New house already pre-wired for PoE

[Philth 0]

Hey guys,

 

We just bought a house that was built with pre-wire for 5 PoE cameras. Before I run off and go to Costco to buy a Lorex set, would you mind pointing me to some good PoE cameras and NVRs that I should consider. Two camera areas are going to be lit fairly well, while the other 3, not so much.

 

For my NVR, the only thing I am wanting is a connections for all 5 cameras to run straight to the NVR and for it to be relatively quiet. The home run for the cameras is going to force me to store the NVR in my entertainment center in my living room.

 

I am leaning towards the Dahua DH-IPC-HDW4300S camera, which I found for $150 each at Newegg.

 

Lastly, where's a good site to buy from?

[traderjay 0]

Plz avoid Lorex like a plague - they are cheap plastic toy and won't survive long in an outdoor environment. I am not sure about Dahua but the brands preferred by the pros here are generally Avigilon, Axis, Hikvision and the like.

[Boogieman 1]

Plz avoid Lorex like a plague - they are cheap plastic toy and won't survive long in an outdoor environment. I am not sure about Dahua but the brands preferred by the pros here are generally Avigilon, Axis, Hikvision and the like.

Stop making stuff up. Lorex sells rebranded dahua. They are not all plastic -even if they were, there is no reason to believe plastic is any worse than metal outdoors. Costco also has a lifetime return policy.

Dont buy the dahua off newegg. At least not at 150. That is authorized distributor pricing not newegg third party seller pricing. Keeping doing more research.

[Sam228 0]

When comparing that camera to it's competition, I personally would have made the same choice (DH-IPC-HDW4300S). Hikvision offers a nearly identical line of products at a similar price, so that's where I would start comparing.

 

As the previous comments should have showed you, each brand or manufacturer has an array of products and not all of them are good but they don't all need to suck either. Re-branding is fairly popular so don't necessarily rule out camera because of the name on it. Find out who the actual manufacturer is first, and what their model number is. Your best bet to determine if you're making a good choice is to find full write-ups or reviews, and preferably ones that show video samples so you can actual see what you're about to get for your money.

 

A lot of people seem to get locked in on certain things when shopping around, but one of them usually isn't the longevity of the hardware. That's something I would pay a little attention to when it comes to comparing certain brands and the quality of the components they use. If it comes down to Dahua vs. Hikvision, and you're comparing comparable models, you can safely put longevity on the back burner as they're practically one in the same.

[Daryl733 0]

Unless you are very technical and familar with IP Network setup, I would advise avoiding IP Cameras with NVR if any of the cameras are located outside your house.

Especially those Plug and Play IP Cameras.

 

They would provide an entry point to your home network.

 

I'd done testing with multiple brands of system and cameras and they have multiple vulnerabilities if not properly configured or proper additional network switch added in. For Plug and Play IP Cameras, it would be possible to gain access to all cameras feed without knowing the password.

For DVR with Switches built in and connected to your home network, it'll be possible to gain access to your home network.

If you have unsecure drives/system connected to the network, hackers would be able to copy all files.

 

Use Analogue Cameras with Balun instead. You'll be able to utilise your existing UTP cabling.

[tomcctv 187]

Unless you are very technical and familar with IP Network setup, I would advise avoiding IP Cameras with NVR if any of the cameras are located outside your house.

Especially those Plug and Play IP Cameras.

 

They would provide an entry point to your home network.

 

I'd done testing with multiple brands of system and cameras and they have multiple vulnerabilities if not properly configured or proper additional network switch added in. For Plug and Play IP Cameras, it would be possible to gain access to all cameras feed without knowing the password.

For DVR with Switches built in and connected to your home network, it'll be possible to gain access to your home network.

If you have unsecure drives/system connected to the network, hackers would be able to copy all files.

 

Use Analogue Cameras with Balun instead. You'll be able to utilise your existing UTP cabling.

 

 

WHY Would a IP camera fitted to outside of your home give an entry point to your network ???

 

IP TO NVR is the same as ANALOG TO DVR THE security problem is how you connect to your system to the network

 

P2P is a bad thing and the worst is hikvision ...... All the self detect systems will have a problem and using that method over rides your security of your network ..... Creating your own network and your own port forwarding is the best way.

[Daryl733 0]

 

WHY Would a IP camera fitted to outside of your home give an entry point to your network ???

 

IP TO NVR is the same as ANALOG TO DVR THE security problem is how you connect to your system to the network

 

P2P is a bad thing and the worst is hikvision ...... All the self detect systems will have a problem and using that method over rides your security of your network ..... Creating your own network and your own port forwarding is the best way.

 

It's NOT the same as a DVR. The DVR's Video In Port only allows video signal in. No network traffic.

 

Basically the NVR will act as a Router.

The LAN IP port you are connecting the cameras to are like the LAN Port of your Router.

The WAN Port of the NVR will act like the WAN port of the Router.

Connecting the NVR to your network basically extend your internet to whichever device that is connected to the LAN port of the NVR.

 

Any Network Device connected to that External Network Cable will be able to get on your NVR network, which is in turn routed to your home network.

Most NVR internal router function is not so advance to do MAC Filtering (You can also bypass that by cloning the mac address of the camera you unplugged), or other form of advance authentication.

 

As the NVR resides behind your router and within your internal network, it'll have access to your internal network. You could harden that up easily by placing another router(B) behind the initial router(A) that connects your home network to the internet. Connect the NVR to router(A) and your home network to router(B). Router B will block all unauthorized connection if someone tries to gain access to your home network through your NVR. However, that will NOT protect any unauthorized access to any Plug and Play IP Cameras that had been connected to the same NVR. Using Default login, the attacker would be able to gain access to all your camera feeds, including internal camera feed if you happens to connect those to the same NVR as well. You'll need to manually lock down each and every IP cameras with password. But that means a lot of configuration and it's no longer Plug and Play.

 

 

You don't have to take my words for it. Connect the WAN port of your NVR to your home network. Connect your laptop to the LAN port of your NVR. If you leave the NVR at default with DHCP on, etc, you'll be able to surf the internet from your home network and also access any network storage/printer/etc in your home network.

Even without DHCP, you can manually set the network setting of your laptop and do the same.

 

Try it.

[tomcctv 187]

Unless you are very technical and familar with IP Network setup, I would advise avoiding IP Cameras with NVR if any of the cameras are located outside your house.

Especially those Plug and Play IP Cameras.

 

They would prov

 

Wow lets answer your reply again ..... But this time YOU forget about network.

 

Poe NVR to camera is the same as camera to dvr .... No security risk at all.

 

So YOUR answer to AVOID IP CAMERAS is bull.

 

The ops question was to use his existing pre wired Poe. And you give out dated analog as a answer.

 

And please don't try to educate me when you post crap like you have ........ It's down to how secure you make your WAN ..... EITHER ON NVR OR DVR.

[Sam228 0]

You know what's an even bigger risk to your network than an IP camera system? A computer. I don't see people flying off the handle every time a computer is plugged in, so why does it happen when people start talking about IP cameras?

 

The general impression I get is that people think they know how to make computers safe to use, but their own ignorance of IP camera security gets the better of them because they can't put "the McAfee" on them.

 

Also, someone point me in the direction of the posts with people claiming to have there home network personally targeted. I'm up for more induced paranoia.

[Daryl733 0]

Unless you are very technical and familar with IP Network setup, I would advise avoiding IP Cameras with NVR if any of the cameras are located outside your house.

Especially those Plug and Play IP Cameras.

 

They would prov

 

Wow lets answer your reply again ..... But this time YOU forget about network.

 

Poe NVR to camera is the same as camera to dvr .... No security risk at all.

 

As I mentioned in my other post. Don't take my words for it.

Plug in your laptop to one of the POE switch on your NVR which is connected to your home/office network. You'll be able to access all network that your NVR is connected to. The NVR is essentially a router.

Most NVR doesn't have Mac filtering (even that can be defeat easily by MAC Cloning), and they don't have authentication built in for devices to access from the LAN port of the WAN to the LAN.

 

example, if your router is 192.168.1.1, your NVR is connected to your router. Your NVR's internal IP range is 10.0.0.XXX.

Now, you connect your laptop to your NVR's POE port, your NVR DHCP server will assigned it 10.0.0.10 (for example).

Try opening your browser, type in 192.168.1.1 on your browser, you'll see your router's configuration page. If you got NAS, etc connected to the same network, the laptop will be able to access all as well.

 

I assumed you are not IT trained, else you would had realised it long ago.

[tomcctv 187]

I assumed you are not IT trained, else you would had realised it long ago

 

Getting personal

 

 

Your right IP is no good ..... Yes the op is best going avtech crap analog junk

 

 

Let's forget about simple secure setup networking it's no good for IP.

 

 

But yes I do know networking so let me point out your simple mistake and you might learn

 

Now, you connect your laptop to your NVR's POE port, your NVR DHCP server will assigned it 10.0.0.10 (for example).

 

DHCP is not a secure way to set up your network.

 

Also your example is crap ..... Do people connect a PC to there NVR camera port ?? Answer is no ...... Also that is local connection.

 

My first question to you was WHY is having an external camera put you system at risk ...... Not local but external

 

Unless you are very technical and familar with IP Network setup, I would advise avoiding IP Cameras with NVR if any of the cameras are located outside your house.

Especially those Plug and Play IP Cameras.

 

AVOIDING IP SYSTEM is wrong advice

 

Does not matter if it's a NVR or a DVR .........YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND that if is access remote either to a NVR or dvr the risk is the same ......it's how you make it secure

 

So back to your comment avoid IP is wrong

 

And you ask do I know anything about IT

[Daryl733 0]

My Exact Words....

Unless you are very technical and familar with IP Network setup, I would advise avoiding IP Cameras with NVR if any of the cameras are located outside your house. Especially those Plug and Play IP Cameras.

 

Your right IP is no good ..... Yes the op is best going avtech crap analog junk

I didn't say IP is crap. IP give better quality than Analogue at the same resolution. 720P IP give better quality than 720P HD-TVI/SDI from the same brand. But as I said, unless you are technical and familar with IP Network setup, avoid it as installing Plug and Play IP Cameras with default setting is a security risk especially if any cameras are located outside where intruders can gain physical access to the network point.

And yes I agree with you. That brand has been producing substandard quality products these few years. Lots of units that fail, power board burnt and melted, cameras going losing color less than 1 year, etc. I avoid them nowadays.

 

But yes I do know networking so let me point out your simple mistake and you might learn

Now, you connect your laptop to your NVR's POE port, your NVR DHCP server will assigned it 10.0.0.10 (for example).

DHCP is not a secure way to set up your network.

Also your example is crap ..... Do people connect a PC to there NVR camera port ?? Answer is no ...... Also that is local connection.

Try turning off the DHCP feature of the NVR. The Plug and Play function will no longer works. Now, refer to my original words.

Especially those Plug and Play IP Cameras.

Does disabling the DHCP makes it totally secure for NVR ? Nope. Just using the software, e.g. Videoviewer from AVTECH, SADP from HIKVISION, etc you'll be able to scan the network and find out what subnet the NVR is configured for. This is using discovery tools from the manufacturer, not even "hacking" tools.

You'll be able to manually set up your laptop to the same subnet and access the network.

Most NVR doesn't have MAC Filtering to restrict access from that unknown mac address your laptop present to the network. Even with Mac Address, you could clone the MAC address of the IP camera you removed and you'll have access as well. And most NVR doesn't have other form of secure authentication to restrict access to that network. Even if they have, Most IP Cameras also doesn't support it. Not these brand at least.

 

My first question to you was WHY is having an external camera put you system at risk ...... Not local but external

I thought I was pretty clear on this. External camera in this case, refers to a camera installed OUTSIDE your house where intruders can easily have physical access to the camera without breaking into the interior of your house/office/warehouse, etc. That Camera would have a Network Cable connected directly to the LAN port of your NVR. It'll allow a physical entry point to your NVR.

It's like pulling a network cable from your internet router and placing it outside your house. Anyone can plug a device in to that network cable and gain access to your network.

Being on the same network would allow for

1. Scan the network for any available PLUG AND PLAY camera with default password, enabling the intruder to access all connected PLUG AND PLAY Cameras feed, including other cameras installed inside the property. Users have to manually configure all cameras to non-factory login in order to present higher restriction to any intruders that gain access to the LAN port of their NVR.

2. If the NVR is connected to your internal home/office network, gain access to THAT network as well.

 

AVOIDING IP SYSTEM is wrong advice

Does not matter if it's a NVR or a DVR .........YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND that if is access remote either to a NVR or dvr the risk is the same ......it's how you make it secure

I didn't say avoid IP system. I said avoid IP system IF the installer is not equipped with the technical knowledge on how to harden the security of the cameras.

Or rather, my exact words are

Unless you are very technical and familar with IP Network setup, I would advise avoiding IP Cameras with NVR if any of the cameras are located outside your house. Especially those Plug and Play IP Cameras.

 

DVR and NVR is different. Gaining access to a analogue camera's coaxial feed will only gain you access to THAT particular cameras. Gaining access to a IP camera network point that's not sufficiently secured will enable you to gain access to the network and the external network that system is connected to. Not to mentioned all Cameras feed as well if the IP Cameras are not properly configured.

 

Do take note that there is for most NVR in the consumer market, there's no way to prevent access to the internet router that the NVR is connected to. You can only change the default password of all devices to present a harder target for intruders to attempt to acces.

 

So back to your comment avoid IP is wrong.

And you ask do I know anything about IT

I didn't say avoid IP. My exact words are

Unless you are very technical and familar with IP Network setup, I would advise avoiding IP Cameras with NVR if any of the cameras are located outside your house. Especially those Plug and Play IP Cameras.

Like someone who try to setup their internet router, but not knowledgeable to know that they have to secure their WIFI with a password, it's best to engage someone with the technical expertise to do it. Yes, they will get the router up and running together with wifi. But unknowingly, they allow everyone in the vicinity access to their internet and their internal network.

 

I seriously thought anyone who know the simple structure of how a computer network works would see the vulnerability of such a design.

I'm sorry if that offended you. Not meaning to be personal on that. I just think you didn't take the time to read my post properly and jump in to defend IP Based System irregardless of the security risk they presented if installed by people without sufficient technical skill. I am not against IP System and I used quite a large numbers of them. It's just people are installing Plug and Play cameras in their default settings without knowing the risks involved.

 

Just try out what I suggest, don't take my words for it. Connect a NVR to your internet router which is connected to the internet. Plug in your laptop to the LAN port of the NVR. Try surfing the net and also try gaining access to configuration of your router. Most likely you'll be able to do that. I tried that with a few brands, all works.

[tomcctv 187]

Just try out what I suggest, don't take my words for it. Connect a NVR to your internet router which is connected to the internet. Plug in your laptop to the LAN port of the NVR. Try surfing the net and also try gaining access to configuration of your router. Most likely you'll be able to do that. I tried that with a few brands, all works.

 

 

I think your missing the point ..... As you said above yes it will

 

But if a person goes up a ladder and uses the network cable and connects to the network with a laptop that has not been on the network and DHCP is off on the NVR then that is not going to work.

 

 

So I will stand by my first post. As long as your network is secure there is no problem having an IP camera outdoors.

[Daryl733 0]

Just try out what I suggest, don't take my words for it. Connect a NVR to your internet router which is connected to the internet. Plug in your laptop to the LAN port of the NVR. Try surfing the net and also try gaining access to configuration of your router. Most likely you'll be able to do that. I tried that with a few brands, all works.

 

But if a person goes up a ladder and uses the network cable and connects to the network with a laptop that has not been on the network and DHCP is off on the NVR then that is not going to work.

 

So I will stand by my first post. As long as your network is secure there is no problem having an IP camera outdoors.

 

Does disabling the DHCP makes it totally secure for NVR ? Nope. Just using the software, e.g. Videoviewer from AVTECH, SADP from HIKVISION, etc you'll be able to scan the network and find out what subnet the NVR is configured for. This is using discovery tools from the manufacturer, not even "hacking" tools.

You'll be able to manually set up your laptop to the same subnet and access the network.

Most NVR doesn't have MAC Filtering to restrict access from that unknown mac address your laptop present to the network. Even with Mac Address, you could clone the MAC address of the IP camera you removed and you'll have access as well. And most NVR doesn't have other form of secure authentication to restrict access to that network. Even if they have, Most IP Cameras also doesn't support it. Not these brand at least.

 

As I mentioned, for most of the consumer end and even enterprises level NVR, there's no way to secure the network by using the default NVR's LAN port. You'll need to add in smart switches to harden the network. That'll need to work hand in hand with the IP cameras as well and most IP cameras doesn't support the extra layers of authentications as well.

 

Now try this. Switch off your NVR's DHCP. Connect your laptop to the NVR, set it to a any private ip, e.g. 192.168.1.10 or 10.0.0.100. Do a scan using the discovery tool of the manufacturer. Or you could use some other network tools to scan the network. You'll be able to detect the IP addresses of the NVR and the Cameras.

Now, if the IP address of the detected NVR is 192.168.0.1, change your Laptop's IP to 192.168.0.10, Gateway to 192.168.0.1, Subnetmask 255.255.255.0, DNS set it to 8.8.8.8 , you should be able to surf the net and also access the network the NVR is connected to.

Don't have to take my words for it. Try it and see how by switching off DHCP only makes it harder, but doesn't make it secure.

 

As for staying on ladder, just hook up a WAP to that Lan cable connected to the IP Camera, you can even use one that has 2 LAP Part with POE and POE bypass. Just need a couple of mins on the ladder to insert the WAP in between the IP Camera and the Network cable, and now all you need to do is be within range of that WAP to do the deed. You don't even have to be within sight.

[tomcctv 187]

Your right best of not putting IP cameras on outside of house.

 

Like you keep saying it's impossible not to have a secure system

[Boogieman 1]

Daryl, do you honestly think that folks installing IP cameras in their homes have to worry about a tech savvy hacker tapping into their network by disconnecting a camera? if so you are an idiot. Your advice to use analog cameras in 2016 is simply wrong and foolish. The concern should be focused on securing the NVR from outside attacks. It sucks when people like you deliberately mislead folks and point them to inferior products. Now go put on your tinfoil helmet.

[SMzoo16 0]

Daryl,

 

Thank you for humoring the haterz. Your implications were perfectly clear to me from your very first post, but your continued and evolving articulation of the problem you were proposing was admirable, especially considering you did not use language similar to the inflammatory remarks of those same haterz you so nicely humored in your responses.

 

It's like they said in Battlestar Galactica: the only way to be 100% secure from network based attacks is not to be networked at all! Therefore, it would follow that multiplying the number of network devices (vulnerabilities) would make your network that much more vulnerable. Even if we say being locally attacked is ridiculous, which i don't think it is, however unlikely for most people, it's still a real vulnerability, and for some fraction of some fraction of some percentage of security systems it's probably been exploited. Why not discuss it? The OP may like "tinfoil hats" more than Daryl. We don't know. Like Daryl said, some people aren't even securing wifi with passwords... is there someone on this forum that says pointing that problem out is no more than the raving of a lunatic, and no one ever used someone else's private wifi that was unsecured? to torrent, to download files violating the DMCA and causing an ISP to send an inquiry to its unknowing customer?

 

Smile,

S

[rdagger 0]

Daryl isn’t saying that outdoor IP technology is bad, just that it requires an installer with network security training. I’d add that many camera & NVR manufacturers have a terrible track record in terms of network security. Also the WAN side is even more precarious.

 

You can never make an IP network 100% secure. If you think otherwise, you should probably google Kali, Shodan and DefCon. However, with a basic understanding of pen testing you can make sure your systems are not the low hanging fruit that hackers target. Poorly configured networks make you vulnerable to identify theft, banking fraud, stalking and a host of other criminal activities that are getting more organized, sophisticated and lucrative every day.

 

With that said, I still think that Daryl’s concerns can easily be mitigated. I just find it very disconcerting that people curtly dismiss his views which are all valid to varying degrees.

[Daryl733 0]

Glad that some of you bother to read what I actually wrote instead of just selectively seeing what you want to see.

 

Just back from Holiday !

[viziers 0]

So after reading all of this if the user wants to have a safe network he needs to have 2 networks, 1 would be his internet connection and one would be his LAN network only for the NVR (which would not be connected to his internet network).

 

Example:

 

wifi router for his home network computers and internet

 

router/switch for the NVR system. I included the router so if he wants to get a 2nd ISP connection for remote monitoring.

 

There are ways around everything weather good or bad. He can still have his outdoor IP cameras just on a completely seperate network. And IF he wants to be able to monitor his cameras remotely then he would need to have a seperate ISP connection for that. pretty easy.

 

Just my 2cents.

 

 

vizi

[MAS0001 0]

Hi there,

 

I was browsing around trying to get information on installing poe ip cctv network for my new home. The heated discussion was positive to me. Even though I would call my self an enthusiast in IP networking, the risk didn't occur to me. I find viziers solution to be the best here:

 

So after reading all of this if the user wants to have a safe network he needs to have 2 networks, 1 would be his internet connection and one would be his LAN network only for the NVR (which would not be connected to his internet network).

 

Having the NVR connected to a 4G connection that only serves for inspecting my home when I'm not around (ex. traveling) would be the best solution. Although it would be much better using the already available NAS for extra storage but the NAS is connected to the home network, putting me again at risk.

 

Thank you all

[tomcctv 187]

Hi there,

 

I was browsing around trying to get information on installing poe ip cctv network for my new home. The heated discussion was positive to me. Even though I would call my self an enthusiast in IP networking, the risk didn't occur to me. I find viziers solution to be the best here:

 

So after reading all of this if the user wants to have a safe network he needs to have 2 networks, 1 would be his internet connection and one would be his LAN network only for the NVR (which would not be connected to his internet network).

 

Having the NVR connected to a 4G connection that only serves for inspecting my home when I'm not around (ex. traveling) would be the best solution. Although it would be much better using the already available NAS for extra storage but the NAS is connected to the home network, putting me again at risk.

 

Thank you all

 

If you think that's the best info then there is no hope

[tomcctv 187]

So after reading all of this if the user wants to have a safe network he needs to have 2 networks, 1 would be his internet connection and one would be his LAN network only for the NVR (which would not be connected to his internet network).

 

Example:

 

wifi router for his home network computers and internet

 

router/switch for the NVR system. I included the router so if he wants to get a 2nd ISP connection for remote monitoring.

 

There are ways around everything weather good or bad. He can still have his outdoor IP cameras just on a completely seperate network. And IF he wants to be able to monitor his cameras remotely then he would need to have a seperate ISP connection for that. pretty easy.

 

Just my 2cents.

 

 

vizi

 

 

Why on earth does he need two ISP. Why not just use the one he has .......... It sounds like doing the same thing without the stupid extra cost

[Boogieman 1]

Hi there,

 

I was browsing around trying to get information on installing poe ip cctv network for my new home. The heated discussion was positive to me. Even though I would call my self an enthusiast in IP networking, the risk didn't occur to me. I find viziers solution to be the best here:

 

So after reading all of this if the user wants to have a safe network he needs to have 2 networks, 1 would be his internet connection and one would be his LAN network only for the NVR (which would not be connected to his internet network).

 

Having the NVR connected to a 4G connection that only serves for inspecting my home when I'm not around (ex. traveling) would be the best solution. Although it would be much better using the already available NAS for extra storage but the NAS is connected to the home network, putting me again at risk.

 

Thank you all

That is the dumbest solution...You know that you can segment your network right? You dont need to cutoff your system from the internet...or you can use vpn...Please dont listen to some of the uneducated posts here....anyone can sign up and post, most have no clue..

[MAS0001 0]

OK guys. I get it. My solution wasn't the best. I'm here to gain from your experience and learn more. In my part of the world, leaving it to an "expert" would eventually result in an overpriced analog cctv system with an outdated DVR.

 

Some of my friends spent a small fortune for an IP camera solution that was installed by an "expert" who had all usernames and passwords set to the default admin/admin. He didn't even set the system time right. Anyone with a web browser can access his system and you can never access the correct footage from the archive. So I have to learn about this.

 

If you think that's the best info then there is no hope

 

There is still hope I'll keep researching and will eventually have one secure network

 

Why on earth does he need two ISP. Why not just use the one he has .......... It sounds like doing the same thing without the stupid extra cost

 

It was just an idea

 

That is the dumbest solution...You know that you can segment your network right? You dont need to cutoff your system from the internet...or you can use vpn...Please dont listen to some of the uneducated posts here....anyone can sign up and post, most have no clue..

 

Lesson learned