Bird cage camera system

[GT500Shlby 0]

I know it sounds weird, but I have two parrots, both extremely expensive. I purchased an 80" w x 40" d x 74" h double cage (each side is 40" x 40"). I need a day/night camera system for the cage that can be put into an acrylic dome to protect them from the destructive beaks of the parrots. I wanted a PTZ, but looking at prices they are too expensive. I set up a Lorex system for a friend (he bought it and stuck me with it to make work), but its garbage and I don't want to spend $700.00 if at all possible. I do have a spare Axis 2100 network camera, but I'm missing the power supply and it won't fit in a dome.

 

Basic Requirements

- day/night functionality

- able to focus inside a 40" x 40" cage

- able to be mounted in an acrylic dome inside the cage (I can make the dome).

- 4 cameras total, 2 for each side

- PCI-slot less. I am 99.999% mac based with mostly all laptops and mac minis but I do have a Zotac ZBox Atom PC with Windows 7 Ultimate on it so USB or Ethernet would work

- Cheap. Like $400 - $500 for the entire system

- Decent enough resolution to be able to see if the bird is sleeping on one foot in the middle of the night

 

Lighting

This is the kicker. Over the cage, the birds need a special light which is actually two lights in one. During the day I currently have a 5500K full spectrum daylight with 5% UVA and .4% UVB. During the night, a soft blue "moonlight" stays on. However, I am replacing that with a custom designed LED system that can do even higher UV levels but the same 5500K white light. Apparently it reeked havoc with the Lorex cameras (garbage cameras, I know) because they stayed in night mode. Obviously, I need a camera that can operate in those conditions.

 

Environmental

I keep the entire bird's room at 85F with 55% relative humidity 24/7/365. But it is indoors, so no rain, sleet, snow, hail, etc...

 

Resolution

At least 640x480. At a distance of 15-20" I need to be able to make out black feet on white bodies at night with only a very dim blue night light (0.6w 3-LED diffused). Sounds weird, but with the Lorex system I was testing at my place before I set it up at my friends, I couldn't tell from a distance of 3' (outside the cage) if the bird was sleeping on one foot or not. Yeah, a WorstBuy special is going to be the worst of the worst. Because that's what they sell, overpriced garbage. But, I am darn sure NOT going to put a $1,200 Axis camera inside a birdcage.

 

I don't need wireless 18,000 function fullHD 3D super framerate camera. I need a barebones $50 dome style camera and a $200 usb or ethernet encoder or whatever I can do to connect it to a mini computer or laptop.

 

Sound isn't required, but would be a nice value add that I would spend $75 total extra for the entire package, so a total firm maximum of $575.00. But the cheaper, the better.

 

Please Advise.

 

Thanks,

GT

[Soundy 1]

There some reason this really needs to go INSIDE the cage? You'd need something super-wide-angle to see the whole interior, and you'll have a hard time getting that without fisheye distortion, unless you're willing to spend a few hundred JUST for the lens.

 

Why not just a camera to watch the cage from the outside? Your Axis should work fine... I can't find any specs on it offhand, but I'm guessing it should work with any common 12VDC power supply... if not, it does support PoE, so you could either add a PoE switch to your network, or pick up a simple PoE injector.

[GT500Shlby 0]

Well, number one reason to have it in the cage is to see both sides. The cage goes up against a wall, and it has to because it provides a feeling of security to the birds. If the bird is facing the wall, I won't be able to see the front of the bird.

 

Number two would be that I have two birds. I don't need to see every single solitary inch of the cage, but have enough views to get a majority view.

 

Three, would be clarity. From a few feet, it's hard to see little details like if their eyes are open or shut or see if their foot is raised. I know it sounds crazy, but the way a bird sleeps provides a significant amount of data to determine their health and well being. These are very rare birds and in the wild they are extremely endangered. They are also masters at hiding illness and stress until its too late and they are feet up at the bottom of the cage, apneic. Then there is a $6,000 bird down the drain and it would probably take significant expense and time to find another one.

 

My thinking is having one camera in each top front-left corner and one camera in each top rear-right corner at a slight downward angle should provide the best views. I can always use the current axis as a "big picture" view outside the front of the cage.

 

As far as a power supply, I can order one online cheap. However, I don't think this one is PoE, it may be too old. I used to use it to look at robotic drug discovery platforms to make sure they were operating to spec but that was years ago (2005-ish). I can probably design a cmos sensor on a chip with a fish eye lense that runs on PoE, but it takes months for my design to make it to a physical prototype and then to a production ready unit. I'm looking more for a current off the shelf solution.

 

In the cage or out of the cage isn't the main issue. It's more of finding the best bang for the buck camera because I have very limited experience with these systems. When I worked at big pharma, I just bought the most expensive camera on the market and paid the manufacturer a small fortune to install, configure and support them. Now, unfortunately, I don't have a $20MM yearly budget to blow. I'm looking at some geeks website that has camera systems and cameras for $20 - $60 each with an IP video server for $90. Yet, I have no clue or assurance that these products will even work with each other or if they will even work they way I want them to.

 

I'm out of my element with this. However, I do appreciate the questioning of my requirements, it provides a "Devil's Advocate" point of view which is helpful. Maybe I don't need it in the cage. I don't want to stay with tunnel vision - I'm open to all ideas.

 

Thanks,

GT

[tomcctv 187]

axis do a good little camera. two of these will do the job.

For video security situations requiring the most discreet surveillance solution, consider the Axis M7001 Covert Surveillance Kit. This remarkable kit includes the compact Axis M7001 single-channel video encoder with an extremely small covert camera. Both the camera and the encoder operate using Power over Ethernet, which makes it easy to install this all-in-one system anywhere along your existing network. A standard Ethernet cable is all that's required to power both the camera and the encoder. The covert camera is IP66-rated so it can stand up to dust, moisture, and other troublesome weather conditions. The Axis M7001 video encoder enables the camera to stream high-quality video over your network for remote viewing and recording. With support for H.264 video compression, the encoder significantly reduces network bandwidth and storage requirements without compromising image quality. For added flexibility, the Axis M7001 offers simultaneous H.264 and Motion JPEG, PTZ support, and can deliver two simultaneous video streams at full frame rate up to D1 resolution.

 

 

 

[GT500Shlby 0]

Nice camera, but way too expensive.

 

I'm looking at: This camera(geeks.com) and This video server(geeks.com).

 

With 4 cameras and the server it comes in at less than half that that one axis camera costs. Yeah, Axis is the best, but too darn expensive.

[tomcctv 187]

Nice camera, but way too expensive.

 

I'm looking at: This camera(geeks.com) and This video server(geeks.com).

 

With 4 cameras and the server it comes in at less than half that that one axis camera costs. Yeah, Axis is the best, but too darn expensive.

 

 

you want quality ........... and the price is not far of the gear you have listed ..........you only need two of the axis cameras. ...... if you spend that type of money on the geek stuff you will wish you paid for the axis.

 

 

you also say you need to fit the camera into a dome...... the camera you have listed will be a bad idea (it has ir) and also having 4 ir cameras around your cage will also give you problems (you only need 1 ir in that space)

[D.V.S. 0]

Nice camera, but way too expensive.

 

I'm looking at: This camera(geeks.com) and This video server(geeks.com).

 

With 4 cameras and the server it comes in at less than half that that one axis camera costs. Yeah, Axis is the best, but too darn expensive.

 

That camera at geeks will not work. First, if you use that camera with infrared lighting, you are going to see only a bright white ghost (no detail) because of the infrareds being very close to the subject viewed. And the visual angle is too small. You would need the largest viewing angle, being that your view is so close.

 

For that server, take your chances. Who knows.

 

Edit: If you are really set on getting those cameras you could probably disable or diffuse them to lessen the over saturation of the infrared's. Only by trial and error though.

[GT500Shlby 0]

That camera at geeks will not work. First, if you use that camera with infrared lighting, you are going to see only a bright white ghost (no detail) because of the infrareds being very close to the subject viewed. And the visual angle is too small. You would need the largest viewing angle, being that your view is so close.

 

For that server, take your chances. Who knows. .

 

I didn't buy those cameras yet. I need something cheap that has a night mode. I can't spend more than $500.00 on this.

[crosseyed66 0]

That is an interesting delimina, The problem you have is that with your budget you are just not going to be able to do what you need. I would look at spending a little more money and getting some equipment that will actually do the job. I just put up a Mobotix Megapixel camera that has a 180 degree view with a resolution 2048 x 1536 that will let you map the pimples on a teenager at 20 ft. http://www.mobotix.com/ Granted that this is overkill, but If you are worried about protecting a 8,000 bird, why not invest a few extra bucks and get the equipment that will do the job properly the first time around and maybe you will still have your birds 10 years from now instead of having them ending "feet up" because you tried to cheap out on the equipment to protect them.

I have learned that you get what you pay for, and when you try to do it on the cheap you usually end up redoing it with the right equipment anyway (usually after you experience another loss).

[GT500Shlby 0]

There is getting what you paid for and over-paying for overkill. Take for example home theater: I have a 92" 1080p TV that can do 24fps 3:3 and 7.1 TrueHD audio, all the components hidden in a closet with a concealed IR extender and universal remote that supports macros and actions. Including Blu-Ray & an HD DVR - all the fixings. Now you can spend hundreds of thousands on McIntosh, Bang & Olufsen, Paradigm, BG, etc... Why? The kings of all HDTV's were the Pioneer Elite PDP-150FD & PDP-151FD and ranged in price from $3,400 to $7,500. Guess what? Not even made anymore and there really hasn't been anything to come along to beat it. Maybe that 65" RPTV from Mitsubishi, but that isn't practical. Most TV manufacturers just add useless crap like 3D to their TV's (which isn't really adding anything, because I can do 3D on my projector and its 3 years old) to cover up their incompetence.

 

Here is the thing, in your eyes - you are saying I should spend $6,000.00 on that TV setup (If that TV setup were the cameras). I spent $3,000. Smart shopping. Is a Denon 4308 garbage? NO. It's MADE by the same company as McIntosh. There are simple guidelines to getting great results. #1: Never buy anything Sony. #2 Never buy anything from Best Buy. #3: Never by anything that you don't need.

 

What I am getting at is, at the end of the day I'm looking at a freaking bird not protecting the crown jewels. I need to monitor their sleep habits and while away make sure they are not escaping. Spending $2,000 on cameras isn't going to make them live longer or not get in trouble, nor will spending $500 on cameras.

 

640x480 resolution @ 30 fps is more than enough resolution. Heck I can take 4 $17 Logitech webcams and hook it to an atom PC and see everything I need. I would however like something less MacGyvered. Are you telling me that there are no reliable and good quality cameras that just do the basics and aren't woefully overpriced? I find that very hard to believe.

 

I was born at night, but not last night.

[Soundy 1]

Alright, calm down now... Your TV analogy doesn't really play, because camera technology is really advancing in different ways than consumer TV tech.

 

The fact is, you've got some very particular needs that will not be addressed by CHEAP cameras. Simple as that.

 

One, you need good vision under very low artificial light. Your $17 USB webcams will not do that. Neither, as D.V.S. noted, will an IR camera (which in most cases, are cheap cameras with poor low-light performance, that make up for that by adding IR illumination). IR is handy in very-low and no-light situations, but most cameras have no way to control the output power, so you really have a "sweet spot" in distance where they work best... and your birds will fall well outside that sweet spot.

 

Two, you need a very wide field of view at a very close range. The $17 webcam won't do that either. In fact, for the angles you need, at the range you need, most lenses packed with cameras won't do either... or will just barely do.

 

You also need to be able to focus at very close range, and still have significant depth of field. The webcam will focus closely (by design), but probably not give you very great DOF... meaning if you focus it on the birds up close, they'll be out of focus at the other end of the cage.

 

The real problem arises from the fact that the cure for one problem will worsen another. You can improve depth-of-field by closing down the iris of the lens... unfortunately that also reduces the amount of light it passes, which won't do for night viewing.

 

One thing that MIGHT help you, is that most animals' eyes (and people's too) tend to really reflect back IR light, giving them that glowing-eyed zombie look (think of shining a flashlight in a cat's eyes at night). If this holds true of your birds, you could use a low-power IR illuminator or two, mounted at a distance (so the IR doesn't wash out the image), and that would help you determine whether the birds' eyes are open or closed (providing they don't bury their heads under a wing when they sleep, as some birds do).

 

To get around the short-focus problem, look at a couple of low-light, true-day/night type cameras placed outside the cage. If one side has to go against the wall, then line the cameras up looking into the two sides that are perpendicular to the wall. That should give you almost a full view of the cage, with two different angles to look for glowing eyes and peg-legs.

 

This method can also take advantage of another trick of optics, in that the further you put the cameras from the cage, the less the cage bars/wires themselves will be a factor. As you put the cameras further back, you also reduce the short-focus problem.

 

Beyond that, if you're still having trouble with angles, you could add another camera looking in through the other side parallel to the wall.

 

None of this requires overly expensive cameras... true-day/night type (with removable IR cut filters) will give the best low-light response, even under just the birds' own night light, and work even better if you go with the IR illuminators.

[rory 0]

CNB VCM-24VF Vandal dome and call it a day - 2.8mm wide angle FOV. Or look at the KT&C Mini Cube BW Cameras and throw on a 1.8mm fish eye lens. Get a 4 channel DVR with LAN if you want to record and view it over the network. If its too dark at night, get a separate IR source or add more light.

Its just a bird

[Birdman Adam 0]

One that costs more than $6000!

[GT500Shlby 0]

A Major Mitchell ****atoo and a Goffin ****atoo, both female. The Goffin is 18 months old. the Major Mitchell is about 4 months old.

 

When the Major Mitchell's is weened I will be putting both in the cage separated by Plexiglas. In the Goffin's old cage, I'm putting a lesser sulfur crested or citron, but the Micthell needs to get weened first before I get another bird.

[rory 0]

I have a couple wild parrots flying around my yard

[GT500Shlby 0]

Hahaha yeah, but you aren't allowed to bring those back to the US. And for good reason, they carry some wicked diseases and parasites that could wipe out half the birds on the East Coast. I actually keep a 1989 43' Post Sportfish in the Abacos, Bahamas a couple months out of the year at the Boat Harbour marina. It's a hopping place when all the fishing boats are in, but it dies very quickly when they leave. But, it beats being in Philadelphia, PA in the middle of December to the end of March. That and my boat is registered in the Marshall Islands, so I can only keep it docked in the US like 9 or 10 months out of the year.

[rory 0]

Now you got me worried, so I should run indoors when i see them or they might give me the ebola virus or something?

 

Im on the main island, New Providence .. its an over crowded island.

Went to Marsh Harbour a couple months ago for the first time and it was nice, a bit slow though.

My family is actually from the south, Long Island, and my moms side is from Scotland.

Spent a couple years in NY and went upstate in the Winter .. so yeah I know the cold .. but after the past couple months of non stop intense sun and heat ... especially trying to install cameras outside in it ... i dream about the cold now

[Soundy 1]

i dream about the cold now

Well then, this should cheer you up! This is where I grew up

[GT500Shlby 0]

I got an email back from Axis, the cheapest camera they have is $179.00 and it's not day/night - but the minimum software license for 4 cameras is $649.00

[Birdman Adam 0]

Rory the parrots diseases' only infect other birds. Can't be passed to a human (not yet at least).

 

I'm a small breeder that raises ****atiels and quaker parrots, so I know where your coming from with needing to know how they sleep! Although my birds are in the <$300 range!

 

I'll usually set up a cam on the babies, make sure they aren't picking on each other while i'm not there. (The quakers have a big personality, and are also escape artists!!!)

[rory 0]

Phew thats good to know. With everything else out there to worry about didnt need anything else

[DVR MAN 0]

I/R inside the cage will harm the parrots eyes. It may even cause blindness. I/R causes cataracts in humans also. Please mount the cameras outside the cage at a safe distance. That will provide a better area of coverage and allow you to observe what takes place around the cage.

DVR MAN