serverguy

 

Agreed we have installed Ubiquiti, Fliudmesh and Ruckus. It's hard to beat Ubiquiti. We use Ruckus PTP links when we need more then 100MBps but Ubiquiti can now do 1.4Gbps over wireless for the same price

FluidMesh is good as well, have used that before.

If you need a gig probably better of going with an optical link if you've got something solid to mount it on?

IP / digital cctv is definitely the future, makes wireless very possible.

Should think analogue cctv will be dead in a few years time.

We do loads of wireless IP cameras, on most large external sites it is far cheaper than running cable.

 

But you have to be network engineer first and cctv installer second. Not the other way round.

 

What wireless gear do you us?

Mostly Ubiquiti stuff for simple hops.

Alvarion for more mission critical stuff.

For more unusual sites we use a variety of mesh gear.

We have tested a lot and the Ubiquiti gear always comes out well even against equipment costing 10x as much.

You can easily get 75 meg both ways out of a Ubiquti bridge up to 2 or 3km costing £50 in total. Can't run cat5 for anything like that.

You can do wireless for a few miles, just keep in mind that wireless must be line of site, no trees, walls, people in the way to be effective unless you go 900Mhz, then you can go miles without interference but so can other people so you have to make sure there's no 900Mhz in the frequency you pick that will interfere.

 

Then you buy wireless bridges, and the cheapest 900Mhz that I know of are Ubiquiti, they cost about $350 each. If you have line of sight they are way cheaper, maybe $80 each for 2.4 or 5.8Ghz. They then have a PoE adapter so you run A/C to the bridge, and the bridge PoE to the camera for connectivity and power.

 

Wireless is far from cheap and it's fairly complex to setup, but if you are putting the cameras where they can't be hardwired to a switch, this is the way to go.

 

As for cameras, if it's for live view only, consider getting a nice PTZ camera, then you can look around with the camera. Panasonic makes some affordable PTZ cameras like the bb-hcm581a and put it in an outdoor dome enclosure. One PTZ may replace a bunch of fixed cameras and with the wireless costs, it may save money in connection costs.

Why do you need 900Mhz? We have literally hundreds of wireless bridges out in the field running on 2.4Ghz or 5.8Ghz all operating trouble free. And price is a lot less than you suggest especially if buying in any quantity.

We do loads of wireless IP cameras, on most large external sites it is far cheaper than running cable.

But you have to be network engineer first and cctv installer second. Not the other way round.

SONY SNC-CH 120

Avigilon software

Have you any night shots from the CH-120?

I have a couple of these on order to test out

Wondering how they compare to the Axis P1344 or it's expensive brother the CH-140

Don't try and backhaul too many cameras to one access point at the base station - have multiple access points (say 5 cameras per AP) and sector / directional antennas.

Its better to have an over capacity network than one that is running at it's limit, and the Ubiquiti stuff is dirt cheap anyway compared to other wireless stuff.

I have deployed VideoIQ cameras and for what you want to do it will be a good fit. I have found that VideoIQ for preventing/deterring crime before it happens IF you have someone that is live monitoring the system. You can also setup 2-way auto and remote trigger I/O for triggering bells and sirens. Their analytics are self calibrating so you can deploy them fast and without hours of labor to configure the analytics.

Thanks

That is what I am thinking - camera sees person - sends alarm for farmer - farmer looks at ipad and sees pikey - farmer leans out window and shoots pikey (of course the last part is said tongue in cheek!)

Or farmer hears alarm - looks at ipad - sees ghost inspecting the camera - farmer goes back to sleep (hopefully there won't be too many of these)

We already put a speaker out with the camera and that works really well.

I am looking at some sort of live monitoring but the cost most of the monitoring centres want is prohibitive for an alarm that may only go off a handful of times a year.

Hi tom

Will try to answer your questions

I am very reluctant to install a cctv system that just shows some ghost stealing scrap and driving off in it. Numberplate capture is useless because the plate is stolen. CCTV like that is completely useless and a total waste of money - and this is what 95% of cctv systems provide.

 

 

 

it just depends on how its installed and the quality of the equipment used.

 

The figures aren't good for cctv Only 1 in 1000 crimes in UK that get recorded on a cctv camera get solved

 

And the fact that the police know full well which group of people who do all the thefts are anyway (gypsies...) and still fail to do anything about it whatsoever I would say for rural security just recording for playback after the crime is a bit of a chocolate fireguard. The only time the police are interested is if they can catch them in the act.

 

So I have come across the VideoIQ stuff. Considering that the farms will be very (read VERY) low traffic areas, and the only humans likely to visit will be people who should not be there, how many false alarms am I going to get?

 

 

 

you can get DVRs/NVRs that will do just the same and on a farm you will get some bad alarms.

 

I was under the impression the VideoIQ stuff was the best of the bunch when it came to analytics especially at a price point - I could be wrong however?

 

I also like the idea of the VideoIQ cameras because of the 'edge' recording - having all the recording done on a central NVR would mean lots of traffic on the network all the time. I much prefer the idea of edge recording and the network only being used when it is sending an alarm or archiving.

 

the logistics of streaming lots of IP cameras back to a central DVR over a wireless connection is not easy.

 

if you are looking at IP then no need for a DVR but you are looking at some good money to build a good wireless network .

 

Surely if the camera does not have onboard storage there is going to have to be a storage box of some sort somewhere to record.

 

We install wifi networks in awkward places / build temporary networks at public events / shows. The cost of wifi kit is peanuts compared to IP cameras! Of course it depends what you use, if you are using something like Ruckus or Fluidata its a lot more.

 

 

how many cameras are you looking at what is the size of your area to cover and the big one. what is your budget.

Not massive areas. A typical example would be enormous shed (100 x 50 metres) with a 20 x 50 metre office / workshop opposite it with a 30m concrete area between them where 99% of the action is and the access to workshop / office etc.

My thoughts would be to have a megapixel camera looking at this area and if it sniffs out a human send an email.

We have experimented with other ways of doing it and have had quite good success with infared beams to act as the alarm triggers and then a camera to have a look.

However, by the time you price

500 quid for a camera

250 quid for a box to record the camera

300 quid on infared beams

100 quid on networking kit

100 quid on a UPS

Lots of £££ time setting it all up

And take into account the inevitable problems of tractor parked in front of the beams / someone knocks the beams off with tractor bucket / recording software crashes etc etc

The idea of 1300 quid on a camera that 'just works' is quite appealing

Thanks

Hi all, been a while since I have been on here, see things have moved on a bit and IP cameras falling in price

I have a job to install some cameras at somewhat remote farms. Generally large areas of concrete surrounding a shed with some machinery parked about the place.

The original idea was just to install cctv that records 24/7 but I am reluctant to go down that route a) because it required lots of cameras to cover an outdoor area effectively, b) because 99% of the theft would occur at night and at night getting an image that would be useful in investigation is even more difficult and c) the logistics of streaming lots of IP cameras back to a central DVR over a wireless connection is not easy.

I am very reluctant to install a cctv system that just shows some ghost stealing scrap and driving off in it. Numberplate capture is useless because the plate is stolen. CCTV like that is completely useless and a total waste of money - and this is what 95% of cctv systems provide.

So I have come across the VideoIQ stuff. Considering that the farms will be very (read VERY) low traffic areas, and the only humans likely to visit will be people who should not be there, how many false alarms am I going to get?

My idea is a couple VideoIQ megapixel cameras giving an overview of the important areas of the farm and if it recognises a human fire off an email (or we are investigating remote monitoring).

We have toyed with PIR sensors and trip wires etc but they all add hassle and complexity. The idea of distributed storage with VideoIQ is very nice as they will work well with the mesh networks we install.

Secondly, by the time you buy decent IP camera + decent recording server + network / cable infrastructure + PIR / beam sensors the VideoIQ seem very attractive especially if they can work proactively.

I am going to puchase one to have a play with it but basically, how reliable / accurate is the detection (in favorable circumstances - basically zero traffic / floodlit) or would we just be plagued with false alarms every night?

Thanks for any insight.

Thanks for the comments. They are useful.

One other possibility, I actualyl have one of the new Axis P1344 cameras under my desk right now. I haven't even taken it out of the box yet.

It has a 1/4" CMOS sensor but it is a CS mount.

Is it possible to get a 50mm lens for this camera? Does it matter that it does not have a 1/3" sensor? The only lenses I can find are 1/3".

All I want this camera to do is pickup numberplates from 50m.

Sorry to start another thread but I think I am getting somewhere now. Thanks for all the replies I have had so far.

I have decided to use Arecont cameras. I like the range of cameras they have and they are also affordable for me in the UK.

First of all, how is there own software, AV 100? I don't mind if it is a pain to setup as long as it works reliably. I assume that you have to use their own software to use the on camera motion detection?

Secondly, how much better are their dual lens day/night cameras compared to the cameras with an IR cut filter? Any comparison shots?

And thirdly, is there any difference between the 1300DN and the 1310DN other than the size and that the compact one has less lens options? I want to put a 50mm lens on it.

Finally, one of the cameras will be watching a gate about 50 metres away as I have mentioned before.

What Arecont camera would you suggest for this job? There is limited light at the moment but I will probably install some floodlighting (white light).

I am thinking of a 2100DN with 50mm lens. Should be plenty good enough day time, not sure about night time?

Thanks for your responses. I will try to answer your questions in line below.

It's an easy design.

 

Do you only want to cover the width of the driveway or do you want a greater field of view for that camera and still have the ability to read license plates? Can this camera be located so that is not directly "headon" to cars that will drive up to the gate. If it cannot be then thats OK, just adds to what equipment is required to do the job day and night.

I want a camera that will pick up the numberplates at the gate (and maybe get some details if people get out of the car to unlock the gate. A greater field of view would be nicer but not necessary.

Yes it can be located not directly head on to the gate if that would be better. Maybe up to 20 degrees off if it is on the other corner of the house.

With the other Camera locations what field of views do you require? and what type of resolution do you want at what distances. ie: General coverage to be able to see if someone is within the field of view of the camera?. Be able to Identify items of clothing or sex of person? Or be able to clearly id a person? Depending on what level of detail you require you may also need more cameras.

The other views on the diagram are less relevent. Mainly general coverage, the farm is too big to try and have closeups of everything. But this is why I think megapixel cameras will be advantageous in this situation. I will start with just 2 cameras and gradually increase.

How do you plan on reticulating cable or camera signals between the two buildings? Whats the distance between the two buildings?

Both buildings with green ticks have dual gigabit fibre backhauls to the main network. The bulding opposite will have the same as well soon, the fibre is in but the building is still being converted. There is no problem with networking I plan to have the cameras on a separate VLAN to segregate the network and will either have a NVR with it's own storage or if I go for Mobotix cameras I will use some of the existing SAN (10TB available, no problem there).

How many days recording do you want? Will you only access the footage from the site or do you need to have remote access, if so is there internet access at the site and what speed is it?

Well we live in the middle of nowhere so the internet is not good, but we get about 30Mbps down and 3Mbps up over 6 bonded DSL lines. Hopefully soon we will either get a wireless link or dedicated fibre.

But it is mainly retrospective surveillance, if we have problem we want to be able to see who was there at the time and a general overview.

Can you jot down any other requirements you need from the system.

Would like the numberplate camera to be able to work day and night ideally and the other cameras to be good in low light (we have floodights but most only come on on motion). Some ambient light.

Cost effective but I am prepared to pay for Mobotix M12s or the like.

Will you get a licensed CCTV installer to carry out the work or will you attempt it yourself. I would strongly recommend that you get a professional CCTV company to assist and gather your own knowledge from this site so that you can communicate your design requirements with them.

No, I plan on doing it myself. I am very experiencing in the networking / computer field and doing outdoor electrical work. I like to do things properly.

I have had one security company come and visit but I was not impressed with his attitude, and I mentioned megapixel IP cameras to him and he said they were not ready for professional systems and he could get better quality from analogue cameras. Hmmm. And the company wanted a lot of money for the system (I could buy Mobotix M12s for the same price as his anlogue cameras installed).

Second guy would do IP cameras but I was still not impressed.

So with all that out the way, what cameras!

Do I go for a Mobotix system, but have trouble with night time numberplate recognition? And the cameras are expensive, especially if I just need some cheaper cameras to do less important areas. I think Mobotix cameras need to be used exclusively to get the best out of them and their ability.

Or do I go for Arecont cameras, slightly cheaper, similar specs but how is their night vision (especially on the dual lens ones, compared to Mobotix) and software such as Milestone?

I like the Mobotix cameras as they look less like traditional cameras. They are also easy to install with PoE. Not sure how the Arecont housigns are on this front.

I will buy the cameras in the USA as they are 40-50% cheaper and I am in the US almost weekly and if I'm not I have family in Chicago.

As the title, what IP camera do I need that will capture a license plate at 150ft?

It seems a relatively simple setup to me - long drive with farm at the end of it. Electric gate 150ft from house, with direct line of site from house to driveway, completely headon.

See my image here:

Gate is red line before junction in road, camera will be on house pointing straight down the road.

I want a camera that will be focused on the gateway area, that will capture numberplates. I don't need them automatically recognised, and it isn't mission critical. I want it to work at day and at night.

I am thinking of a Arecont AV3105DN with a 50mm lens on it.

What would your opinion be, or is what I want to do simply not possible.

Mobotix M12D-Sec with the L135 lens?

the problem with ip and looking at differant types is mix and match recording. 1 screen log on for mobotix then shut it down and then start axis window. you will need software to monitor all makes together. and this will also cost. i would look at a hybrid system that will take ip / mobotix/axis/sony/sanyo and not have more costs for licence. and you can also use standard cameras in the blind spots you are going to have. plus most dvrs come with auto ptz tracking. i have just pm you with live demos of mobotix ip cameras so you can see day and night quality.

My new plan is to use just Mobotix cameras. I like the very integrated system they have, and there cameras look more attractive. I also like the way the system is decentralised - computers and IT will move more and more this way in the future.

I will return the Axis camera I have on demo.

I want a PC based system, DVRs seem like old technology to me. I also think that by the time you buy a decent DVR that can do autotracking I could have just brought another 3MP camera.

As I said, I have two main aims. To monitor what comes in and out of the gate, and to get a general overview of the yard. There is no sense in having other close up cameras, because it would require so many of them, there are hundreds of way you could walk into the farm from any direction. But the road is the only easy way.

Thanks, will send you a PM now.

Thanks for the replies guys.

A few other questions..

I was thinking last night that the D12 Dual Dome cameras would be proably better for my setup and more discrete, and I believe these can work in the same way. And they are slightly cheaper, and I can change the lenses myself.

Second thing was, how likely do you think it is that a D12 with the 135 lens on it would be able to pick up car numberplates at 50 metres? Wout this be possible with bother colour and B&W lenses?

I was suggested it is possible by my dealer but am a little wary.

Is it possible to have a Mobotix M12D camera with a 1.3MP B&W lens and a 3MP Colour lens, with different focal lengths (tele on the B&W and 22mm on the Colour) and record from them both at the same time?

Or is it just one lens or the other?

Thanks

Thank you both for taking the time to read my post Hopefully some more people will come along when they have a chance.

I will try to address the points in turn. First of all tomcctv.

I have kind of accepted there are going to be blind spots. At the moment I have two main aims (after a bit more thinking) - to monitor the drive gateway and a general view of the house / yard from the building at the top of the picture. In the future I can add more cameras.

The only realistic way into the farm is up the road. We are surrounded by fields, and fields, and more fields. It will be impossible to monitor all possible entrances unless I had 50 cameras which I don't want. I will put the cameras as high as possible too keep them out of reach but make sure I am still getting useful pictures. They can all be 10 - 15m off the ground easily.

I have thought about PTZ cameras but it is a complication I don't really want, and I feel without an operator they will be pointing the wrong way when you need them. Personally, I feel that megapixel cameras covering a wider area are more useful, and the digitally PTZ the video later. If I had 5 times my budget, I would buy megapixel PTZs that could do autotracking and install sensors everywhere I actually ready have groudn probes that detect movement on the driveway, I will proably tie these into the cameras.

ilk:

Yes I have considered that the poles aren't actually mine. And it would be a last resort to put the camera on one. However, the pole is only servicing are house - it is a branch off the main line that goes up the road. I also know the BT engineers quite well - it probabyl wouldn't be too much of a problem in reality.

Thanks anyway.

Anyway - I now have some new plans

I really want a camera focused in on the driveway gate - but I really don't want a camera right above the gateway. So I need some sort of zoomy lens camera.

I also am really impressed by the Mobotixs system. It just seems really integrated, camera does all the work - saves to NAS, local cache if network is down, no licensing fees etc. I also prefer the look of the cameras to the hulking great thing I have on demo at the moment (Axis box cam in big white housing).

What I intend on doing, is to get: (if it is possible to record from both lenses at the same time)

1 x Mobotix MX-M12D-SEC-D22N135

1 x Mobotix MX-M12D-SEC-D22N22

With this new plan, one camera will be mounted on the house facing down the driveway. The 135 lens will be focused right in on the gateway. I will use the B&W sensor for this.

The 22mm lens will provide a much wider view of the whole front of house area, the drive and also a side view of the car as it comes past the house after turning left after the gate. It won't be much use at night - but then again the main aim of this camera is to grab numberplates.

The second Mobotix camera will be mounted on the other building connected to the network, and will provide a view of the yard / house / bit of everything. Then in the future a few more can cover more of the property.

I have assumed one thing and that is that you can record from both lenses on the Mobotics at the same time. If this is not possible, then the driveway camera will be less versatile but still usefull.

I have realised that the pricing is not soo bad on the Mobotics as I don't have to buy any expensive software or hardware to record them.

Now I have a question:

Will a Mobotix M12 be able to pick up a license plate at 50 metres with a L135 lens?

Of course, I will have a Mobotix camera on demo before I actually buy any.

Thanks

Hi all

Been reading on this site a lot and it is a fantastic resource.

I am a CCTV novice but experienced with networking computers etc so decided a IP based solution would be best and I want to be right up to date. I also want good quality images and am prepared to pay within reason!

Firstly a bit of background. Farm in the middle of nowhere in deepest darkest UK. Would like some CCTV to keep an eye on things, will not be actively monitored by a human.

Main purpose will be to a) general surveilance, see who comes and goes b) to hopefully identifiy faces and numberplates.

I have ordered a which I have basically on demo. I have never really done anything with CCTV before so I thought I would find out what sort of picture you get.

Now please see this little drawing I prepared earlier.... (click to enlarge)

You can see we have a long drive with a ring road going aroudn the house, then going back to the yard. This photo was a while ago (in fact years and years ago) so I have had to edit it to bring it up to date.

The red line by the Y-branch is an electric gate that opens as soon as you go near it - keeps animals in and locks at night.

The pink dots are telegraph poles - possible camera locations but I'd rather mount them more discretely.

Blue line shows distance from gate to house for idea of scale. 50 metres.

Green ticks shows buildings with access to the main network, in fact those two buildings have a fibre link. The one in the middle between the two will have a fibre link to it as well next year as it is being converted into two cottages. Wifi is available everywhere and I can dig trenches...

The yellow bars are possible camera locations, with the little lines being the field of view. The red lines are alternate - maybe much more focused in on the driveway.

The (very small) dotty line in front of the electric gate, is another gate which could be closed. At the moment traffic can go either way, but it could be forced to all go left at the branch. We quite often do that for a bit more privacy at the front of the house anyway.

Ok now for my questions:

• I have chosen an Axis P1344 camera with the standard lens as mentioned above for now. Do you think these are appropriate for the setting? One of the caveats is we don't want lots of cameras around the place - it is not a prison! I hope that with megapixel cameras we can have less of them coverign a bigger area. I plan to have no more than 4 -6 cameras, and to start with probably 1 or 2. The ones looking away from the road I will probably buy at a later date.
   
  
• Secondly lenses. I get a big confused with lenses. Sure I know how to work out focal length and that stuff (or I can plug it into a calculator )
  But should I be looking at wider angle lenses, or should I be looking at narrower lenses and focus less on the general view and more on individual areas.
   
  Reason I ask is I would like to be able to pick up numberplates and have enough detail to actually be of any use. Woudl you expect a camera such as this to be able to read a numberplates from any of the locations I have, from say 20 metres away? How high should I be mounting the camera? I guess I will answer most of this myself tomorrow when I get my first camera on demo.
   
  
• Thirdly, a camera looking directly at the gate? Would you plonk a camera on the telegraph pole by the gate to record people when they are wating for the gate to open and catch their numberplate? Or would the camera at the end of the top road be able to catch them? Would it have to be focused right in as it is in red or would a wider view still catch it? It seems a bit of a waste of a camera just at the gate but then maybe it would be worthwhile. Would you just use a VGA quality camera in this situation, or would a megapixel be worth it (££££)

I have lots of other questions, but if someone could have a read through this and say if I was on the right track I would be extremely grateful

Please also tell me if I am doing it completely wrong / suggest better places for the cameras. Or indeed if my camera choice is crap - but I believe it is a new model and for the price it seems very good.