Indigo Vision

[normicgander 0]

Has anyone used Indigo Vision equipment?

 

They have a 10 channel MPEG4 encoder. It auto decimates the frame rate when there is no scene activity.

 

http://www.indigovision.com/products_transrec.htm

[rory 0]

No, but while doing research, it was on my list, but Acti had it beat on speed and bandwidth. They also require a training seminar to be able to sell the equipment (which is software really)

[juanggomez 0]

Of everything I tested IndigoVision is the best Video IP system in the industry up to now. No doubt.

 

And it's not a software, but an end to end solution.

[rory 0]

Of everything I tested IndigoVision is the best Video IP system in the industry up to now. No doubt.

 

And it's not a software, but an end to end solution.

 

Yes the software looks good, but they dont make the hardware, they OEM it ...

also their servers arent as fast as Acti ...

[juanggomez 0]

Rory, sorry but you are wrong this time.

 

I took Indigovision training in Edinburgh, UK some time ago and I have seen that they design everything, both hardware and software.

Even the compression chipset, an ASIC, is done by them, check http://mainstream.indigovision.com/ for more information. Everything is designed by them.

 

We installed some big projects with their products and everything was superb.

 

Their own ASIC chipset is the key to use much less bandwidth , much less storage space and much better quality than any than any current competitor in the industry.

 

I have also used Acti. Acti solution is far away from them, I see it as a low end solution, the Acti quality is lower, it drop frames, and uses much more bandwidth at similar video quality than Indigovision. And you can't compare the software. Also Acti solution is based on a chipset and solution provided by Micronas (www.micronas.com) so they really didn't do so much.

 

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[rory 0]

True, yeah took another look, seems they have improved the hardware specs since i checked last year .. they didnt do 30fps back then from what i remember ... and yeah the Acti software does needs some serious improvement .. Though acti does claim they do 1.5mbps for Real time video ... whats the specs on the Indigo Vision Bandwidth .. just curious ... ive not used either of them myself ..

[juanggomez 0]

Indigovision was known to have a full 30 fps 352x240 (CIF) solution for many years.

 

Now, IndigoVision 8000 transmitter encodes full 30 fps at 704x480 (4CIF) in NTSC (or 25fps 704x576 in PAL) in real DVD quality. Yes, you can compress a dvd movie in real time with excelent quality.

 

As for bandwidth, many video IP transmiters could be limited to 1.5 mbps, but you must always measure quality vs bandwidth for each transmiter using the same input signal (it's very motion dependent). For example you can limit indigovision to display 30 fps at 704x480 using 512 kbps. And the quality is good for many surveillance applications.

 

As per the test I made with the same camera as the source, at 1.5 mbps the video quality of the acti encoder is very low compared to Indigovision.

To get similar video quality you need at least 3 or more times the bandwidth usage with Acti than with Indigovision.

[rory 0]

Ok thanks .. some good info ..

[woodyads 0]

DVtel encoders do the same 30fps 704x480 (4CIF) in NTSC (or 25fps 704x576 in PAL) But they do not have the DVD encoder which would be sweet. They have 4 input filter settings. a scale of 1 - 10 for compression, Key frame from 1 to 25 seconds, 1 to 30 frames per second and bandwidth throttle of up to 4096KB/s.

 

Can't really give you a framerate to data throughput that would mean much as the cameras are looking at objects 2km away. So a bit of camera movement and the bandwidth goes up.

 

So here is the setup.

PAL 4Cif

no input filter

Best quality compression (low compression)

Key frame rate at 4 seconds

25 frames per second

1500Kb/s throttle

 

This ends up giving me about 5-7 frames per second with a bandwidth average of about 1000KB/s.

 

But as I said a bit of wind and the bandwith goes up and drops the frame rate to about 5 fps.

 

I know it perfoms much better with compression but my dispatches need to read the numbers on the sides of the equipment.

Edited September 23, 2006 by Guest

[rory 0]

Yeah i looked at DVTel briefly the other day when you mentioned their name .. would be interesting to put them and Indigo side by side and do a complete test .. ohh to have the $$ for that one day ..

[juanggomez 0]

DVtel uses Smartsight/Verint hardware and Genetec software.

 

As with Smartsight/Verint you get low quality video that filters numbers, faces and other details, it drop frames when there is high movements in the image, the video quality is affected when there is audio, alarms or PTZ movement. Bandwidth is high and storage space is huge because of the DSP implementation.

 

Compression must not mean bad video quality if done properly.

[woodyads 0]

DVtel uses Smartsight/Verint hardware and Genetec software.

 

As with Smartsight/Verint you get low quality video that filters numbers, faces and other details, it drop frames when there is high movements in the image, the video quality is affected when there is audio, alarms or PTZ movement. Bandwidth is high and storage space is huge because of the DSP implementation.

 

Compression must not mean bad video quality if done properly.

 

I replaced an analogue system with the DVTel encoders and Recording system. The cameras were the same. But I did upgrade the zoom lenses on them. We are using them to view trucks and shovels 2km away. So there are some major differences to using them in an indoor environment. Our main problem are light direction, dust on the housing, dust in the air, camera movement and distance. Hence the requirement for the highest quality picture in order to view numbers on the sides of trucks.

 

However

The change in quality was insignificant, barely noticeable. No the filters will not take out numbers. And the system does not drop frames with high image movement and PTZ movement even at highest frame rates, no throttle, highest resolution, no filtering and low compression. I did take the time to push the encoders to their extents so I could calculate the impact on the network.

 

You may be using different encoders, have network issues or have your setup wrong. One thing to watch for is alarms in environments with varying light sources. You can diagnose encoder / network issues by changing the key frame interval. An encoder will only drop a frame if it is on its key frame. Stretch this out to its maximum at 20 seconds and if you drop frames in the middle then your issue isn't an internal the encoder bandwidth issue. If it is an internal bandwidth issues then you will get a blocky picture.

[juanggomez 0]

I made a test comparing the video quality I got after the encoder compressed the signal vs the analog signal directly from the camera. I tested it using both the decoder and the software, and both outdoor and indoor. Just do it yourself and you will see how badly compression affects the video quality with DVTel encoders. For my applications it was completely unnacceptable. This is far away from analog quality.

 

 

Of course if you are using a powerful lens and the numbers are big enough you will be able to read anything anyway. But try to read a plate with as few pixels as possible and you will see what I mean about not reading numbers.

 

I tested the system at 4CIF and is very noticeable that it drop frames from time to time. But even DVtel will not guarantee the system to not drop frames if you ask them for. Just ask them.

[woodyads 0]

Some good information there. This why I joined this board in the first place, to learn off other peoples experience.

 

Couple of questions.

Which encoder did you use.

Did you find any other brand of encoder was better.

When you mention frame dropping, how many frames are you talking about? How long was it dropping for, how many cameras where you viewing. Does the frame freeze or go black?

Exactly what is you application. Tell us more about it and what are the constraints. Distances, Frames per second, recording etc.

 

Comments

I don't think any vendor will guarantee against frame dropping as it is dependent on the clients network. The majority of customers don't have their networks set up correctly.

 

I am a bit puzzled by the frame dropping. I can run my encoders flat out with no frame dropping. I can also run several flat out with no frame dropping. You should be able to diagnose if the dropping in in the encoder, network or computer.

 

I am interested in your application as I am about to put in a system that checks fragment size of rocks in a bucket and also checks the bucket for lost teeth. Looking at using Tropos Wireless LAN for these applications.

[GECAMGUY 0]

I would say that IndigoVision has hands down the best ASIC on the market, particularly from a latency standpoint. I've seen it demo'd several times at various shows (and one of our Product Managers works for Indigo now) and I can say definitively it's a sweet ASIC. In one demo, they have compressed video and live analog right next to each other. Not only is the quality equally crisp, but the latency is SOOOOO Low (like less than 50 mSec) that you really have to watch to see any latency at all.

 

Rory is correct about the ACTi CODEC, it's fantastic from a price/performance standpoint, and works perfectly with Genetec's and Milestone's software, which is why we chose ACTi's CODEC to pair with our new IP cameras (see my IP Rugged Dome beta test thread).

 

GECAMGUY

[dawnfire 0]

Does anyone know how many multicast video streams can the IndigoVIsion encoder provide? Also can the encoder do two multicasting video streams at 4-SIF 25 fps?

What is the maximum number of cameras that can be viewed at the Control Centre and at what resolution and fps?

 

Thank you

[woodyads 0]

If you are looking at the maximum number of cameras you will need to look at your entire network. If you are multicasting 2 streams per encoder at 4-sif 25pfs and say they each stream created a 2mb/s stream rated. Then you must look at the lowest speed device on your network. For instance if you have a printer with a 10mb/s jet direct box on it then you shouldn't go above an aggregate bandwidth of say 6mb/s or 1.5 cameras.

 

Better off using the one stream for viewing and recording this allows you to go from 1.5 cameras to 3 cameras. Better still get rid of all 10mb/s devices off you network.

 

I would also recommend designing your network around the cameras and filtering out back feed via port filtering on your switches. You should do this around all wireless gear anyway. Yes you will need to have all managed switches with Layer 3 control to do this.

 

Watch out for other low bandwidth devices. Old printers, old Jet direct ports, IP based card swipes, non closet hubs and switches used as workarounds, wireless devices.

 

As a rule don't purchase anything that has less than 100mb/s and make sure all switches and managed and have port filtering. Do not purchase any wireless devices that can't port filter on both the radio and ethernet side.

[CCTVguru1 0]

There is a faq site for IndigoVision here

http://forum.nortronics.com.au/

[Twilo123 0]

kind of taking it off topic but we are working with Acti now to integrate their cameras into our app and it has been a serious challenge of one thing after another. they lent us an ACM8511 which we are working with and have even put out a mjpg firmware for what we are doing but their api is a mess compared to what we have worked with on other manufacturers. very difficult to integrate them for jpg/mjpg streams + ptz controls.

 

on the + side they have a great support side. very responsive and helpful in trying to work with us. they were kind enough to lend us the cam to test and always respond fast to any emails we send them.

 

the api is just not very straight forward for what we are doing especially when comparing against other companies we have integrated. i have been able to integrate other cameras in 5 minutes and we are still working on it about a month later with them.

 

also i cannot get specific video parameters for a single remote stream session. i have to change the whole camera setup instead of calling variables on the fly. this is a big issue typically because we need 320x240 as best for our mobile phone apps whereas on a pc you will typically want much larger sizes. so if i change the size to 320x240 then the pc user will see that size also. on other cameras we have integrated you can call a resolution size just for the remote stream which doesn't change the overall camera setup. i have seen this issue on a couple of other cameras and i don't understand what the difference is on cameras that support this and ones that don't. i mean it's not that they are dual codec or anything. if anyone knows why this is i would love to learn about it.

[CCTVguru1 0]

I know this is an old thread but I recently started using IndigoVision and can highly recommend it.

Very low bandwidth for the image quality on the h.264 stuff

 

I also found this support forum that has some useful tips

http://forum.nortronics.com.au