C.O.P.

Ok, I have another question about low-light cameras. My search for a decent (less than $750) low-light license plate camera continues! I have been reading a bit about Exview CCD and Super HAD CCD. So far I get the idea they are supposed to both help gather light. The thing I am curious about is do they replace, augment, or have nothing to do with WDR? I ask because I have looked at a camera with "verticle double density interline CCD" that has WDR and a few with Exview and Super HAD that do not have WDR. At the moment, I assume the WDR is more important for handling the contrasts than the Exview or Super HAD and therefore the one with WDR would be better for my application. I haven't found one yet that has both WDR and Exview or WDR and Super HAD. I'm sure they must be out there. I'm a lookin'!

IPCAMERAMAN, Perhaps you send send me a PM with the link. I have to warn you though... I think I have settled on my camera so I will be very upset if your info forces me to go back and rethink it!

Hi Bike, See, no senior moment. Here's one of your responses. Thanks for the link. I took a look and all I have to say is OMG... I'm an accountant, not a darn rocket scientist! Seriously... I suspect something like that would be useful to get the best photos in a rare/unique photo opportunity but you guys don't actually calculate it for each project, do you? I was hoping to use the very scientific approach of "trial and error"! My mentality (which I suspect is the same for many amatures) is big distance = big lens. A 5-50mm lens can be adjusted to equal anything from a 5mm lens to a 50mm lens, right? My exposure to this forum has forced me to realize many of my assumptions (about cameras and photography... I still think women are aliens!) are not true! Grr... now I have to look up those formulas to see what each variable means or I'll lose sleep!

Bike, I think I remember you posting comments. Assuming I am not having a "senior moment", they wre probably in a different thread. I was trying to contain my questions (thus the answers) to one thread for a while but switched. The idea of one thread was to minimize the need to describe and explain the conditions and purpose of the project I am planning to do. Often, when someone asks a general question such as, "what is the best _______", they get responses asking for more information and/or a military grade product costing thousdands of $$ . I figure I have been a big enough pain by now that the "major responders" have a clue what I am trying to do. Maybe I should put the link to my general thread in my signature... hmmm... BRILLIANT! Brilliant enough for a shutter speed of 1/120,000!!! (reference to get back on topic) I here by lay claim to the term "120,000 idea/moment"! The smaller, more specialized threads seem to generate more response. Because of the "view your posts" feature, I can put the information together pretty easily. EDIT: Now that I think about it Rory, maybe you could do a sticky called "Before you ask for the best!" that gives us "noobs" an idea of what information (conditions, purpose, etc) is required for an expert to give you a decent response. Maybe you already have one but I never bothered to read it... after all who really bothers to read forums rules and stickies! (yes, that was supposed to be funny)

Good sales pitch. Did he also explain how shutter speed affects exposure? You'd need a ridiculously bright light on an object to obtain a usable exposure at that speed. What would be a reasonable shutter speed to expect (use) at about 50 feet with say a seperate 150ft IR source (playing with angles to avoid reflection after the fact)? The Panasonics that you guys like so much (484 and 504) top out at 1/10,000. Barring exceptional conditions, will I even come close to using that at night? This is also my first attempt at quoting.

K, I got it now. My assumption was the shutter kept going independant of what the camera was sending. That's why I couldn't understand how the camera "selected" what images were used to fill those 30 frames. I now see the reverse is true... the shutter is actuating/activating up to 30 times in 1 second with an exposure between 100,000 and 30. Now we sort of get back to my original question... effective frame rates can be limited by shutter speed but NOT vice versa. If your frame rate is 30 but you shutter speed is less than 30, your effective frame rate will = your shutter speed?????? Soundy, You should know by now I know next to nothing about photography, cameras and CCTV security except what I have learned from here. PS. you seem a little short today. Bad day? or U shld no I no <0 pics cams CCTV sept wut I lrnd here.

I checked that thread (others will follow). Has the technology changed much? That particular thread is almost 2 years old. I'd hope you guys have seen some good leaps in tech since then. I'm tired. I didn't even understand what you meant by "LPR" until I hit the thread so I'm fried. That said, I shall retire with images of me in a mustang SVT chase car keeping the camera within 10 feet of the perps plate!

Cameras... the search continues. I am now looking at the Samsung SHC 735 because it has WDR, BLC and HLC. I have no idea if one excludes the other or if all 3 work simultaneously to prove good low light pictures but the alphabet soup looks good! Here's the rub. I have seen the camera price between $350 and $450. Some sites specifically say "lens not included" but others do not... they show the camera pictured with a lens. In addition to the $400 for the camera, I am guessing I'll have to buy a lens ($100ish???). I am also guessing I'll have to buy some sort of enclosure (no idea on the $$$). I am guestimating I will be looking at $750ish per camera. I hate to spend that much per camera (I plan to use 2 to cover the road as I said above) but I want to do it right... without spending thousands on traffic cameras. Since I have inched myself up into the $750 range for cameras, do you guys have any suggestions? Should I be looking at IP cams now? Again, I plan to add more cameras as I can afford them. I just want to get the road and front of my driveway covered first and the best I can. EDIT: Oh and let's not forget about the IR lights. I'll have to do stand alone.

I watched the vids. They were pretty interesting. I'd say they covered enough to generate more questions but not enough to select "your own CCT system". I'm still hazy about the shutter speed and frame rate. If 1 shutter cycle produces 1 image = 1 frame and you have the shutter speed cranked to 100,000 (100,000 frames per second) but the camera only sends 30 fps... how does the camera know which 30 of the 100,000 to send? I just haven't seen anything that explains it. Granted, at my level and application, it's not really important. I am just curious. I guess another google is in order!

My brain hurts.

I'll explain further... I DID do a google search for the definitions of each. I did do a search of the CCTV forums. It seems I was unable to understand how or if one limits the other. If the shutter is open for exposure 1/100,000 of a second, what happens to the 99,999/100,000ths of that second? Obviously the shutter is not closed the rest of the time. As an object is passing by the camera, the shutter repeatedly opens for exposure... probably not 100,000 in a second but more than 30 I suspect. So if the shutter opens... say 100 times per second (whatever that shutter speed is... 100??) for an exposure (image???) but the DVR only takes 30 images (frames???) per second, what happens to the rest of the exposures (images???)? Does that better explain what I am asking? I took a quick look at the links you posted... Again, I am dense and/or lacking the vocabulary so I didn't see an answer (that I could understand anyway).

The problem with video and picture samples is you (as a buyer) never really know what the source was. I have a site in mind right now that I loved at first because they posted samples from the various cameras but, the quality seems to look the same to me (maybe my untrained eye). It got me to thinking perhaps they weren't being 100% honest. Well that and the fact that camera headline didn't always match the detail (typos or bait and switch?). I'm probably reading too much into the above case but you never really know what will turn a buyer away.

Lol Soundy, I hear you and suspected as much. I guess the thing that confuzzles me are the video samples I have seen that were taken by cameras that seemed less capable than the ones I am looking at. I'm not sure if I am allowed to post the link. The camera picks up the plates pretty nicely... granted at much slower speeds but also for much less time than my application would have. Sounds like I'll either have to stay mid ranged and cross my fingers or take out a 2nd mortgage! On another note, I got a call from Samsung Technical today (a few minutes ago). He said there is no issue with the wide angle IR on the 4160 and 4260. He said the "issue" I asked about (the bright center and dark outer edge) is common to all IR cameras. Doesn't sound right to me but I do have very limited experience. He did say their 425 or 737 with HLC would probably do better than the 4160 for capturing license plates because they have adjustable shutter speeds. I inquired about an evaluation sample (of the 4160 or 4260) to try out. He refered me to their local marketing company. If anyone is interested in more detail, just PM me or let me know if I can post the links. Seems like it's time for me to just try SOMETHING and see how it goes.

Hello JDB, Did you try the "Run as Administrator" option? If not, be sure you run the setup/install as administrator also. Maybe try a drive update or rollback. Whenever something runs on one of my XP machines but gives me a hard time on my Vista machines, it's usually one or both of the problems above. I hear the 64 bit versions (you didn't specify 32 or 64) are totally different animals but may still be worth trying the above.

Thanks for the input again Soundy. I'll clarify for you. The reason for trying to get plates is because most of the damage done to my property comes from items people throw from moving cars. Over the last 6 years, I have had to replace 3 vehicle windows, a mailbox, got many dents in my vehicles, and even had to bring my dog to the vet once because someone hit him with a rock (he's 180lbs bull mastiff so it just bruised him). I also get a lot of litter on my property. If, in reviewing the videos, I see one or more people are consistently using my property as their personal dump, I can do something. My son and I almost got run down by a speeder one day when I was getting him off the bus. Neither myself nor the bus driver could get the plate. He had no plate on the front and we were too busy counting fingers and toes after he went by to try to get the rear view. Lastly, just to see anyone who may be taking an unusual interest in my kids (while outside) or property. I suspect the fence has helped by making it so east bound drivers can't see who or what is in my driveway until they are on top of it. The incident with the mirrors was the first time (that I know of) people came on to my property to do the damage. I plan to put more cameras in eventually (one on each side and the rear) but because of my lack of funds I suspect I would be better off with a few mid range cameras right now to cover the high threat area than a bunch of low grade camers. That said, if you guys told me I'd need 2 $600 cameras to cover the road, I'd scrap the other 2 cameras in front for now and just make due with the 2 covering the road (I think I could angle then to get a decent shot of cars and faces.). Because the majority of the damage comes from moving vehicles, I look at the road in front of my house as the "choke point". There are no sidewalks. Besides the unoccupied house across the street, the next closest house is over 200 feet away. There are no stores or other points of interest. Unless someone is actively trying to defeat the cameras, they will most likely drive past my house. If the people plan to get out of their vehicle, they will most likely do it close to my driveway (to be lazy and make get away easier). If they try to park far away they take a risk of looking suspicious walking along a high speed dangerous road at night and they increase the chance they can get caught if discovered. Because there is no sidewalk or point of interest, even people on bikes or on foot will have to use the road. So that is my thinking in not so much of a nut shell.

I am trying to keep most of my stuff confined to one thread so I don't clutter the forum so please forgive me for responding to my own thread so much. Regarding the cameras: I am still leaning toward using a couple Samsung SIR 4160/4260 cameras. Besides the wide angle IR issue mentioned elsewhere (I have an email in to Samsung tech support. I'll let you know how that goes.), it seems as though they have many of the qualities you guys like about the Pan 484's but at about half the price (to me). Besides what we have seen so far, has anyone heard any more feedback for better or worse? Even if they are not all they are cracked up to be, they should still be more than adequate for my needs, right?

Not to sound cheap, but in a skeptical market, a product/supplier who claims to "blow the competition away" needs to provide free or low cost samples to respected members of the industry. A prime example of this is the hand tool and power tool industry. They send out samples to be used by professionals so they can get feedback and support. Of course this can be very costly but, if the product really is zounds above its competition, your return will come by word of mouth and references. I am not an installer but, I am here to listen and learn from these guys. If they say it's good, I'll most likely believe them. EDIT: I couldn't think of how to say it last night but here it is. You need to eliminate the risk of trying something new and/or add an incentive to try something new. (That's why phone companies usually offer to pay to switch you both ways... so you have nothing to lose by trying.) If you have a product you're happy with, what to expect fron it, and how to work with it, you'd need an incentive to change to/try another product. "Can't you see how much better my product is?!?!", doesn't usually cut it.

Today was a nice day so I got out side to take some pictures. I took them in 640/480 to try to simulate a security camera. The front picture has some possible locations marked. They are not the only locations, just the ones that seemed to make sense to me. The blue circle on the right just indicates the garden storage container I was thinking about using to hide the camera at location C. A (the peak) is a thought I had for a general view (possibly to replace B and D). I would probably give the best tamper resistant location. This is the view from E (facing East I believe). The camera would probably be in a wooden box about 4 feet high attached to the fence post. I am not sure what kind of camera would be good to conceal in this fashion. The idea would be to get the front of oncoming cars and the rear of cars heading away. I suspect if I angle it more to the left, I can catch faces of anyone who comes into the driveway and sideshots of the cars. The view from C (facing West I believe) is approximately what I would get if I put a camera over by the mailbox you can see in view E. It would be from a lower angle because my plan is to instal it inside the garden storage unit and cut a hole for it to see through (protected by plexiglass I think). Again, I am not sure if a bullet IR camera would work well looking through a hole. Views D and B would be from under the eves of the roof in front. They could each be angled out into the driveway, down the road, or inbetween. Well D would get clipped by the fence at E. The location usually has no light. The cars tend to average 50mph+. I'm not looking for Fort Knox stuff but I would like to have a good chance of catching the average vandal who is not actively trying to defeat the cameras. Ok guys, hit me with some ideas (number of cameras, types, locations, etc.) and/or corrections please. I am sure I am making some bad assumptions somewhere.

Ok I do have a question on this topic. Is it the playback/viewing that uses most of the PC's resources (memory, processor, graphic card), the recording, or both?

I think it's been decided already (get a new one) but... I suspect the case would not be worth keeping either. When I upgraded mine, the power supply connectors did not match either. (making an attempt to contribute)

I agree. The only problem is, with the several comments I made about how little the police care and/or want to avoid paperwork for minor stuff, it will be just my luck they stop me for not having the mirrors (I believe driver's side is a must). I can't do the cameras (the way I want to) until I get my tax return. I suppose I can put the mirrors on and put a "free" sign on them. We all know noone takes anything marked "for free"!

Yay, the replacement mirrors for my jeep came in yesterday. Now I just need to decide if I put them on now, before I install the cameras, or wait until after.

Last night, an older ex-P.I. friend of mine told me spraying hairspray on a license plate will help prevent cameras from getting a good read on them. Anyone know if there is any truth to this?

We're supposed to have front and rear plates also but unless you do something to draw attention to yourself the police will generally leave you alone. The older police don't care and the younger ones don't want to waste valuable "super hero out on the street" time doing paperwork when they could be stopping major crimes like... people talking on their cell phones while driving! One of the funny things in Connecticut is we are now supposed to display our registration sticker on the lower left corner of the windshield. You can tell politicians came up with that one. Gee guys, people keep stealing the reg stickers off the plates so lets make people put them somewhere the police can't see them!

Design a surface to surface missle that can be fired from a car and will seek out and destroy speed cameras! Around here, you can just drive around with NO license plate on the back! I know people who have driven like that for MONTHS! Last I knew, the fine for not having a plate on the care was much less than a speeding ticket. Plus, unless the cop is a jerk, he'd probably let you go with a warning if it's your first time. Finally, get a small aircaft license and just fly over the cameras!