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 Post subject: Advice on UPS backup power supply - DVR & 8 cameras
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:06 pm 
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Hi, I'm designing my first system for a friend and I will have a few questions I hope you can advise on, but first I wanted to ask about backup power.

The system is DVR & 7-8 external cameras with IR. I had a bash calculating the backup time:
Code:
8 Cameras at 12Vcc 450mA ... 8 * 12 * 0.45 = 50W
From website, the DVR consumes 25W
Total for system: 75W

Looking for a random example, I found the DirectUPS DP1000 1000VA 600 Watts UPS at more or less US$100 ....
Does this really mean:
Code:
600 / 75 ( * 0.9 for perfromance) == Around 7 hours

This is way more than I expected. Have I gone wrong in the calculations??

Creating an entire closed loop power circuit for the cameras seems like alot of work - though I'll have to lay the signal cable anyway.

Any really strong argument for having perhaps 3 smaller UPS rather than 1 big one?

Thanks in advance for any advice


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 Post subject: Re: Advice on UPS backup power supply - DVR & 8 cameras
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:39 pm 
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Nope, it doesn't work that way, the wattage of the UPS is the peak power it can supply, not for how long.

Take a look at a UPS selector here- http://www.tripplite.com/en/products/ups-system-runtimes.cfm to get a better idea on runtimes. I would just localize power at the DVR, it simplifies things greatly.

As long as the runs are not terribly long, you might want to consider using baluns and CAT5 cable, that way you have everything in one cable, and you could change later to IP cameras (assuming the runs are under 300 feet).

Another choice would be to use Siamese RG59U with 18/2 power wire in the same cable.


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 Post subject: Re: Advice on UPS backup power supply - DVR & 8 cameras
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:51 pm 
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Taking the 12V, boosting it up to 120V, only to step it back down to 12V for the cameras is extremely wasteful. I'd use a central power supply for the cameras that has its own 12V backup batteries, so when the power is out the cameras just run directly off the batteries. Then you can use a smaller UPS for the DVR (be sure not to run unnecessary things, like the monitor, off the battery side).

Something like this: http://www.enforcer.com.tw/EnforcerVideo/MODEL1_2.htm

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 Post subject: Re: Advice on UPS backup power supply - DVR & 8 cameras
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:26 pm 
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I have my dvr and monitor on the UPS. My dvr doesn't like a hard shut down at all, so when there's an outage I can do a soft shut down, in which case having the monitor to see that bit of navigation is helpful. I also have six cameras on the UPS as well. Doesn't buy me much time, but enough to shut down properly if the outage goes on for a bit. Tell you the truth, it's all hooked up and it doesn't look particularly pretty, like if everything was in a power box, but it works so I leave well enough alone. When I fiddle with things, even for an improvement- it always makes things worse. However, I'd take the advice above over mine, for sure.

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 Post subject: Re: Advice on UPS backup power supply - DVR & 8 cameras
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:21 pm 
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shockwave199 wrote:
My dvr doesn't like a hard shut down at all, so when there's an outage I can do a soft shut down, in which case having the monitor to see that bit of navigation is helpful.

If it's a Windows-base DVR, you can install the UPS software that will monitor the UPS status and initiate a proper shutdown automatically when the power gets low.

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 Post subject: Re: Advice on UPS backup power supply - DVR & 8 cameras
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:34 pm 
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You mean a dvr card? My dvr is a stand alone unit.

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 Post subject: Re: Advice on UPS backup power supply - DVR & 8 cameras
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:47 pm 
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shockwave199 wrote:
You mean a dvr card? My dvr is a stand alone unit.

Well, not a function of the card, technically... most UPSes can be connected to a PC that can be loaded with software that will monitor the UPS health and remaining run time, and among other things, can trigger a soft shutdown (same as clicking Start -> Shutdown) when the UPS capacity falls below a pre-defined level (for example, when there's less than 5 minutes' power left). Most such software can also alert you when the battery is close to failing, or if there are any other potential problems with the UPS.

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 Post subject: Re: Advice on UPS backup power supply - DVR & 8 cameras
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:51 pm 
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Soundy wrote:
Taking the 12V, boosting it up to 120V, only to step it back down to 12V for the cameras is extremely wasteful. I'd use a central power supply for the cameras that has its own 12V backup batteries, so when the power is out the cameras just run directly off the batteries. Then you can use a smaller UPS for the DVR (be sure not to run unnecessary things, like the monitor, off the battery side).

Something like this: http://www.enforcer.com.tw/EnforcerVideo/MODEL1_2.htm


Good point, I'll have a look around see if I can find something similar available around here. Cheers


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 Post subject: Re: Advice on UPS backup power supply - DVR & 8 cameras
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:13 pm 
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Soundy wrote:
shockwave199 wrote:
My dvr doesn't like a hard shut down at all, so when there's an outage I can do a soft shut down, in which case having the monitor to see that bit of navigation is helpful.

If it's a Windows-base DVR, you can install the UPS software that will monitor the UPS status and initiate a proper shutdown automatically when the power gets low.


The idea was a standalone Linux based DVR, running without monitor. There will be power outages, and they will drain the battery completely and there will be noone around to reset it. So .. I'll be wanting somehting with BIOS wake ... wake-on-lan or something.

I'm fairly handy with Linux, so as long as it will wake up and connect to the internet I am happy entering the system myself by SSH and fixing anything by hand. So either wake-on-lan or some BIOS setting. Though maybe I might have to build a system myself rather than buy a standalone (later I'll maybe ask you all for opinions on the models available here to see if you have experiences)

Cheers


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 Post subject: Re: Advice on UPS backup power supply - DVR & 8 cameras
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:16 pm 
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hardwired wrote:
Nope, it doesn't work that way, the wattage of the UPS is the peak power it can supply, not for how long.

Take a look at a UPS selector here- http://www.tripplite.com/en/products/ups-system-runtimes.cfm to get a better idea on runtimes. I would just localize power at the DVR, it simplifies things greatly.

As long as the runs are not terribly long, you might want to consider using baluns and CAT5 cable, that way you have everything in one cable, and you could change later to IP cameras (assuming the runs are under 300 feet).

Another choice would be to use Siamese RG59U with 18/2 power wire in the same cable.


Thought I had to be wrong. Cheers for the calculator, unfortunately available equipment here (Argentina) is pretty limited, not sure if any models I see are on this, so I'll have to get my pen & paper out.

Thanks for the advice on cables & wiring ... that was going to be my next post once I understand the backup power requirements and once I have some measurements of the distances.


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 Post subject: Re: Advice on UPS backup power supply - DVR & 8 cameras
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:39 pm 
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weeboludo wrote:
Soundy wrote:
shockwave199 wrote:
My dvr doesn't like a hard shut down at all, so when there's an outage I can do a soft shut down, in which case having the monitor to see that bit of navigation is helpful.

If it's a Windows-base DVR, you can install the UPS software that will monitor the UPS status and initiate a proper shutdown automatically when the power gets low.


The idea was a standalone Linux based DVR, running without monitor. There will be power outages, and they will drain the battery completely and there will be noone around to reset it. So .. I'll be wanting somehting with BIOS wake ... wake-on-lan or something.

I'm fairly handy with Linux, so as long as it will wake up and connect to the internet I am happy entering the system myself by SSH and fixing anything by hand. So either wake-on-lan or some BIOS setting. Though maybe I might have to build a system myself rather than buy a standalone (later I'll maybe ask you all for opinions on the models available here to see if you have experiences)

Cheers

All the standalones I've worked with fire up right away when power is applied, so that shouldn't be an issue. The difference is in whether they can do a clean shutdown under control of the UPS. Not sure about other brands, but APC UPSes have a Java-based control utility so they should be able to trigger a clean shutdown with any system that supports Java. A DIY Linux box should be workable... don't know about a standalone, though.


Edit: on the other hand, I've rarely come across a DVR, standalone or not, that had serious issues with a simple hard-power-down. Power surges are another matter, but shutting down from a basic power outage shouldn't be a problem.

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 Post subject: Re: Advice on UPS backup power supply - DVR & 8 cameras
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:28 pm 
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Yes to clarify, the hard shut down problem is an isolated problem to my dvr. Once or twice it was slow to come back up after a hard shut down. So I avoid it with a ups in line, which gives me time to get to it.

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 Post subject: Re: Advice on UPS backup power supply - DVR & 8 cameras
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 4:12 am 
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This should do it. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

One Megawatt of battery backup with two 1 megawatt generators.

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 Post subject: Re: Advice on UPS backup power supply - DVR & 8 cameras
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:55 am 
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Or just get Mr. Fusion...

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 Post subject: Re: Advice on UPS backup power supply - DVR & 8 cameras
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 11:16 am 
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Hey Smith.. Aren't those what they had in Jurassic Park? Hope they're no Dino's running around with the power out eating your cameras!! :lol:


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