Cameras with IR built in or IR Floods??

I have recently taken over the instalation of a 12v 25 camera system over a several acre site both in and outdoors. The System is wired using Cat 5 cables and baluns.

There has been much debate among the instalation team as to whether it is better to purchase more expensive cameras with built in IR or cheaper cameras in casings and Mount one or two IR floodlights below it.

What are the pros and cons of each method?? Which would be cheaper and which would give better quality??

Also is it always best to have colour cameras or do black and white cameras have there uses??

Many Thanks

There has been much debate among the instalation team as to whether it is better to purchase more expensive cameras with built in IR or cheaper cameras in casings and Mount one or two IR floodlights below it.

hi. its the other way round cameras are better without ir. what range do your cameras need to see. do you have power at each location ???

Hi

There is power available at all the camera locations.

The range varies with each camera. Anything from a few metres to a hundred metres.

It depends,

cost effective could be either way, cheap color only camera with a visible light is cheaper and full color, except likely burn more electricity if the lights dont already exist, unless using visible LEDs.

BW cameras are useful for applications where it will always be dark, eg. nightclubs. or if one is just concerned about night time and not the day a BW camera can save alot of money. BW cameras are difficult to locate these days, easiest to come by are the mini BW bullets or board cameras from KT&C, and BW domes from Everfocus - most other manufacturers discontinued them now.

There are several levels of cameras with built in IR, from cheap color IR cameras to TDN IR bullets to full blown mortgage payments like the bosch extreme cameras. Built in IR is supposed to be a plug and play solution, sometimes it is not ....

It can cost the client less labor as its only 1 product to mount, just point and shoot and hope it works at night .. though when doing a proper day night application it is suggested that the installer setup during the day AND at night, and with IR also setup under pitch dark .. so labor cost can rise anyway.

Depending on the location you may have to deal with bugs such as spiders living on the front of the camera due to the IR light.

Additionally and the most important is that the IR will typically only go the direction the camera is pointed in, in other words you cant fine tune the IR direction like you could if it was separate - except in the case of the Bosch Extreme IR cameras which have physical IR LED adjustments.

Also with good separate IR you can adjust the output level of the IR, while most with built in IR you cannot (except for example the Bosch again). The camera with built in IR can be a very good camera, or a very bad camera, it depends on the camera you buy.

The reason for the IR is typically for pitch dark applications, eg the inside of a store at night, a warehouse where the lights may or may not be left on at night, a back yard with no lights, etc. If its a cheap color IR camera then the reason is normally because the camera wont see much of anything in low light without it, and in those cases its mostly just a color camera with the IR cut filter removed so it can pick up the IR in the dark. If its a TDN camera with built in IR the camera is normally a good camera but the IR is added as a backup - but ofcourse its still no Panasonic camera.

Most home users will get the camera with the IR anyway incase the lights go off or its too dark, and installers who did not look at a location at night when quoting a job would just quote with IR to be safe. With TDN Bullet cameras most come with IR anyway so little choice there, but one can normally disable it. Just know when and where to use them, and when and where not to use them - they have their place in the CCTV industry.

Bottom line, I prefer a camera without IR, honestly Its more work setting up an IR camera properly as you have 3 applications to deal with (day, night, pitch dark), in fact I prefer a color only camera as the same can be said for a TDN camera which is a single camera trying to do 2 jobs (day, night). Install a color camera, install visible lighting, and be done with it. But ultimately the application and the client will decide what you need to use.

You can have more options with separate IR but it can also be more expensive in some cases. What you use will generally depend on what the client can afford. If they are cheap then its not worth the time and money in even worrying about it, just sell them cameras with built in IR if you are unsure of the lighting level.

Why would you put in IR floodlights in preference to other visible light floodlights? Cheap IRs will give tiny patches of 'light' while the remaining acres are pitch black and unmonitored.

There has to be a compelling reason to use IR light.

As tomcctv mentioned in a previous post, there are few institutions which bother with IR (other than prisons, airports or other light-sensitive installations). The use of IR light has to work to the advantage of the surveillance setup and not to the benefit of the criminal or interloper.

IR also has a rapid drop off in efficacy. i.e. the IR lamps begin losing their strength from the moment you switch them on. Expensive IR solutions take this into account and build in design solutions to compensate for this.

On this 'several acre site', presumably it would already use photocell-activated sodium vapour or metal halide area lights. If so, there should be sufficient lighting for low lux box cameras.

Also, what's with the 12volt installation? The first item on the budget ought to be an industry standard 24-28 vac power supply.

Unless you want to become an enthusiast or an aficionado, don't even mention the word 'cheap' on this forum. Generally speaking, the so-called expensive solutions end up costing far less in the long run through greater image efficacy; durability and less down-time. What starts out cheap inevitably costs three times what it would have cost if you had followed the advice of the experienced forum members here who graciously educate all of us on Good Solid Solutions: Solutions which deliver images that can stand up as Evidence in Court.

As tomcctv mentioned in a previous post, there are few institutions which bother with IR

Perhaps where you live, but not in the rest of the world.

IR also has a rapid drop off in efficacy. i.e. the IR lamps begin losing their strength from the moment you switch them on. Expensive IR solutions take this into account and build in design solutions to compensate for this.

I have IR LEDs in the field for over 10 years, power is as strong as ever, only a few bulbs out of several hundred have blown.

Also, what's with the 12volt installation? The first item on the budget ought to be an industry standard 24-28 vac power supply.

When staying within a budget one can not always find 24VAC cameras that will fit the application, without spending hundreds of dollars more.

I agree to use 24VAC when you can and especially for longer distances, but to say that is all one can use is ridiculous. Clients want to save money, and arguing the benefits of 24VAC over 12VDC will not change that fact - but it could loose one the job.

Billions of systems in the world are using 12VDC so standards have obviously changed. The end result is what matters, and having used both 12VDC and 24VAC cameras I can guarantee that using one power supply or the other will not make the cameras "see" any better, or give one better evidence for court. In fact I have had more problems with 24VAC cameras than I have had with 12VDC cameras, but that is a topic for another day.

If anything the main thing to watch out for is the distance when dealing with 12VDC, they do draw more current. That said for years I have used extreme IR cameras that draw 1.5a+ of power using even 24VAC, so something like 550ma with a 12VDC camera is childs play. If one has unlimited funds then certainly buy the 24VAC cameras, but unfortunately that does not always happen in real life.

Well since we are talking about 'acres', the voltage drop seemed like a given.

So what? Are you saying that anyone contemplating a new 25 camera installation should honestly push ahead with a 12 volt DC setup?

Also:

This is where it always comes down to the devil in the detail. When I started out with CCTV I threw myself in the deep end with a PTZ installation. Others said it took a lot of moxie to do that and, sure, there were more than a few sleepless nights figuring out how to get some very expensive equipment running. I used a 12 VDC power supply and this was the beginning of months of problems which were finally resolved when I threw out the 12 volt transformers and went to a Pelco MCS1620-SB. What a beautiful unit this is – 110/240 selectable Inputs and 24-28 switchable VAC Output with Circuit Breakers. The DC power issues were implicated in frying two backboards and I ended up buying a lab power supply to adjust the voltage and increase the amperage. All of that didn’t matter, because it never fixed the problem. The minute I installed the Pelco, all the power problems disappeared. That was about a year ago. I estimate that the power problems caused by those 12 volt power supplies ended up costing me 4 or 5 times what the Pelco MCS1620-SB cost.

Simple fixed cameras may not be so sensitive to power supply problems. Perhaps they will take anything thrown at them or keep running well below 13.8 volts DC. I dunno. And you could argue that if any client can get by on 12 volts then so be it. But what happens when they want to put in a PTZ or other sensitive equipment without 24 VAC? They’d end up with a pig’s breakfast potentially with 12 volt cameras on one set of power supplies and 24 VAC PTZs on another. It’d look like a high school science project gone wrong.

IR also has a rapid drop off in efficacy. i.e. the IR lamps begin losing their strength from the moment you switch them on. Expensive IR solutions take this into account and build in design solutions to compensate for this.

I have IR LEDs in the field for over 10 years, power is as strong as ever, only a few bulbs out of several hundred have blown.

It depends of their quality. If LEDs are broken one by one, it looks as drop off in efficency in every month. LEDs working temperature and heat radiator have great influence.

There is also drop in efficiency while warming up during first minutes after powered.

Generally IR LED illumination is less in power efficiency in 50-100 times than discharge lamps of visible light. Thus to get the same equivalent light flux for a camera in IR we should spend in 50-100 times more electric power than using discharge lamp of visible light. However IR LEDs have directional round symmetric radiation which allows to form a narrow beam in long distance.

Rory said:

I have IR LEDs in the field for over 10 years, power is as strong as ever, only a few bulbs out of several hundred have blown.

I believe that the Aegis IR company was acquired by Bosch.

The 20 page Aegis IR pamphlet states on the very first written page:

"A common problem with ALL LED BASED ILLUMINATORS is the continual degradation of the optical output level and therefore performance over time. The optical output of a standard LED illuminator will degrade by up to 10% in the first few months of operations and this will continue to degrade further over the course of the lamp."

Aegis have taken this deterioration into consideration to produce IRs that they claim maintain constant IR output.

I estimate that the power problems caused by those 12 volt power supplies ended up costing me 4 or 5 times what the Pelco MCS1620-SB cost.

 

Simple fixed cameras may not be so sensitive to power supply problems. Perhaps they will take anything thrown at them or keep running well below 13.8 volts DC. I dunno. And you could argue that if any client can get by on 12 volts then so be it. But what happens when they want to put in a PTZ or other sensitive equipment without 24 VAC? They’d end up with a pig’s breakfast potentially with 12 volt cameras on one set of power supplies and 24 VAC PTZs on another. It’d look like a high school science project gone wrong.

Cameras with IR LEDs need more power than cameras without IR in several times.

It is necessary to calculate power supply wiring while designing CCTV using Ohm's law. After proper calculating voltage drop on each section of wires and choosing right cables and power supply locations there must be no problem with 12VDC.

24 VAC allows to use cheaper cables with less section area, but it has own limits too. The calculation is needed to make right choose. As a rule I used 12VDC or 220VAC (in long distances) in my CCTV designs. 24VAC I used just several times.

The optical output of a standard LED illuminator will degrade by up to 10% in the first few months of operations and this will continue to degrade further over the course of the lamp."

It is insignificant. In reality it is almost impossible to detect on image from a camera 10% difference in IR power flux .

Discharge lamps degrade too. And video sensors degrade.

Of course they do Stanislav.

We seem to have two concurrent arguments here. (1) The value of IRs and (2) Power supply issues.

I have tried to raise awareness on this before.

The IR 'spruikers' have never justified the use of IRs on any rational basis.

(i) The cost of power to run the IRs is seldom mentioned.

(ii) The capital investment of adequate IRs is ignored.

(iii) IRs in bullet cameras typically have a limited range and therefore limit the camera's field of view.

(iv) What actual advantage is there in using IRs over visible light? (apart from blindsiding a perpetrator)

It seems to boil down to a psychological 'need' in the customer. They get a little thrill seeing the dark lit up by invisible light for the first time. They don't consider the ramifications of such a camera. A spotlight of invisible light surrounded by darkness. A sharp criminal would go out with an IR camera to locate all the IRs on a job and simply work around them.

IR provides hidden surveillance. It is like using pin-hole cameras. In some cases we can catch on camera much more when a surveillance subject would not know about control.

In short hidden surveillance can be useful to detect crime. But if you need to prevent crime when visible light is much preferable.

Rory said:

 

I have IR LEDs in the field for over 10 years, power is as strong as ever, only a few bulbs out of several hundred have blown.

 

I believe that the Aegis IR company was acquired by Bosch.

 

The 20 page Aegis IR pamphlet states on the very first written page:

 

"A common problem with ALL LED BASED ILLUMINATORS is the continual degradation of the optical output level and therefore performance over time. The optical output of a standard LED illuminator will degrade by up to 10% in the first few months of operations and this will continue to degrade further over the course of the lamp."

 

Aegis have taken this deterioration into consideration to produce IRs that they claim maintain constant IR output.

To be honest I dont really care what they put down on paper, calculations, etc.

I know what I have used in the field and what still works today.

It was Extreme CCTV (aka Derwin) BTW. Their LEDs are nothing special, and they run so hot after a couple minutes that one would burn the skin, yet they go years without issue.

That said even with $200 TDN IR bullets, I have some here that show no degrade in IR Output over 5 years, at least not visible enough to notice a difference.

Well since we are talking about 'acres', the voltage drop seemed like a given.

So what? Are you saying that anyone contemplating a new 25 camera installation should honestly push ahead with a 12 volt DC setup?

Its not whether they are to contemplate it or not, they must first decide what camera they want to use, what camera they can afford, then the wiring and power comes after that. So yes, if they want 25x 700TVL indoor color domes @ $60 each, then those will be 12VDC.

Also:

This is where it always comes down to the devil in the detail. When I started out with CCTV I threw myself in the deep end with a PTZ installation. Others said it took a lot of moxie to do that and, sure, there were more than a few sleepless nights figuring out how to get some very expensive equipment running. I used a 12 VDC power supply and this was the beginning of months of problems which were finally resolved when I threw out the 12 volt transformers and went to a Pelco MCS1620-SB. What a beautiful unit this is – 110/240 selectable Inputs and 24-28 switchable VAC Output with Circuit Breakers. The DC power issues were implicated in frying two backboards and I ended up buying a lab power supply to adjust the voltage and increase the amperage. All of that didn’t matter, because it never fixed the problem. The minute I installed the Pelco, all the power problems disappeared. That was about a year ago. I estimate that the power problems caused by those 12 volt power supplies ended up costing me 4 or 5 times what the Pelco MCS1620-SB cost.

You are talking about PTZ cameras and high current draw.

Same as with the Extreme (now bosch) IR cameras I only ever use 24VAC.

To use 12VDC the current draw would just be too high, in the 3.6a+ range.

Simple fixed cameras may not be so sensitive to power supply problems. Perhaps they will take anything thrown at them or keep running well below 13.8 volts DC. I dunno. And you could argue that if any client can get by on 12 volts then so be it. But what happens when they want to put in a PTZ or other sensitive equipment without 24 VAC? They’d end up with a pig’s breakfast potentially with 12 volt cameras on one set of power supplies and 24 VAC PTZs on another. It’d look like a high school science project gone wrong.

If they add a PTZ then you add the appropriate power supply for that.

You can also buy dual 12VDC and 24VAC distributed power supply boxes.

What happens when they have 40+ cameras?

They need multiple power supplies anyway.

Most cant afford the 32 channel 24VAC power supplies to begin with, so its typical to use 16 channel boxes and you use multiple ones if needed. I come from years of using ONLY 24VAC so its not like I havent been there done that, in most cases it just makes no difference. Its the distance and current draw if anything. Ive used the best 24VAC power supplies out there also, big really heavy boxes, all fused individually isolated, yeah its great but the cost is outrageous in most cases, especially if you are shipping them overseas and reselling them to a client and have to add a markup.

I'm doing a 47 camera system now, more than half are 12VDC (eg indoor color domes in a store and office, some color IR also, the 24VACs are a mixture of WDR Domes, Varifocal Color Domes for cash, and Outdoor TDN Bullets with minimal IR that will likely be disabled), thats 3x 12VDC 16 output boxes, and 1x 24VAC 16 output box, all neatly wall mounted in the IT room along with the rack mounted DVRs. They have extra power left over for additional cameras, but if they start adding dozens more, then it will require additional power supplies.

This is the industry, nothing unusual about it, how else would you have people do it? Say use all Panasonic Box cameras in big housings or all Panasonic Domes and then add Extreme or Raymax IR if its too dark? Clients will run to the next company faster than you can say 123, been there done that, and stay broke because most people just cant afford it, and most clients WANT domes and WANT Infrared these days. if you dont do it, they go elsewhere anyway.

AND BTW Rack mount PSUs are extremely expensive. That ofcourse would be the preferred method with dozens of DVRs, but also they only come in 24VAC, so you would be talking about a system 10-20x the cost in the end after using all high end 24VAC cameras and those rack PSUs. Sorry but when you show a client the cost of that compared to a wall mount PSU they simply say NO THANKS.

IR provides hidden surveillance. It is like using pin-hole cameras.

this is what people think .... were infact it is the complete opposite. ir helps the intruder

The IR 'spruikers' have never justified the use of IRs on any rational basis.

1-Inside a store where there is little to no light.

2-Warehouse with little to no light

3-Back yard with no light ..

4-any app with little to no light ...

How much more justification do you need.

There was a jewellery store burglary the other day, if it werent for the IR domes the criminals never would have been identified as there was just NO LIGHT. Look im as tired of IR as the next guy, my eyes are not the same anymore after years of dealing with it, but in some cases they are absolutely required.

(i) The cost of power to run the IRs is seldom mentioned.

200ma more than without if using 12VDC in the average TDN IR Bullet/Dome.

(ii) The capital investment of adequate IRs is ignored.

What do you call adequate, what exactly is your experience with using IR? I have been doing 100% Day Night Pitch Dark jobs for a decade, pretty much everything I do is in the dark, and I have used so many different types of IR over the years, and tested over and over and over myself just to know how well or not different products work. So again, all these questions you have, yet do you actually have any experience with Infrared installations out in the field, and if so how many jobs? Did you spend the entire summer from 12am-5am testing different IR cameras like I did? Just curious

(iii) IRs in bullet cameras typically have a limited range and therefore limit the camera's field of view.

In most cases no more limited than a separate IR, unless you will be spending $1000 on one of the Extreme's or Rayteks to get a 60 degree beam. And even then its not much different. You get typically 30 degree beams in the cheap color IRs, sometimes can find 60 degree beams, many come with dual beams now like 2x 30s or a 30 and a 15 . Okay so its not great, but the whole idea is to have an object for it to reflect off anyway. How wide is your camera lens to be useful to begin with, 110 degrees, 90, 60?

Separate IR with 60 degree beams have less IR output than those with a 30 degree beam. So if you want further range in that case you either have to overload the power or add 2 IRs anyway. So yes separate IR still needs multiple IR to fill the entire width of a wide angle FOV. (see below of IR built in and how as you say it does not cover the entire FOV). I used 60 degree separate $1000 IR with a 2.8mm camera and I still have black edges.

(iv) What actual advantage is there in using IRs over visible light? (apart from blindsiding a perpetrator)

Many clients just dont want to add visible light. Thats it.

Example would be a big light in your backyard, some people cant sleep with that (I can).

Stores, they just dont want to light up the place so people can pick and choose what to steal before breaking in. A back area of a building, why have a ton of lights burning tons of current? IR LEDs from a camera burns ALOT less current. Ofcourse there are the hidden camera scenerios also, but I rarely come across those myself. Its simple, there is no light in the store or yard, they are not going to add any, so if you want to see anything then you have to use IR. thats it, simple, done.

Really I believe you and tom are just so used to seeing cheap color IR cameras that it has twisted your perspective of built in Infrared. And I would agree, cheap IR cameras rarely have enough IR to fill the width of the FOV for outdoor applications, in a small room or office, no problem at all though.

These are all cameras with Built in IR ...

Shows comparison from cheap 4mm color IR to TDN IR with 2.8mm lens.

Notice the bottom left which is a 3.8mm lens, the IR covers the entire FOV, $100 camera.

Notice only one that really has any black on the sides is the 2.8mm and thats a given as that is around 110 degrees.

No IR spots here ...

Wow this one is a 10 year old IR camera ...

Amd just for grins and giggles, $40 IR domes in a store with no lights at night.

They are just that cheap, they are NOT going to add lights and run the power needed for that.

cheap $40 color IR even lasts well through the hurricane

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this is a 2.8 mm FOV, not bad coverage from an IR bullet

You can see just how dark it gets there when the light goes off ..

AND OH YEAH the light DOES GO off .. any spike in electric that light is off for at least 5-10 minutes .. time enough to get robbed .. so tell me how I am going to see in that ... without IR LOL.

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IR provides hidden surveillance. It is like using pin-hole cameras.

 

 

this is what people think .... were infact it is the complete opposite. ir helps the intruder

So the intruder can use the IR to see in the dark? LOL

IR provides hidden surveillance. It is like using pin-hole cameras.

 

 

this is what people think .... were infact it is the complete opposite. ir helps the intruder

Yall have magic people in the UK aye? They can see in the IR spectrum range?

Also your store owners must be rich rich to leave on strong lights 24/7

BTW this is my yard, and nobody can tell me I dont need IR - in 2 camera locations I DO NEED IR.

I have used all the latest and greatest here, the monalisa, heck even the BW exview bullet .. and IR it is if I want any kind of moderately clear video at night ... btw all cameras I got for free/used/broke then fixed ... the top right IR is actually a TDN IR bullet with a $400+ Extreme EX26LED. I got it for free, so might as well flood that area. I wouldn't mind installing a nice big light there, but my landlords wont let me, and I cant afford to to it anyway - electricity is expensive these days also. Note the cheap color only bullets where there is alot of light.

oh yeah, monalisa without IR .. in BW mode (not day night mode).

Monalisa with IR .. see .. now i can see the criminal.

Carried on .. IR vs no IR ...

I think the point is that IR does not surprise burglars like PIR activated visible light - the Deer in the Headlights Scenario.

With IR, a typical burglar, graffitti artist or junkie etcetera will slowly continue to try and prise open that window; work the locks on your car; climb over your back fence; and take his or her time trying to break into your property because they do not know they have been detected. The point others have made is that the invisble IR offers ZERO deterent and may in fact assist the criminal element because they are not consciously interupted.

Rory, I think there is a disparity between CCTV Enthusiasts and CCTV as Commerce. CCTV for commercial, profit making applications will always have to crunch the economics and balance costs against any customer's expectations. You will always have to give the customer what he wants no matter how stupid the request. Enthusiasts, on the other hand, do not reduce CCTV to economic expediency. Enthusiasts may try to build elegant systems that are not determined by the bottom line. You, however, always reduce the argument - and I mean always - to economic expediency.

If an enthusiast wants to instal low lux cameras and PIR activated LEDs then so be it. It is my opinion that the folk behind the 25 camera installation ought to approach the problem in a certain way, while you argue that, because you have installed thousands of cameras, no alternative approach is unacceptable. My alternative approach is certainly acceptible to me.

Yall have magic people in the UK aye? They can see in the IR spectrum range?

So the intruder can use the IR to see in the dark? LOL

no rory. but you are and looks like you have been missing the point for years. in using IR cameras.

we are talking about ir built into cameras. we would never use ir cameras on say state homes ???? like alot of people are finding out. intruder at night only needs to set his mobile to picture mode point at house. all ir cameras are now detected also the direction there are covering and giving blind spots away.

buy hey rory if you agree that IR is as good as covert (which is the post i replied to) then you have learned something) its not

I am really impressed, Rory. IR has many fields of application. Visible light can deter from crime, but it can also attract undesirable people and bother in many cases. It is necessary to think carefully, which illumination type is preferable in each case.

no rory. but you are and looks like you have been missing the point for years. in using IR cameras.

Really. so what point do you call the non IR cameras I also installed for years, not every camera on a job are all the same you know. Every application calls for a different solution.

we are talking about ir built into cameras. we would never use ir cameras on say state homes ????

Thats certainly up to you, but just because you wont, doesnt mean others wont.

like alot of people are finding out. intruder at night only needs to set his mobile to picture mode point at house. all ir cameras are now detected also the direction there are covering and giving blind spots away.

I hope you are not relying on just cameras to stop these super criminals.

buy hey rory if you agree that IR is as good as covert (which is the post i replied to) then you have learned something) its not

I guess those magical criminals in the UK can see Infrared light so they are bad like that .