Need Help with Setting up Surveillance System

Hello all.

I offer basic technological services to small businesses (usually setting up their computers, printers, websites, simple iPhone/Android apps etc.) and recently got asked to quote a simple surveillance setup. This was something I want to get into anyways, so thought this would be the perfect opportunity to learn and grow the business a little. The requirements of the client are:

- 2 Cameras (mounted on poles as the landlord does not want anything mounted on the building)

- 2 Spotlights

- 2 Solar Panel Spotlights with motion sensor

- 2 fake cameras

- 1 week of recording retained

The area to cover is a loading dock, lets say 20m by 15m. I'm expecting the poles to be 7m tall above ground (I have to provide them), and the cameras will be connected to a system inside. So I'd guess I can pole mount the cameras, have the cables run through the pole to the ground, and then via conduit along the ground (there is a railing foundation I can run them along) to inside the building to the area they want the system set up at.

I've done a bit of researching and reading on this forum, and have come up with some ideas, but still have a lot of questions and uncertainty, and was hoping that I could get some help here.

1) In regards to the 2 cameras, I need them to be IP66 rated as the environment they will be placed in is exposed to snow and rain, and temperatures varying from -40C in the winter to +35C in the summers (Edmonton, Alberta, Canada). It seems a lot of people are going with the HikVision cameras, and this one seems to meet the requirement: DS-2CD3132-I. I checked on AliExpress and its pretty reasonable, under $100 USD (http://www.aliexpress.com/item/DS-2CD2132F-I-Hikvision-3-0MP-Dome-IP-Camera-DS-2CD2132F-IS-CCTV-Camera-Waterproof-Mini/32255012902.html). Is this a good camera for the purpose? $100 seems too cheap, or am I mistaken? Considering the motion sensor spotlights should come on in case of movement, I'm guessing the IR night-vision on the camera doesn't need to be amazing. What is the lens I need? 2.8mm or 4mm?

2) What sort of pole bracket do you all recommend? Is there a standard out there that everyone uses? Are there any issues running the cables within the pole and then through conduit? Yes, easily accessible on the ground and therefore potential for vandalism, but aside from that are there any issues?

3) I see the DS-2CD3132-I camera supports PoE, but the specs state "DC12V / PoE(802.3af)". Does it mean it requires both a 12V supply and PoE? Or does it mean either sources will work? Sorry, I'm a little new to PoE. Do I need a splitter and an injector at both the supply side and the camera side? Or does the camera do the splitting within itself? Also, can someone please recommend a decent PoE network switch? Expansion to 4 cameras might be required 2 years down the road, so I'd rather go with a decent switch right off the bat.

4) In regards to the software, I was planning on using iVMS-4200 if I were to go with the HikVision cameras. From my understanding, its just a software and therefore needs a computer set up for it to work. Is this correct? If yes, do I really need a surveillance grade harddrive? Can I not build a PC for the system with standard off the shelf harddrives? Also, how easy is the iVMS-4200 software to set up and use? Does the network switch simply attach to the desktop tower? Again, very new in this area, so not sure if detecting cameras is as easy as detecting printers on the network. Also, I'm assuming the software can be configured to store recordings for a week and then delete them, right?

5) Instead of using a custom PC and software, is there no off-the-shelf NVR I can use which has surveillance software preloaded and just needs a monitor, keyboard, mouse attached? Just wondering as I don't want to spend time building a custom PC and installing software etc. Does the HikVision DS-7616NI-SE/P fit the bill? Is it overkill?

6) Might seem like a dumb question, but is this something anyone here would recommend: http://www.costco.ca/Lorex-4-Channel-500GB-720p-HDDVR-with-4-HD-Cameras.product.100155304.html

Its Under $400 CAD, and comes with Costcos return policy and warranty which would be great. Plus has two additional cameras which I can always use in case of a failure 6 months in.

Lastly, have I missed anything? Any tips? Again, I'm very new in this field, so please talk down to me like I'm a kid. I'll try and reply promptly and will update the thread as replies come in.

Thanks!

1) Weather & IP66

Being in Arizona, I'm not as familiar with which cameras would deal well with harsh cold -40C. +51...sure...the Hik's do fine. They also do great in the wet.

Aliexpress-type buying (ebay and even some Amazon) issues:

* the firmware may not be what you want (or even in the language you want)

* you may not be able to update the firmware...usually not ever an issue, but a firmware update can be a fix to some IP camera woes

2) Pole

They can be pricey. Shipping can kill the deal. But it's just a pole as long as it's strong and you can mount it up ok.

I've used a lot of existing poles, even light poles.

One company I was at recently, the pole had a small amount of current running through it...probably wasn't grounded from all the other crap the company had on it...hehe.

3) There are a few cheap IP cams out that say POE that aren't. But the DS-2CD3132-I does true POE. Power from several choices such as

* the NVR itself if it has POE ports

* a network switch with POE

* or a POE injector

then just run the CAT 5e or CAT6 out to the camera and plug it in.

Back to weather though...the cam comes with a water-resistant cover for the network cable plug and this will mean you can't have a pre-made plug but instead thread the cover on, then make your own RJ-45 end.

4) Yes, it's software if you're going to use a PC as your NVR. It's easy to use.

4b) hard drives - as long as the hard drive doesn't die on you, you're good. There are drives out now marketed toward "surveillance" and I'm using a number of them myself. But I haven't found a noticeable difference yet. Maybe in a few more years I'll notice if they last longer.

Seagate says theirs is 30% more reliable (were they skimping before?)

Others claim speed (security camera data rates are well below the average hard drive's write-rates anyway)

4c) network switch and the PC and the cameras simply need to be on the same local network. Switches are our friends for when we have a lot of network devices spread out.

A switch with POE simply adds power for the specific ports.

5) NVR

Yes, an NVR will do pretty much everything the PC will do and my customers find it to be less work going forward. No Windows-fun or anything. Sure, if you're a DIY-hobby person, go PC...have fun with it. The customers I work with want to never have to worry about it so they can focus on their business...so I end up the NVR route most of the time.

The NVR you showed connects to the network via CAT5/6...no prob. Hik (and others) make NVR's with built-in POE ports, so you can power the cameras directly from the NVR. So it'll depend on how you're running your cabling and if you're running all the camera cables back to the NVR or some other network layout.

6) 720P is 1 megapixel. So it depends on the goals of what you want to see. With lower resolution, you'll lose details in the image such as being able to read a license place or lettering on a person's shirt. Being able to identify faces is another popular goal. Simple text in this paragraph won't cut it, so hop on YouTube and check out comparisons between 1, 2, and 3+ megapixel systems.

6b) Costco - The return policy is not only good...it's great! On the down side, if the NVR goes out, does that mean that you have to take down the whole system, and then take it back to Costco just to replace the single NVR?

6c) Costco (or any retail stores)...I've replaced a number of retail-store systems. Even ones that say IP66 rated on them. They are designed for cost and they do seem to fail...which is good for business for me I suppose, but a headache for the original user. Like I said...we don't get much snow in Arizona, but I can say that +51C temperatures, the lower-end retail-store cameras don't do as well.

6d) When buying a package system, it'll typically include cable of standard lengths. This will mean your close cameras will have leftover cable and your far cameras won't have enough. So plan on buying some odds and ends of cables or learn to make your own (not hard)

7) Labor

Don't underestimate the cost of your labor. Running cables, adjusting cameras, configuring customer's networks and routers...it takes time. Better to under-promise and over-deliver.

8.) Service

Most of my customers become repeat customers. They all seem to want to expand later or a truck backed into a camera or somebody unplugged all their router stuff. So repeat service is very common. Sometimes a camera will die under my warranty or one my installers did something odd, so we're back out there as a free warranty service. Like any business, sort that out ahead of time.

9) Fake cameras

Some look ok, others not so much.

For some customers I've used an analog camera that I'm not going to be installing for people anymore as a fake camera...plugged it into power so the IR's would glow red.

10) Week of recording

Most of my small business customers go with motion recording which gives two positives:

* extends recording times out to a month or two in most cases (depending on the number of cameras, resolution, and the amount of motion)

* Much easier to locate a video clip when compared to continuous 24/7 recording

Hi zr1. Firstly, thanks for the detailed reply.

I should have been more detailed in my original post. I do not have to physically supply the poles itself. I just have to specify the height and type of pole needed, and the clients contractor will supply and install it on site.

1) Weather and IP66 cameras: for a pole mounted operation, would you recommend a bullet style camera, or a dome type? Either way I'm thinking of custom building some sort of weather protection for the camera, but not quite sure how. Hopefully there is some off-the-shelf product I can use. I do find it suspect that a $100 camera can be weatherproof - especially since AXIS cameras are $1000+ with the same rating. Since this is my first time for such an application I'm a little nervous. Don't want to spend a weekend each month for the next 12 months replacing the cameras for free under warranty....

2) What sort of bracket would you recommend. I see this pole bracket (http://www.hikvision.com/en/us/Products_show.asp?id=4206), but the pictures are very strange looking and I can't seem to figure out how it works.

3) Thanks. Good to know its as simple as running a Cat5E or Cat6 cable. Is there a maximum length? I'll be quite honest, for this first install I'm going to use store bought Ethernet cable - 50m/100m in length as needed. Perhaps I'll look into custom making mine down the road, but I envision enough of other problems with this first install than to deal with cable splicing too.

3a) "this will mean you can't have a pre-made plug but instead thread the cover on" - what do you mean by this? I thought I can just plug the cable into the camera? I was planning on attaching the cable to the camera, then feeding the entire length of cable into the pole (through a hole), then feed the plug into the pole as well and then seal the hole with some sort of a sealant. Is this not recommended? Actually, I guess it makes sense to have the plug stay in the base itself as it makes warranty replacements a lot easier. Clarification would be appreciated.

4) Thanks. Will go with NVR instead.

5) I think I'll go with the NVR instead - seems easier and simpler. I was planning on running an Ethernet cable from each camera all the way to the NVR. Is this not recommended? Just wondering. Is there a better way to do this?

6) Ah. Didn't even think about that. Just saw 720p and thought it would be good enough. Thanks, will look into some YouTube videos.

6b) Hmm. Good point. Yes, don't want to have to replace the whole system over a failed NVR. Additionally, I guess by just buying the items separately I know exactly what I'm doing. I'm assuming I can buy the NVR from AliExpress too? I'll buy the harddrive locally thought, don't know how it will hold up being mailed from China.

7) For such a set up, how many hours would you recommend? I was going to estimate 10 hours for the entire set up? Is that too much or too little?

Will look into the numbers.

9) Hmm. I guess I only really need to make sure the fake camera looks similar in appearance to the real one. Just gotta be good enough to fool a thief. Right?

10) Yes, I think thats the industry standard. But the client wants 24/7 monitoring to also go back and look at employee actions. I did a quick calc, and it seems like a 1TB harddrive would be more than sufficient for 24/7 recording for a week for two 3MP cameras. I'm assuming the NVR software is powerful enough to re-write over a harddrive?

11) I guess I should have mentioned this earlier, but forgot since its a nice-to-have but not required. Is there a NVR that can allow me to access the feeds remotely if needed. The client does not need this, but it would allow me to remote in and see the feeds in case of an issue, such as "The nightvision isn't good, can you come have a look"? Having the ability to remote in can let me figure out the problem before even going to site.

Thanks again for the detailed responses. Much appreciated. Seldom do people go out of their way and provide in-depth replies.

No prob...one can tell when I'm procrastinating doing laundry or something...lol

1) I do more bullets outdoors on poles. Probably because businesses do the pole thing and businesses like cams that scare off would-be-supervillians…er…vandals.

Weatherwise, the Hiks do great in the Arizona sun (and summer wet monsoon...holy crap that was a lot of wind, water, and lightning!) without a box around them. (some clients reported their NVR recording some sideways rain on their cams, but no camera problems )

Axis cams do great..they really do. 15+ years ago, they were the cam that lasted out in the weather.

Simply put, in the past 5+ years, the Chinese have learned out to do it and do it for way less money.

With any camera, you’re not charging cost+5% as you account for any electronic device having a failure rate (whether the camera’s fault or the cam-got-bumped-into-by-a-truck-but-you-can’t-prove-it), so the markup will be up there according to your business model. If you’re Nordstrom, Dillon Precision, or Bently, or , your markup is 138%+ and you do post-sale service with the biggest smile ever that the clients love. (ok, I don’t know about Bently…outta my pay grade…but Dillon’s return/service is tops). If your service estimate is somewhat below Nordstrom, then maybe 22% or 48%...it'll depend on your business model heavily.

2) For brackets on poles, I usually use one that will result in a flat panel to mount the camera on. Wiring for outdoors (in the Arizona sun) is most always through conduit or inside the pole…and for the few inches/feet from the cam for the cable to get into the conduit, I’ll use “liquid” or flex conduit. Yeah, the cam part is easier than the cable sometimes…heh.

3) POE max is typically about 100m. But a time or two at about 80m I’ve had to add a passive POE extender (for outdoors, an Owltech weather-resistant one and even then, seal it up better inside a box out of the water).

Making your own ends gets easier with practice...but I really spoil myself with a nicer (pricier) ratcheting crimper that cuts off the wires as I crimp. Not cheap though...$70 instead of $7, but cuts mistakes (and troubleshooting) way down.

3a) The Hikvision water-resistant plug cover…thread and pics here:

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=40612

It just doesn’t fit over the RJ45 plug…but as people said…tape works great too.

5a) If you have…say…several cameras grouped far away (and there’s electric power out there)…you can have that far-away-group wired to a POE switch (8-port, 16, etc.). Then run a single Ethernet cable back to your NVR saving you running a bunch of long range cables.

7) For my crews, if we’re wiring up…say…a Subway sandwich shop…we put on paper an hour per camera and an hour for the basic NVR setup. Depending on the crew, they either undercut it, or newbies go longer than that.

For high-up cams, expect longer. If you can’t use a hydraulic lift and you’re laddering up/down every 7 feet horizontally…then longer. If you have long cable runs, then longer. There’s a lot of customization to estimating. For devices you haven’t done much of (lock access, or whatever) figure longer.

10) If the client wants 24/7 continuous recording, then of course set it up for them. I usually explain the benefits of each and ask. For example, motion recording does record “actions”…heh. But if they want to spend the time to sift through 24/7 continuous recording to find an event, that’s totally up to them.

11) Most every NVR these days gives full remote access. View live, download recordings, set-up new user id’s, etc. About the only thing you can’t do remotely is if the NVR can’t connect to the internet.