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 Post subject: Re: Anyone got any ideas as to what this is?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:30 am 
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jesus man, you cant help but be condescending can you. And without even comprehending the problem. Let me ask this simple question then, if 16 cameras are in operation, and each camera has a MAX draw of .7 amp how would a 12 amp power supply not be sufficient? Since electrical rules are static math .7 x 16 = 11.2 and that would only be the case if every single camera was pulling its absolute maximum power all at the same time. Maybe the baluns are 1 pair for video and 3 for power, or maybe they are two pair and duplexed inside the balun it doesn't really matter, they are engineered, tested, and they work, they've worked on every camera I've put them on. HUNDREDS of cameras. I don't need an opinion of what you like in a balun, or what you don't it has no bearing on the issue that this cam has that I nor anyone else that has read this seems to have seen before. As I said I saw marked improvement using that cage as the only change, this is an RFI problem.


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone got any ideas as to what this is?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:14 am 
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Wow ..... 100s of cameras and you can't even wire up a balun

Industry standards is 1 pair .... The right way and the only way for a balun to work

Power ....... 16 at 10-12amp ........ You can't even figure that one out and over that distance.


Faraday cage ..... Well I can guarantee you are the first in the whole wide world to do it. Biggest load of crap ever.

And you call me condescending.......... And you can't even install to standard

Power supply ...... 0.7 amp over that distance on each .......... You have not taken into account surge or IR ...... 0.7 amp is useless


Let's do a pole


baluns 1 pair or 2 for video .............answer 1

power is 0.7 amp good enough for long distance IR. .........answer no.

Let's see what others say


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone got any ideas as to what this is?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:30 am 
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:evil: READ and quit jumping to irrational conclusions
the run is like 195 foot, .7 amp is the MAX draw of the camera MAX means MAX it WILL NOT CONSUME more than .7 whats the excess required to push on 195 foot of multi pair 24 awg THATS NOT RUNNING IR!? Its negligible. You came into my own post this time with your crap. Leave it! you're one of the type of installers that I come in behind and fix, spliced wires, stripped cat5 draped all around screw down baluns and the like. I tried to be nice but I'm over it. Go about your business and I'll correct this problem, since I've actually found the issue. Your input and OPIONIONS (not facts) are NOT needed and are COMPLETELY unwelcome!
and just for my jollies you go do your pole...............I'm sure your level on actual knowledge qualifies you for dancing on it
meanwhile if you would like to conduct a poll that's where you ask a group of people questions and get answers.


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone got any ideas as to what this is?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:54 am 
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libram wrote:
:evil: READ and quit jumping to irrational conclusions
the run is like 195 foot, .7 amp is the MAX draw of the camera MAX means MAX it WILL NOT CONSUME more than .7 whats the excess required to push on 195 foot of multi pair 24 awg THATS NOT RUNNING IR!? Its negligible. You came into my own post this time with your crap. Leave it! you're one of the type of installers that I come in behind and fix, spliced wires, stripped cat5 draped all around screw down baluns and the like. I tried to be nice but I'm over it. Go about your business and I'll correct this problem, since I've actually found the issue. Your input and OPIONIONS (not facts) are NOT needed and are COMPLETELY unwelcome!
and just for my jollies you go do your pole...............I'm sure your level on actual knowledge qualifies you for dancing on it
meanwhile if you would like to conduct a poll that's where you ask a group of people questions and get answers.




Trust me no one want you to come in behind them for you to fix

Can't wire a balun ..... Your own admition

Don't understand power your own admition

Faraday cages ....... That is the best ....


If you do a line up of 5 installers I bet I could pic you out of the line
You will be the one with tin foil on his head.



And the sad thing is you don't agree with install standards


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone got any ideas as to what this is?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:11 am 
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what standards first off , as far as I see most of you run around and do what you want with little clue as to how communications/electricity/TIE-EIA standards work. You wanna know how to actually install a cctv system over cat5 I'll make you a drawing so you can follow
DVR -> balun -> patch cord-> patch panel (now you're using actual standardized wiring)-> cable -> jack or rj45 end-> balun-> camera
NO Splices, NO split pairs, NO bull**** NO PROBLEMS. Unless something is odd.......like this
And don't start with where is the power it goes into the balun and you know it.
Are you a licensed low voltage tech? Are you a licensed electrician? Do you know the applicable codes and why we use them, have you been working with video and data transmission since its first inceptions of computer modems for data and BRI for video? I do, I AM and I was. So for the last time, beat it with your assumptions, and condemnations I have a friggin radio antennae 600 feet tall 900 feet from my camera blasting 50,000 watts at it with nothing in between and its not RFI and a proven technology that's only as old as Nicola Tesla is a tin foil hat. =D>


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone got any ideas as to what this is?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:45 am 
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Quote:
You wanna know how to actually install a cctv system over cat5 I'll make you a drawing


Please don't .....you can't even install your own right.

Quote:
don't start with where is the power it goes into the balun and you know it.


Wrong Infact it passes through the balun case nothing to do with balun.


Use a good balun use proper power supply and it fixes
0.7amp over that distance is your problem

But no 50.000 watts is your problem.

Would it be easier for me to explain it to your customer....... Save them having to go through the cost of faraday crap


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone got any ideas as to what this is?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:39 am 
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I'm going to try this one more time as rational adult. If tom cant handle that then I don't know what else to say. I posted this issue not because its just something to figure out but because its something odd, not normal, not anything that I've ever actually seen before. The issue is NOT the following as they have all been tried with other replacements with no difference. The camera, the baluns, the power supply, the cable, the cable route, the dvr input, the ir of the camera being on and or off, the camera having a ground loop both via isolating the camera from metal itself and a loop isolator, the lights in the area of the camera and cabling being off. There is obvious visual distortion that occurs if the cam is in IR or color, it disappears at specific times every day. There is an outside source causing the camera to behave this way every single day on a predictable schedule. This is not a hardware issue, its not an install issue, its an outside source that is consistent. Tom if you disagree, I will agree to disagree and lets leave it there. If you do however agree and can provide any constructive advice I will be as polite as possible.
As it stands right now there is an actual observable improvement with a cage, I will meet with the site and let them see the images, and them them decide if they see the same. If so they have the option of cam reposition perhaps an inch or two higher and further back under a steel deck can clear it , deal with it, or possibly try a filter if they MUST have that exact angle.

Tom you're also technically correct, a balun is a balanced impedence joint, however when power and data or video are pigtailed into a single device its ok to call it a balan even though its technically a power pass through to rj45 24-26 awg pairs over category 5e. That however doesn't really flow off the tongue so balun works ok when they are contained in the same structure.


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone got any ideas as to what this is?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:52 am 
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The problem is you don't even try and see if it works ....... You are obsessed with 50.000 watts from a tower ...........and to be honest like you have just said in your last post if you move the camera by a inch might fix it....... Sit back in your chair and think about that .


Something else you have posted 26 gauge cat5 ..... No repeatable CCTV engineer or network engineer would ever use that for an install ever Infact it has no reason to be in the industry anymore ..... We're am from licence does not allow it.

And that problem also takes you back to the 0.7 amp using that cable makes it worse.

Your using cvi cameras let me give you an example which might also let you think of your problem.

A building with 4 cvi cameras on each corner ..... Say the minimum is 1 amp each that's 12v 4amp power supply ...... Not big enough. It might do the job and show a little interference nothing to be bothered about. But look at why there might be a little interference....... Cvi need a little more amps when it starts to work....... Cloud cover cam 1 person goes past cam 2 car goes past cam 3 .............all 3 cameras need a little more amp ..... Your power supply is already at its max but as cam 4 is not doing extra work it's amps will drop going to the rest of the cameras ....... Cam 4 has lost amps and that will show as interference......... Well not interference just not enough amps to run properly

And it's the same with IR 4 cameras minimum 1 amp 12v 4amp power supply
No allowance has been made for power surge ..... Two cams switch on IR at same time the other two will show a problem ...... Only for a second or so but a problem.

Your system 16 cameras on 12v 12amp power supply only gives 0.75 amp each camera you are already at the max ......
You can under amp a cam but never over amp


And before you sort any of that out. It does not matter how you see it.....it is under powered and on wrong cable and for $10 more for a 12v 40amp 16way power supply giving 2.5amp each camera ...... But your cat5 will be hard at that distance....

But like in my first post ...... On that camera change balun for none rj45 type use 1 pair for video not two ( you never use 2) and the rest on power with Screw on power plug and use 1 12v 5amp power supply for that camera

Or go 24v AC at dvr end and convert back at cameras end .... That will also solve your problem


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone got any ideas as to what this is?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:36 am 
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Power loss over cable length, yeah its a real thing I get that but again this isn't a problem that comes and goes with activity, or IR usage, or anything else. if I said 26 and I was wrong then fine, I was wrong, truth is I don't pay any attention to my 5e gauge because its always belden or commscope, or another major manufacturer. I've been working with it so long I can tell by feel it its cat 5/5e/or 6 without lookin at the label. Maybe its 22 maybe 24 I really don't look since its not some cheapo cable, I wont use something that doesn't feel like it should and I don't cheap out on cable its what makes things work.


Last edited by libram on Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Anyone got any ideas as to what this is?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:57 am 
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libram wrote:
one thing at a time...... what you are saying is that a camera, that has a MAX draw of .7 amps will actually draw more than .7 amps when it switches to IR? Just wanna be clear.



Everything that has additional power pull like IR or filter move yes needs more power .....not a lot and not long term but it will pull more ..... Called surge


But you are missing the point. 0.7 amp power supply 0.7 amp camera ......yes that's a match.

But you have taken nothing into account ....... You have not taken into account cable length cable size (you say 26) and another you powered baluns (why buy baluns with lights on when it's never needed) there just cheap.

0.7amp at power supply ...... First balun power ...... 26cat .......second balun power ........ Will not give you 0.7 at camera. Baluns with a stupid gimmick lights that have no purpose.

Cheap baluns ....... 26 cat........ Power supply at limit ........= cheap install no room for any allowance...... Let's say in a few weeks you go back and replace a camera with a 1 amp ........ You can't


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone got any ideas as to what this is?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:22 am 
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regardless of lights or not its a UL listed approved power/video balun. Please see the edited post above about cable and here is the manufacturer spec sheet for the balun.
http://www.snbcctv.cc/UploadFiles/2012-2-16-141825.pdf
I'll confirm the amperage of the power supply just to prove this path is incorrect.


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone got any ideas as to what this is?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:22 pm 
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I dont want to get involved in this arguement (discussion) except to say one thing. Tom is correct in saying when running video over a UTP cable via baluns you should only use ONE pair. CMR characteristics are destroyed if you use more than one pair and I would be surprised if you got any picture at all

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 Post subject: Re: Anyone got any ideas as to what this is?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:00 pm 
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spec sheet confirmed balun uses 1 pair for video, 2 for power, and 1 for data..... ( I'm thinking thats serial for menu control since it works)


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone got any ideas as to what this is?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:13 am 
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libram wrote:
spec sheet confirmed balun uses 1 pair for video, 2 for power, and 1 for data..... ( I'm thinking thats serial for menu control since it works)


Can I ask what you have the data connected too if it’s using menu


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone got any ideas as to what this is?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:40 pm 
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data pairs aren't directly connected to anything that I am aware of (except each end of the balun) the menu does work however.
Power supply confirmed as 25 amp and all cable is 24 awg none longer than 100 meters.
dvr ->balun>cable-> balun -> cam but the menu works.. the setting in the dvr for ptz control is 9600 8-n-1 using HDCVI protocol.


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