Coaxial Cable & Control Cable for PTZ

[Obada Sinjab 0]

Dear All

 

Please help me with the below:

 

I need to know the maximum length for the varuios types of coaxial cable to give you a clear picture

for RG59

RJ11

RG6

 

and I need the control cable also what is the maximum length for it?

 

 

Thank you all

[the toss 0]

RG59 with 95% copper braided shielding & 0.9mm solid copper centre should be approx 300m

Rj11 is a 4 pin 4 position keystone jack as found on telephone handsets

RG6 with 95% copper braided shielding & 0.9mm solid copper centre sbould be approx 500m BUT RG6 is designed for HF RF (tv etc) NOT CCTV baseband and therefore it is succeptible to interference at frquencies under 50Mhz or so. Therefore it may or may not work for your application.

[Obada Sinjab 0]

Thank you for your replay

 

There is a coaxial cable called RJ11

RJ59 will not have a clean picture over 300m is this true?

[tomcctv 187]

Thank you for your replay

 

There is a coaxial cable called RJ11

RJ59 will not have a clean picture over 300m is this true?

 

 

There is no rj11 coax ........ The Rj 11 on your ptz is data .... You can get a converter Rj 11 to coax to carry the data

 

RG 11 is a coax but no good at all for CCTV

 

300m can be extended with amp .. And you can also go further with cat5

[survtech 0]

Thank you for your replay

 

There is a coaxial cable called RJ11

RJ59 will not have a clean picture over 300m is this true?

I believe you meant RG11, not RJ11. Also, it's not necessarily true that RG6 is not suitable for CCTV. With any type of coaxial cable, the capability to transport video signals is determined as much by cable construction as it is by cable size/type.

 

For best CCTV results with coax cable, it should have 100% pure copper center conductor, not copper-clad steel or aluminum. The cable should also have a shield made of woven pure copper, covering at least 95% of the inner core. That cable is typically referred to as copper/copper or bare copper. Cables with the designation "CCA" (copper-clad aluminum) or "CCS" (copper-clad steel) have limited usefulness for CCTV. The reason being that an analog CCTV signal needs pure copper for best performance / longest distance. Coaxial cables for CCTV can have additional shielding, but the primary shield must be pure copper and cover at least 95%.

 

You can obtain RG59, RG6 and RG11 with either pure copper or copper-clad construction. Clad cable is primarily used to transport HF (high frequency) signals like Broadcast or Cable TV, radio and other RF signals. Pure copper cable is used to transport low frequency signals like baseband video, audio and some types of data. If you choose bare copper, the distance capabilities without mid-span amplification and/or signal correction are:

 

RG59 - up to 1,000 feet / 300M - 20 gauge center conductor (Example: West Penn 825)

RG6 - up to 1,600 feet / 500M - 18 gauge center conductor (Example: West Penn 806)

RG11 - up to 2,000 feet / 600M - 14 gauge center conductor (Example: West Penn 811)

 

The above table is for copper/copper cable. Distance capability is drastically reduced for other types. As with any type of cabling, the correct termination (connectors) is required for best results and good practice must be followed when installing the cable (no cuts or kinks, installation following proper "bend radius" requirements, etc.).

[the toss 0]

Thank you for your replay

 

There is a coaxial cable called RJ11

RJ59 will not have a clean picture over 300m is this true?

I believe you meant RG11, not RJ11. Also, it's not necessarily true that RG6 is not suitable for CCTV. With any type of coaxial cable, the capability to transport video signals is determined as much by cable construction as it is by cable size/type.

 

For best CCTV results with coax cable, it should have 100% pure copper center conductor, not copper-clad steel or aluminum. The cable should also have a shield made of woven pure copper, covering at least 95% of the inner core. That cable is typically referred to as copper/copper or bare copper. Cables with the designation "CCA" (copper-clad aluminum) or "CCS" (copper-clad steel) have limited usefulness for CCTV. The reason being that an analog CCTV signal needs pure copper for best performance / longest distance. Coaxial cables for CCTV can have additional shielding, but the primary shield must be pure copper and cover at least 95%.

 

You can obtain RG59, RG6 and RG11 with either pure copper or copper-clad construction. Clad cable is primarily used to transport HF (high frequency) signals like Broadcast or Cable TV, radio and other RF signals. Pure copper cable is used to transport low frequency signals like baseband video, audio and some types of data. If you choose bare copper, the distance capabilities without mid-span amplification and/or signal correction are:

 

RG59 - up to 1,000 feet / 300M - 20 gauge center conductor (Example: West Penn 825)

RG6 - up to 1,600 feet / 500M - 18 gauge center conductor (Example: West Penn 806)

RG11 - up to 2,000 feet / 600M - 14 gauge center conductor (Example: West Penn 811)

 

The above table is for copper/copper cable. Distance capability is drastically reduced for other types. As with any type of cabling, the correct termination (connectors) is required for best results and good practice must be followed when installing the cable (no cuts or kinks, installation following proper "bend radius" requirements, etc.).

 

 

That is what I said AND you wont know til you've done the work installing it. But I am not talking about the signal transmission capability I am taking EMI rejection at CCTV frequencies.

[survtech 0]

That is what I said AND you wont know til you've done the work installing it. But I am not talking about the signal transmission capability I am taking EMI rejection at CCTV frequencies.

Funny, that's not what I read. You said:

RG6 is designed for HF RF (tv etc) NOT CCTV baseband

Nowhere did you say there are suitable versions of RG6 and RG11. In fact, your statements that RG6 and RG11 are not designed for CCTV is dead wrong! CATV RG6 and RG11 (and RG59, for that matter) are not suitable for CCTV but copper/copper RG6 and RG11 are perfectly usable. I even presented suitable West Penn model numbers. Did you try looking them up?

 

http://www.westpenn-wpw.com/webcatalog/BULK%20CABLES/CCTV-SECURITY/Analog_CCTV.pdf

Edited November 9, 2015 by Guest

[the toss 0]

I said - " it may or may not work for your application"

I Didnt say - "RG11 is coax but no good at all for CCTV " (tom said that )

[survtech 0]

Missed that. Still, you did say

RG6 is designed for HF RF (tv etc) NOT CCTV baseband

That was totally wrong. Try the link to West Penn's catalog. W/P 806, 2806B, AQC806, AQC2806, 25806 and 4806 are RG6 cables designed specifically for baseband video.

 

And they're not the only cable manufacturer who makes baseband video compliant RG6.

 

http://www.scpcat5e.com/bulk-cables-c-93/coaxial-cables-c-93_105/cctv-coax-c-93_105_179/rg6-cctv-coax-c-93_105_179_221/

 

https://secure.libertycable.com/products/Liberty-Wire-and-Cable/RG6-CCTV/Baseband-video-RG6-non-plenum-coaxial-cable

 

http://www.primuscable.com/store/c/719-RG6-CCTV-Coaxial-Cable.aspx

[the toss 0]

answer me this servtech - what is it that distinguishes RG6 , RG11 & RG59 from each other? Now if you look at the very limited specifications on your West Penn link then you would have to say it is the centre conductor guage because that is the only difference between the 3 according to West Penn . I shall look at your other references shortly as well as try to find you some good bedtime coax stories to read.

[survtech 0]

answer me this servtech - what is it that distinguishes RG6 , RG11 & RG59 from each other? Now if you look at the very limited specifications on your West Penn link then you would have to say it is the centre conductor guage because that is the only difference between the 3 according to West Penn . I shall look at your other references shortly as well as try to find you some good bedtime coax stories to read.

Yes, gauge of the center conductor and, of course, diameters. But center conductor size has a big effect on DC resistance, which in turn affects the ability to transport both DC and low frequency signals over distance.

 

- RG59, with a 20 gauge center conductor, has a DC resistance of 10.1 ohms per 1,000 feet and attenuation of 0.68db per 100 feet at 10MHz.

- RG6, with an 18 gauge center conductor has a DC resistance of 6.5 ohms per 1,000 feet and attenuation of 0.52db per 100 feet at 10MHz.

- RG11, with a 14 gauge center conductor has a DC resistance of 2.6 ohms per 1,000 feet and attenuation of 0.35db per 100 feet at 10MHz.

 

That demonstrates why RG6 will transport video farther than RG59 and why RG11 will transport video farther than RG6. Again, all other values being equal (95% copper shield and solid bare copper center conductor). This has nothing to do with a cable's ability to reject EMI, since all three cable types have essentially the same construction and therefor the same EMI rejection capability. In fact, other than signal attenuation, the big differences between types is cost. RG6 costs more than RG59 and RG11 is substantially more. Part of that is the cost of the copper per foot - RG11 has more copper than RG6 which has more copper than RG59.

 

By the way, the same would apply to so-called "mini-coax". We often use W/P 825 MiniMax for very short runs and it works perfectly well up to maybe 100 feet. We use it for short patches, for instance from our patch panels to our encoders. The big advantage is that its smaller diameter allows us to fit a lot more cables in the same conduit or raceway.

[the toss 0]

Great stuff - you have proved my point. While West Penn call these cables RG6 , RG11 , RG59 almost everybody else would call them long range RG59 , extra long range RG59 and standard RG59 because ALL they are is RG59 with different size centre conductors resulting in lower dc resistance and signal attenuation. When you look at a real set of electrical specs you will find that TE11 signal propagation , slew rate and signal velocity factor are ALL very different between "REAL" RG6 , RG11 & RG59 and I'm surprised that West Penn have not been challenged over their marketing practices. Having said that it is increasingly obvious that coax specs seem to be at the mercy of the marketing industry for a number of years and no one seems to do anything about it.

Another common example of the specification barstardisation it the 3" speakers capable of handling 100w. They neglect to mention it is 100 PIMP (peak instantaneous music power) which in real life is meaningless.

So survtech - cable aint cables especially if it is West Penn cable

[survtech 0]

Great stuff - you have proved my point. While West Penn call these cables RG6 , RG11 , RG59 almost everybody else would call them long range RG59 , extra long range RG59 and standard RG59 because ALL they are is RG59 with different size centre conductors resulting in lower dc resistance and signal attenuation. When you look at a real set of electrical specs you will find that TE11 signal propagation , slew rate and signal velocity factor are ALL very different between "REAL" RG6 , RG11 & RG59 and I'm surprised that West Penn have not been challenged over their marketing practices. Having said that it is increasingly obvious that coax specs seem to be at the mercy of the marketing industry for a number of years and no one seems to do anything about it.

Another common example of the specification barstardisation it the 3" speakers capable of handling 100w. They neglect to mention it is 100 PIMP (peak instantaneous music power) which in real life is meaningless.

So survtech - cable aint cables especially if it is West Penn cable

Seriously? They are not RG59 by any stretch of the imagination.

 

A cable's "RG" designation is a function of the impedance, the diameter of the center conductor and the spacing between inner and outer wires, not the actual materials used in its manufacture. The RG designations are a vestige of an old military numbering system dating from World War 2. "RG" designates the term "Radio Guide" and the "U" signifies "Uniform" or "Universal". They are mostly used to identify compatible connectors that fit the inner conductor, dielectric, and jacket dimensions of the old RG-series cables.

 

Still, calling CCTV-compatible RG6 "long range RG59" is like calling a Boeing 777 a "long range DC-3". RG59, no matter its construction materials and use, has a center conductor ranging from 23 gauge to 20 gauge, depending on the manufacturer. RG6 has an 18 gauge center conductor and RG11 has a 14 gauge center conductor. The major difference between low frequency cables and high frequency cables is the construction of both the center conductor and the shield. LF cables typically have pure copper center conductors and shield while HF cables typically use copper-clad steel or aluminum or some combination of the two.

 

HF cables also commonly use a foil shield and an integral drain wire. The main reasons for the differences in component materials and type of shield are the cost to produce (and sell) and the properties of the signals the cable is meant to carry. Steel and aluminum are substantially cheaper than copper and even adding the cladding and/or tinning process adds less to component costs than using pure copper. In fact, there are some types of hard cables that have hollow center conductors for that very reason - to save the unnecessary cost of the "missing" copper.

 

The second reason for using clad wire vs. solid copper has to to with DC and AC resistance and the "skin effect". LF signals travel totally within the diameter of a wire, so if the inner part is made of steel or aluminum, which both have far higher resistance per foot than copper (or hollow), the signal would suffer greater attenuation and would deteriorate relatively quickly. HF signals ride on the outside of a conductor, something called the "skin effect". Because of that, it is not necessary to use solid copper conductors for CATV because the inner copper part of each wire (including the individual strands of the shield) is unused. In fact, the hollow center conductor of certain "hard cable" types for HF signals is actually a plus. Due to the skin effect, the signal only travels on or near the outer surface and the higher the frequency, the shallower into the cable cross section the signal travels. Hollow wires have both the inner and outer surfaces to ride on and the inner surface adds surface area, lowering the attenuation.

 

You shouldn't use CATV or RF-rated non-pure-copper-conductor cables for LF signals for that specific reason. It can be acceptable for short distances but not longer. Copper/copper RG59, for instance, can transport video signals up to 1,000 feet but I wouldn't use clad cable for distances longer than maybe 200 feet, if that. The specs of the two types of construction say it all. For instance, West Penn 841 and 6100 are almost exactly the same except for the construction of the center conductor. 841 has a solid bare copper inner conductor, which yields a DC resistance of 6.5 ohms per 1,000 feet while 6100, which has exactly the same specs but with a copper-clad steel inner conductor, has a DC resistance of 28 ohms per 1,000 feet. If a 6.5 ohm/k resistance yields a maximum distance rating of 1,000 feet, a 28 ohm DC resistance would yield a maximum distance rating of around 230 feet.

 

Finally, I use West Penn's catalog as a reference because it is simple, yet comprehensive. Belden and other wire manufacturers agree with the gist of what W/P says, only their catalogs are not laid out as simply. Belden, in particular, manufactures so many variations of cables and their documentation leaves so much to be desired that it is almost impossible to pick a cable without spending a huge amount of time digging through their catalog and translating their specs. I don't know why you equate West Penn's specs with a speaker manufacturer's over-inflated power rating. Do you also compare the horsepower of cars to the flavor of beers?

[the toss 0]

Great stuff - you have proved my point. While West Penn call these cables RG6 , RG11 , RG59 almost everybody else would call them long range RG59 , extra long range RG59 and standard RG59 because ALL they are is RG59 with different size centre conductors resulting in lower dc resistance and signal attenuation. When you look at a real set of electrical specs you will find that TE11 signal propagation , slew rate and signal velocity factor are ALL very different between "REAL" RG6 , RG11 & RG59 and I'm surprised that West Penn have not been challenged over their marketing practices. Having said that it is increasingly obvious that coax specs seem to be at the mercy of the marketing industry for a number of years and no one seems to do anything about it.

Another common example of the specification barstardisation it the 3" speakers capable of handling 100w. They neglect to mention it is 100 PIMP (peak instantaneous music power) which in real life is meaningless.

So survtech - cable aint cables especially if it is West Penn cable

Seriously? They are not RG59 by any stretch of the imagination.

 

A cable's "RG" designation is a function of the impedance, the diameter of the center conductor and the spacing between inner and outer wires, not the actual materials used in its manufacture. The RG designations are a vestige of an old military numbering system dating from World War 2. "RG" designates the term "Radio Guide" and the "U" signifies "Uniform" or "Universal". They are mostly used to identify compatible connectors that fit the inner conductor, dielectric, and jacket dimensions of the old RG-series cables.

 

Still, calling CCTV-compatible RG6 "long range RG59" is like calling a Boeing 777 a "long range DC-3". RG59, no matter its construction materials and use, has a center conductor ranging from 23 gauge to 20 gauge, depending on the manufacturer. RG6 has an 18 gauge center conductor and RG11 has a 14 gauge center conductor. The major difference between low frequency cables and high frequency cables is the construction of both the center conductor and the shield. LF cables typically have pure copper center conductors and shield while HF cables typically use copper-clad steel or aluminum or some combination of the two.

 

HF cables also commonly use a foil shield and an integral drain wire. The main reasons for the differences in component materials and type of shield are the cost to produce (and sell) and the properties of the signals the cable is meant to carry. Steel and aluminum are substantially cheaper than copper and even adding the cladding and/or tinning process adds less to component costs than using pure copper. In fact, there are some types of hard cables that have hollow center conductors for that very reason - to save the unnecessary cost of the "missing" copper.

 

The second reason for using clad wire vs. solid copper has to to with DC and AC resistance and the "skin effect". LF signals travel totally within the diameter of a wire, so if the inner part is made of steel or aluminum, which both have far higher resistance per foot than copper (or hollow), the signal would suffer greater attenuation and would deteriorate relatively quickly. HF signals ride on the outside of a conductor, something called the "skin effect". Because of that, it is not necessary to use solid copper conductors for CATV because the inner copper part of each wire (including the individual strands of the shield) is unused. In fact, the hollow center conductor of certain "hard cable" types for HF signals is actually a plus. Due to the skin effect, the signal only travels on or near the outer surface and the higher the frequency, the shallower into the cable cross section the signal travels. Hollow wires have both the inner and outer surfaces to ride on and the inner surface adds surface area, lowering the attenuation.

 

You shouldn't use CATV or RF-rated non-pure-copper-conductor cables for LF signals for that specific reason. It can be acceptable for short distances but not longer. Copper/copper RG59, for instance, can transport video signals up to 1,000 feet but I wouldn't use clad cable for distances longer than maybe 200 feet, if that. The specs of the two types of construction say it all. For instance, West Penn 841 and 6100 are almost exactly the same except for the construction of the center conductor. 841 has a solid bare copper inner conductor, which yields a DC resistance of 6.5 ohms per 1,000 feet while 6100, which has exactly the same specs but with a copper-clad steel inner conductor, has a DC resistance of 28 ohms per 1,000 feet. If a 6.5 ohm/k resistance yields a maximum distance rating of 1,000 feet, a 28 ohm DC resistance would yield a maximum distance rating of around 230 feet.

 

Finally, I use West Penn's catalog as a reference because it is simple, yet comprehensive. Belden and other wire manufacturers agree with the gist of what W/P says, only their catalogs are not laid out as simply. Belden, in particular, manufactures so many variations of cables and their documentation leaves so much to be desired that it is almost impossible to pick a cable without spending a huge amount of time digging through their catalog and translating their specs. I don't know why you equate West Penn's specs with a speaker manufacturer's over-inflated power rating. Do you also compare the horsepower of cars to the flavor of beers?

 

 

Just about all coax can be got in CCA, CCS and Cu and that is not what we are talking about. We are talking about WHAT distinguishes one type of coax from another. You seem to think it is centre conductor size and I'm trying to tell you it is SO much more. You last paragraph actually sums it up for me. West Penns catalogue IS NOT comprehensive at all and is actually dumbed down to cater for people who cant comprehend specifications. This is amply demonstrated by comparing to the Belden catalogue (as you yourself point out). I suppose you must think Belden does this just for the fun of it.

Please dont diminish yourself by using stupid comparrisons of beer & cars. The loudspeaker reference was an example of the barstardisation of technical specifications to suit the marketing industry. I thought you would be capabale of understanding that.

[survtech 0]

Just about all coax can be got in CCA, CCS and Cu and that is not what we are talking about. We are talking about WHAT distinguishes one type of coax from another. You seem to think it is centre conductor size and I'm trying to tell you it is SO much more. You last paragraph actually sums it up for me. West Penns catalogue IS NOT comprehensive at all and is actually dumbed down to cater for people who cant comprehend specifications. This is amply demonstrated by comparing to the Belden catalogue (as you yourself point out). I suppose you must think Belden does this just for the fun of it.

Please dont diminish yourself by using stupid comparrisons of beer & cars. The loudspeaker reference was an example of the barstardisation of technical specifications to suit the marketing industry. I thought you would be capabale of understanding that.

No you're not. Belden's catalog is not well-oriented to simple cable choice because they make so many cables that are only slightly different but still maintain the RG designation. So if you're so smart, which Belden RG6 cable is the best choice for delivering baseband analog video indoors 1,200 feet? Would you use 1694/1695 or 9290 or 533945 or 633948 or what, and why?

[the toss 0]

I dont want to turn this into a "my dong is bigger than your dong" session. Why do you think Belden make so many coax cables that are only "slightly" different. (as you put it ). What is the difference between RG58 & RG59. By your train of thinking one is slightly thicker than the other and thats it. But I know that you are knowledgable enough to know better. So what is it that makes one have a Zo of 50^ and the other have a Zo of 75^. They look the same , they both can terminate in BNC connectors , cut them open and its hard to see a difference other than overall diameter. Its pretty much going the other way from comparing rg59 and RG6. The centre conductor may be smaller but that apparently doesn't make much difference other than to dc resistance and attenuation according to you. But I know that you wouldn't use RG58 for CCTV and RG59 for your CB radio.

If you look at dc & ac equivalent circuits that represent the characteristics of coax cable there is a thing called radial transconductance and radial transcapacitance and this is extremely important when calculating the TE11 propogation characteristics. Now I'm not an expert on coax cable design but I know a fair bit on the effects of that design on HF (microwave) signals. I can try to explain it as I understand it but if you asked any difficult questions I probably wouldn't be qualified to answer them.

I cannot comment on any of this if we talk digital signals - I am a child of the analogue age.