provide some honest feedback. I am seeking for quality, just not the "greatest" Thanks, here are the links :

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/16CH-DVR-Surveillance-Security-CCTV-System-Sony-CCD-1TB-/260832745656?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cbad7d8b8

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/ALD-1600H-B1-CCTV-Security-System-16-cameras-/200657506646?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2eb81e9156

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/16-CH-Channel-CCTV-SONY-CCD-Night-IR-Security-Camera-Surveillance-DVR-System-CBG-/360389207860?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item53e8dee734.

And here's a megapixel one, that seems good. Only thing is that it's much pricier than what I can spend :

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/4-Camera-CCTV-Elite-Series-NVR-Megapixel-Surveillance-Security-Camera-System-/260906654830?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cbf3f9c6e

If you think that quote is expensive, wait until you put your eBay system together... then start running into headaches with busted gear, parts that aren't what they claim to be, exaggerated advertising claims, and useless post-sale service.



If it's a reputable integrator, that quote will include warranty on the installation itself, and plenty of after-sale support and service.

One of our major clients is an upscale restaurant chain, so I'm quite familiar with the type of systems suited to these things. The last site we did was about 120 seats, and we ended up with 30 cameras in the design (and two more added after they opened). Of course, it WAS two floors, and these guys want 100% coverage of public areas: they went the cheap route before, with crappy IR bullets in a few "junction points" and a few in the kitchen... then found too many incidents were getting missed, and what they did record, wasn't very good quality.


Watching what?


"Package" systems have issues of their own, not the least of which is the fact they don't suit specific cameras to specific needs... something that's particularly important in a retail situation. They also tend to be low-quality cameras with lousy low-light performance (which can be critical in a restaurant) and compensate for it with cheap IR.


This has been discussed and debated extensively here. In general, PC systems tend to be more configurable and flexible in the long run, especially when it comes to adding storage.


Here's an analog camera recording at CIF resolution (352x280) in a liquor store:



Here's an IQEye IQ511 1.3MP camera mounted right above it (click for full-size image, as the forum shrinks it for display -note the cheap dome in the bottom-left of the frame):



Over in their attached lounge, this is the same model cheap dome recording at D1 (720x480):



And this is the same model 1.3MP camera mounted right beside it::



In our latest restaurant job, this is an analog camera recording at D1 at one end of the upstairs lounge:



And this is a 2MP dome at the other end of the lounge (again, click for full size):




I don't know if Sony makes CCTV cameras at all any more, and even when they did, they were mid-grade at best. When you see "Sony" listed on eBay cameras, 99.999% of the time it only means the image sensor itself is made by Sony - it's probably a low-grade sensor, and that speaks nothing to the quality of anything else in the camera: there's a LOT more to what produces a good image than just the name on the sensor.


They're traditionally not very good.


That's only a four-channel system, vs. 16-channel for all the others you've listed. How many cameras do you actually need?

Honestly, you're not going to get ANY level of quality from 16-camera package without starting near the top end of that price range. A number of cameras in the $100 range that should do for starters, and a few different 16-channel DVRs that will come in under $1000.

This is the camera CNB VCM-24F I would highly recommend (we use these extensively in our restaurants) - a bit more expensive, but worth it for their low-light image quality.


BTW, none of the cameras listed on your fleaBay links could be considered "long reach" - the ones in the first link, for example, list 3.6mm lenses for the indoor cameras, which gives you a reasonably wide view, but not quite enough to completely capture a corner mounting. The outdoor cameras are 6mm lenses, which aren't really wide enough to capture a large area, and not long enough to get very much detail... and none of them are adjustable. The CNB cameras, by contrast, include 2.8-10.5mm varifocal lenses, which let you adjust the area of view anywhere from nearly 90 degrees, to around 30 degrees for those close-up detailed shots.

You've got to be kiding me, with a 1000-2500$ budget for a 16 camera system you expect something "which will still provide you with good quality"? So you are opening a new restaurant that sits 150 people, but you would like to spend just $1000 on a 16 camera CTTV system??



I do also think that 15.000$ might be way too much to spend, and that you can get a good system for less than that (of course you could also be spending 15.000$ and geting an awesome system). But for a 1000-2500$ system, maybe it would be way better for you to start just with a good 4ch system, and fill up the rest of the place with fake dome cameras.

cameras are counterfit, , only 14 cameras were sent not 16. 2 cams not working Buyer: Member id 5staxxxxx ( Feedback Score Of 25) 16-Apr-12 22:15
16CH H.264 DVR Security CCTV System 1/3" Sony CCD In&Outdoor Cameras Any Combine (#280758898219)

your ebay listing has only been on ebay for 2 months and already has 57 dont deal feed backs.
Take a Read and if you want to send him another $1.600 then you need medical help. and i dont mean that to be nasty am helping you save what is close to your full budget
and the guy is not in the usa like he says he is http://feedback.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dl ... gative_365

see even from one of your own ebay links you are going to loose your budget from the start. also with a ebay check you will see you are buying from china and not usa.



the last link you posted is an old system (Dahua) and was only out for a short time.

your budget is low for a 16 way with two POS inputs. but you dont need to install everything in 1 go if you are doing the install yourself.

start with a good dvr good cables and 8 cameras and add as and when you can ...... just install cat5 runs on first install even to places you will be adding cameras later and you will soon have a good system.

Thanks for all the well matured and honest advice! You raise some very good points about the whole ebay risk.

One question...Considering I'm in Canada, would buying all my equipment from a US retailer be ideal/economical price wise?...I mean there'll still be shipping charges right? (is it not gonna add up?) Plus I would have to install these myself if I toke that route, where as my local guy would take care of all that here, if I still bargain and decide to go with him.

I'm in Canada, I've also bought some equipment from the US and had no problems with the shipping or any cross-border issues.

It's hard to really say if you're getting your money's worth at $15,000 without more details on the exact equipment you were quoted, but for that size of install, it doesn't sound out of line. The DVRs we typically use list for $3500-$4000 for a 16-channel system; cameras generally run around $250-$300 ($4800 if you figure 16 cameras at the top of that range); and for installation, you're frankly looking at two guys for a full week - if you figure, for easy calculation, the integrator charges $75/hr per person, two guys for a full 40-hour week is $6,000 right there. You're alrady at $14,800, and that doesn't include incidentals like cable, connectors, etc.

You could cut the equipment costs in half using something more basic and doing the work yourself... but remember, if it takes two pros a full week to do a job like this, it's going to take you a lot longer.

15k sounds pretty fair to me.

For an installed quality system from a quality company you should spend around $1,000.00 per camera. That estimate includes camera, recorder, monitor, UPS for the DVR, power supply and a lock box for DVR. 16 cameras = $16,000.00

I have done a lot of systems for less but it usually involves a customer who is willing to take the time to understand what they are getting for the money. Find a company that will put together a custom system and not a package. Tell them a budget and see what you can come up with.

You should see a demo of any system that you are willing to drop this kind of money into. If the company can not provide an onsite demo dont waste your money with them. This will keep you from buying a system that will die in two years

Dont waste time and money putting a ebay system together. You have to put a value on your time as an owner.

I have to agree. $800-$1000 per camera for a professional installation should be the norm. by all means buy your cameras from ebay or costco, drape the wires around the place, learn how to make bnc or cat 5 connectors and hope it works. I know how to solder pipes but i don't do plumbing because i don't want to take a chance on a leak. If you want a quality installation and final product call a pro.

OR save your money and a load of heartache and get a professional in.

Running a restaurant does not pre dispose you to installing CCTV like being a CCTV engineer does not pre dispose me to being a chef. Concentrate on making your diner's experience a good one, and let a professional do the job.

Remember, any job done on the cheap is just that CHEAP

Someone with a small budget will have to go with a cheap package. Samsung has some good analog kits for the money. $1000 for a DVR and 8 cameras. That's like getting the DVR for free. But it won't even compare to a 1.3MP network setup in picture quality.

Analog Pros: Price and the camera wires can be ran much longer(up to 4000ft with Balan) than the 330ft(longer with PoE extenders) network limit. No network knowledge needed.

Network Pros: Image quality and system control.

I just quoted a 16 network camera system to a hospital. This is my cost on the system:

16 channel NVR 2MP/CH 4TB Storage = $1,900
1.3MP WDR Dome Camera = 13 x $400 = $5,200
2MP WDR Dome Camera = 3 x $700 = $2,100
Cisco PoE Switch = 2 x $500 = $1000
Surge/UPS = $300
Plenum CAT5e = 6 x $200 = $1,200
Labor = 160hrs x $50 = $8000
-----------------------------------------------
Total Cost = $19,700
25% markup makes the sell price = $24,625

So $15,000 is very normal for a good network CCTV system.

I never price individual component parts of a system, I dolist everything but without individual prices, I list labour as no of man hours and then a nom sum f b7utor installation materials but again no prices until the total net price, t total incl tax and deposit then finalpayment on completion.

I do not think your prces are too high and your labour cost is low unless you are allowing for contingency in your number of man hours.

Using the above method of quoting has helped me to move from winning just 1 in 10 quotes to winning 1 in 5 almost overnight. I found listing individualm prices, clients start to price check individual prices some which they like some they will have seen cheaper and then they will resent you not being cheaper than b@@dy ebay on every item when actually if they are happy with your total price they aren't interested in looking any further.

Another advantage is, yoiu never know who they will show your quote to in order to get a better deal from the next dealer installer to quote then. This way the comjpetition really have no idea what you are charging other than overall price.

hope it is not a advertising post