Need's some advice! Desperately!

[vbman213 0]

Greetings!

 

I have a CCTV project that I am working on and I could really use some advice! I am the CTO for a medium-sized, family owned and operated business and I have been placed with the responsibility of designing and implementing a new CCTV system (to upgrade our current system).

 

We currently have 4, General Electric Interlogix cameras (with 8 output 24VAC power supply and 4channel GE TVR DVR). We already have coaxial/siamese cable running to the 4 current cameras and we plan on running more cables to feed the new cameras. I just want to make sure that everything that I order is good quality and will serve us well for many years to come! I have been checking out some of the links (Apex CCTV, DWG, etc.) trying to find a good supplier with a good track record with customers.

 

First off, we need about 750 feet of cable. What kind of ratings should I be looking for that would be sufficient for running through walls, through conduit, etc. Second, we are actually thinking about replacing all the cameras with 8 brand new cameras. What would be a good all around, high quality, camera that would work in just about any application/angle/shot/etc. I've read that 24VAC is the preferred power source for longer cable lengths but most cameras that I've seen on the above links use 12VDC. I can easily purchase a 12VDC power supply to support all 8 cameras (especially if I am going to end up replacing all of them).

 

Second, we need a good DVR. I was looking at the Dahua line and they look very decent. Lots of storage, disk burners, etc.)

 

Basically, my budget is $3k. I was thinking about $200 per camera (1600 in cameras) + $800 for DVR + $200 cables + $400 for extra installation supplies (power supply, conduit, water proofing, etc.)

[camera-newbie 0]

Just a stupid question if you don't mind.. Since you're apparently talking about replacing analog cameras with more analog cameras, why bother if the old ones are doing their job OK? Now mind you, if you were moving from analog to IP cameras then that's a different story and camera replacement would be obvious.. However, if the old cameras are working fine then new cameras are not going to be a huge improvement (or possibly even a small improvement over the old equipment???) so it would seem to me to not be $$ well spent. I'm sure someone else will chime in on the wire types and whatnot.. If I were running new cable, you might also consider running CAT5 & Baluns which would somewhat future proof your new camera runs in the off chance you want to move to IP cameras. Anyway, just a few things to ponder..

[Numb-nuts 1]

Why was this bod given the task. He doesn't know anything about CCTV.

[groovyman 0]

Why was this bod given the task. He doesn't know anything about CCTV.

And neither did you, me or anyone else until it was learned

[Soundy 1]

Why was this bod given the task. He doesn't know anything about CCTV.

And neither did you, me or anyone else until it was learned

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First off, we need about 750 feet of cable. What kind of ratings should I be looking for that would be sufficient for running through walls, through conduit, etc

The main rating that might be of any concern is the "fire time" or FT rating. FT-4, aka "riser" type, is the most common and least expensive, but local building/electrical/fire codes may require FT-6, aka "plenum" cable, if your runs are in a plenum airspace for any significant distance. This is something you'll have to check for with local laws, though. Some areas may also have different requirements for new vs. retrofit as well.

 

Second, we are actually thinking about replacing all the cameras with 8 brand new cameras. What would be a good all around, high quality, camera that would work in just about any application/angle/shot/etc.

 

One of the most common recomendations you'll see around here is the CNB VCM-24VF. It's an IP65-rated vandal-resistant dome, true-day/night, excellent low-light image (no IR needed in most cases), has a versatile 2.8-10.5mm lens, can be surface- or flush-mounted, and supports dual power (12VDC or 24VAC, or anything in between).

 

Second, we need a good DVR. I was looking at the Dahua line and they look very decent. Lots of storage, disk burners, etc.)

Excellent choice. I have the four-channel FULLD1 model at home - I'm a dyed-in-the-wool advocate of PC-based DVRs, but this little unit has really impressed me.

 

Now, as others have noted, you might want to consider using Cat5e and baluns for any new cameras: this is a very good idea, as not only is Cat5e cheaper and easier to work with than coax/power Siamese, but it's also more versatile all-around, and it makes for easy upgrades to IP cameras later. In fact, if you're going to replace all the cameras anyway, might as well look into how easy it is to replace the existing wire as well.

 

SHOULD you decide to go this way, I'd highly recommend looking into some of these:

 

This combines power supply and passive baluns all into one rack-mountable unit; you just terminate your camera runs with RJ45 jacks or plugs, or into a patchbay, and plug your cameras in.

 

At the camera end, one of these again makes for an easy plug-in connection.

 

With this setup, your runs are already terminated appropriately, so switching a camera out for an IP camera later is as easy as unplugging from both ends, plugging in the new camera, and plugging the other end into a PoE switch.

 

Also worth considering: if you think you may upgrade some or all cameras to IP in the near future, take a look at a hybrid DVR, which can record both analog and IP feeds. Costs a bit more, but saves a lot of hassle in the long run.

[vbman213 0]

Why was this bod given the task. He doesn't know anything about CCTV.

 

You're absolutely correct, that's why I'm doing my homework first. thanks lol

[IseeYou 0]

I too am following Soundy's advice and went with a VPS/balun solution. I made my first purchase (VPS, baluns and patch cables) and plan on ordering the cameras and DVR in about 2 weeks.

 

I plan to put some cams on a test bench so I can let you know how easy this setup will be when the time comes.

 

Soundy links to Eastern but you cannot purchase from them - PM and will let you know where I got mine from.

 

Cheers,

[Soundy 1]

Yeah, sorry about that - Eastern is a wholesaler, so they won't sell direct... being an integrator, we set up a business account with them, and I still link to them because I have all the links bookmarked

 

The devices appear to actually be made by Derytech, although THEIR website contains nothing even close to them - looks like they're resold under a number of different names through various online retailers.

[vbman213 0]

What we be the recommendations for good, general/all-around IP cameras and a good PoE switch (with at least 8 PoE ports)

[Razer_SE 0]

The switch I would recommend is the Cisco 300 series switch, the SF 302-08P. About $250 and a great switch for the price.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Cisco-SF-302-08P-SRW208P-K9-NA-Managed/dp/B004496TFS/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1340975907&sr=1-1&keywords=SF302-08P

 

Cameras, well there are a ton. Good lower cost brands that you may consider are Vivotek and ACTi. I use both brands a lot and have had good results. I use the bullet cameras mostly, but I also use domes from both and I'm using the ACTi 360 camera and 4mp outdoor box cameras with great results too. Domes could start around $230-$250 and up. Bullets are normally starting around $300 or so. The sky is the limit of course, and the exact camera will depend on your needs.

 

Others will chime in with some recommendations I'm sure. Personally, if you are replacing I would recommend going IP also. You will see an amazing improvement quality with the right cameras for sure, well worth it to my company anyway.

[vbman213 0]

Excellent! Thanks for the switch! I've been looking for a good one that had 8 PoE ports (8 cameras is exactly what I need). I have experience managing Cisco ASA's and Managed Switches before so I can easily just take advantage of those uplink ports (so it's really 10 ports) to connect to the recording computer (or nvr) and the rest of my network.

 

Any suggestions on software?

[nDAlk90 0]

You don't want a standalone NVR system?

You want a software based VMS solution?

Just to be clear on what your looking for.

 

Any suggestions on software?

[vbman213 0]

Did some more research and IP solutions and found that the cost is substantially higher than analog solutions. I think an analog system is going to be the be solution for my application. However, I am still debating on whether or not I should run Cat5 or Siamese. This system will be in production for many years to come and I can't (yet) see a time when we would have a need to upgrade to IP based cameras. I already have a 24VAC UL rated General Electric Interlogix power supply that could easily power 4 more cameras and purchase about 500 foot of RG59/u coax and call it done. This would be quick and easy and plug right in to our existing equipment. However, it seems that you pay about a $200 premium just for IP based solutions (talking per camera). We got a quote from ADT for an install of 4 more cameras but we really want to avoid using them so we can avoid the service contracts. I'm looking at their proposal and they were going to install 4 new rebranded Speco http://www.specotech.com/product/19/CVC5845DNV.html cameras. These cameras seem to be their standard for essentially any shot, angle, lighting conditions, etc.

[Rockvilleash1976 0]

The GE products have gone down hill over the past couple of years so I would not use new GE-Interlogic equipment.

 

Analog systems are much easier to install and tend to last much longer. i have some clients with Bosch systems that are 10-15 years old and are still working. I just upgraded a 64 camera install that was still using Bosch VCR's. I see a lot of what I call off brands on this site. If you want a good system that will last for many years go Bosch.

 

I know some people like PC based system but i have been in this industry for 12 years and i replace PC based systems that are less than 2 years old every month. An NVR with video grade hard drives is a different stroy but then you are talking IP.

 

Take a look at the link below use the tools on the website and and use RG59/18-2 wire and keep your 24 volt system. i replace 12v cameras almost as often as i replace PC based systems.

 

You do need to know if your ceilings are plenum. The quick way to figure it out is look at your A/C vents and returns. If there is duct work in the ceiling then you dont need plenum if your ceiling serves as the duct work then you need plenum. The differance is regular wire gives off toxic fumes if it burns. if you have a plenum celing and the wire burns you will have toxic fumes coming out of your vents.

 

http://www2.boschsecurity.us/advantage/support.html

[Soundy 1]

Analog systems are much easier to install and tend to last much longer.

I've never understood this statement. There's no logical basis for it.

 

Your typical digital-recorder system consists of three basic systems: one to electronically capture an image; one to convert that to a digital file format; and one to store it, usually with some sort of indexing/search function.

 

A analog DVR setup puts the latter two systems in one box (the DVR); an IP system puts the first two systems in one box (the camera). There is ZERO technical reason that either should be more "reliable" than the other. Both generally record to the same magnetic storage media (hard drive); both generally use copper cable for interconnect; neither has any other substantial point of failure over the other.

 

i have some clients with Bosch systems that are 10-15 years old and are still working.

Irrelevant; you can't make a "longevity" comparison based on that since IP video hasn't been common on the commercial market for more than 5-6 years.

 

I know some people like PC based system but i have been in this industry for 12 years and i replace PC based systems that are less than 2 years old every month.

I've seen far more cheap standalone units that were dead or flaky out-of-the-box or failed within days of installation. Once again, an irrelevant comparison - the most common failure in either system is the hard drive, and both standalone and PC systems use (or CAN use) exactly the same drives.

[Rockvilleash1976 0]

Soundy

The great thing about our industry is that it changes all the time and there are always new methods and new equipment to try out. In my experience a PC with a video capture card is usually a lower end PC built with cheaper parts. I am not talking about an IP system that is a VMS running on a server. We just finished up a 64 camera install for a federal building that had a combination of analog cameras on encoders and IP cameras. The whole system is running on Dell servers with a full VMS recording solution. The servers and storage system was close to 100K by itself. This system will do its job.

When i go into a 16 camera system that is all analog cameras running back to a PC with a video capture card it is not the technology that has failed it is the fact that someone used a cheap PC. Same thing for a cheap stand alone DVR they are just made from crappy components.

An off the shelf PC is not built to run 24/7 and that is why i replace alot of self installed and amature installed systems like this.

The first thing I look for in a manufacture is how long they warranty their equipment. If it is not 3 years I do not use it. Arecount is a good example they make a great camera but due to quality control issues in their manufacturing process they have a very high failure rate. I talked to the rep for them two weeks ago. Arecount has made changes to their manufacturing so they will start offering a 3 year warranty in the next couple of months but only on new equipment.

A DVR built by a reputable manufacture that has been in CCTV for a long time connected to an analog camera and using RG59/18-2 and a 24 volt power supply does not require any real experience. If you can make BNC connectors you are good. Setting up the recorders settings and selecting the correct cameras is why people like you and me will always have a job because a properly installed system will always require a experienced person.

IP system do have a lot of issue that analog does not. If you build a closed network you cut down on the issues but IP system have a lot more parts thus a lot more room for error and failures. We install analog systems for most systems under 32 cameras once you get above 32 cameras IP really is the correct choice.

[Rockvilleash1976 0]

In theory these cameras work the same. They both have a lens, video card of some sort and send video out over copper. only one of them will be found on military ships.

 

http://stna.resource.bosch.com/documents/Data_sheet_enUS_18014400835923979.pdf

 

Not this.

 

http://www.cctvwholesalers.com/product_p/kg-ir40c.htm

[Soundy 1]

IP system do have a lot of issue that analog does not. If you build a closed network you cut down on the issues but IP system have a lot more parts thus a lot more room for error and failures.

Bull$#!t. This is one of the persistent myths in the industry. There are no more parts, there are no extra points of failure... just different parts, different potential points of failure, different possible consequences... neither is any more or less reliable than the other.

 

Don't talk to me about switches failing and taking out all the cameras in one shot (a common fear I see spread) - I've had more capture cards fail than I have switches, with exactly the same result. Downside is, a capture card is more difficult and expensive to source and more work to replace.

[Rockvilleash1976 0]

Soundy:

 

We should start another thred with Pros and Cons of Embeded DVR vs PC/Capture card and then one for IP vs Analog.

 

For this guy working on a budget keep your legacy wire, replace cameras as needed, use a DVR that offers a 3 year warranty and use IR mini domes for any new camera install. This will be a budget friendly system that will last. The cameras and DVR's i use for this type of system are the Bosch advantage line. The below tools will help. You will spend a little more upfront but you will 5 years from now you will be happy you used this stuff.

 

http://stna.resource.bosch.com/documents/Quick_Selection_Guide_enUS_4343403403.pdf

 

http://www2.boschsecurity.us/advantageline_tool/

[Soundy 1]

Soundy:

 

We should start another thred with Pros and Cons of Embeded DVR vs PC/Capture card and then one for IP vs Analog.

There are lots of those already. Most of them go the same way as this one. Fact is, most of the "cons" on both sides are either overblown, or non-existent, but people keep repeating them. I'm not here to argue that one is ALWAYS better than the other, but it really grates on my when the same ridiculous, nonsensical, illogical myths get trotted out.

 

For this guy working on a budget keep your legacy wire,

He wasn't asking about his legacy wire, he was asking about cameras he was planning to add and the wire to use for those. In that case, Cat5e is cheaper, easier to work with, and provides greater future flexibility.

 

replace cameras as needed, use a DVR that offers a 3 year warranty and use IR mini domes for any new camera install. This will be a budget friendly system that will last. The cameras and DVR's i use for this type of system are the Bosch advantage line. The below tools will help. You will spend a little more upfront but you will 5 years from now you will be happy you used this stuff.

Oh yeah, I have a couple dozen Bosch domes sitting on my "used stuff" shelf... replaced most of them with CNB VCM-24VFs because the customer was less than impressed with their performance. You want them? I don't think I'll ever find a use for them.

[Rockvilleash1976 0]

A couple of the new Bosch Advantage line cameras are OEMed by CNB And yes if you have Bosch cameras you dont want send them my way.