Soundy

The problem with most common "hanging" PTZ designs is that they don't go "up" beyond the horizontal... which means when you invert them, they won't go "down" beyond horizontal. down_under has the right idea, I think - this is the aforementioned Esprit, which is along those lines:

No local storage, just remote viewing? What resolution are these cameras? We talking VGA, or megapixel? It shouldn't take a whole lot, really... the heavy processing is all done at the camera, so all the computer needs to do is route the data accordingly. If you're not storing it locally, the reduces the hardware needs even more. I think pretty much universally, you'll get the answer "H.264". The only other concern I'd have is, how many users are you going to have viewing this remotely? Remember that every incoming connection will need its own bandwidth, and the more people you have trying to view it, the slower it will get for all of them. If you're doing this over a standard residential broadband connection, which usually has very limited upstream speed, and you'll have a number of remote viewers, you might want to consider the use of a media-streaming service as well - then your system only needs to push out a single feed to the service, and they provide the big pipe to the users.

Anyone know of a manual-iris, fixed 2.8mm, C/CS-mount, 1/2" megapixel lens... that's better than f/1.4? Preferably f/1? Even f/1.2 would be an improvement...

Thanks, I'll give those a look! The IQs don't have iris drivers, so it'll have to be manual-iris lenses all around.

Just because they are able to set up an IP camera, doesnt mean the video surveillance application is being done right. As to learning "IP", a 5 year old can do that these days. So what I am trying to work out at the moment is can you setup two Vlans on one switch that are connected together without a router then use IGMP policies to filter out specific multicast groups. This is an option to the easier task of filtering ports via a firewall or bridge. While I can make this work is it in the design specs of IGMP V3 and VLAN 802.1p/q Or is there a chance that if I deploy this it will fail if we introduce new switches at some stage in the future. Also how difficult will this become to manage and will Dynamic vlan port allocation become an issue. Has anyone got a list of switches that don't default to IGMP and treat multicasts as broadcasts by default? Does anyone know the answer to these? Damn, boy! I understand what most of that stuff IS, but how it all works is still beyond my scope I'd love to learn all that stuff, but nothing we've done thus far is anywhere near that complex, so I don't think I could make a business case for the cost of training. As noted elsewhere, most of our larger IP or hybrid installs so far, we've just set up a dedicated LAN for the cameras, NVR and NAS. The one exception was the latest job for a gas station, and in that case, their corporate IT guys allocated partitioned ports on their switch for us - they pre-configured the thing and sent it to their installer along with a list of which ports we were to use. Far as I can tell, our partition is completely isolated from their network - they didn't even give a range of IPs to use, just said to use whatever we normally use. Actually, I don't mind that type of setup, either - as long as my wiring is good, my responsibility ends at the patchbay. If the switch isn't set up right, that's not my problem Worst case, I could just slap in a separate switch until they get it sorted out. The only downside is, they don't use PoE switches, so I still have to run power to the cameras. PITA!

1280x1024 is only 1.3MP. According to one handy calculator, 1.3MP @ 10fps for 14 days, with H.264 compression at "good" quality, will require about 160GB per camera (assuming 50% record activity and average scene complexity). You'll probably find dropping it down to 5fps is sufficient; remember, you're recording for security, not for making movies. IQEye is another good brand of megapixel camera you might look at - they have several models in the sub-$1000 range, right down to around the $500 range. They also sell cameras bundled with lenses, for one-stop shopping - they have a 4-10mm lens that's a good "generic" zoom range, as well as some 2.5-7mm models, and even a 1.6-3.5mm if you want to get ridiculously wide. Internet stability won't matter to the cameras, as long as they're on the same switch/router as the NVR. And no, no special card is required, other than maybe a 1Gbit network card to handle the traffic (assuming you have a gigabit switch or a router with gigabit ports, of course). For networking them all, I can highly recommend the Linksys SFE1000P switch - it has eight 10/100 ports with Power-over-Ethernet (so the cameras don't require a separate power run), as well as two gigabit ports to connect your NVR, and some NAS storage if need be. I've used several of these units now for exactly that purpose (anywhere from four to seven 1.3MP IQ511 cameras, a Vigil hybrid DVR, and 6.5TB of storage on a network RAID5 array) and they've been stellar performers. One of the extra ports can be used to connect to your home LAN (ie. your router) for remote access. I know this is all starting to sound really spendy and you're being budget-conscious, but the simple fact is, megapixel video is still on the higher end of the industry. The cameras have come down a LOT in price in the last couple years (the IQ cameras we use most have dropped to about a third of the price they were two years ago), but there's still not much overlap between the low end there, and the high end of analog cameras - the benefit is that you usually don't need as many of them. Storage is getting ridiculously cheap as well (you can get a terabyte drive for just over $100), but with megapixel, you still need a lot more of it. Consider that max capture resolution for NTSC analog will be around 720x480, and 1.3MP at 1280x1024 is *four times* the resolution, with the equivalent increase in storage requirements (assuming the same compression type). Go to 2, 3, 5MP and beyond, and, well... And when it comes to the networking, cheaping out will just lead to headaches, as low-end switches (like a $40 5-port 10/100 Belkin) won't handle the traffic very well of four+ cameras going at 10fps. The Linksys I mentioned retails for around $300 but is well worth it, based on my experience. Not trying to talk you out of your plans, mind you - just injecting a little realism, since you did mention budget: what you want to do will NOT be cheap. The one bright side is that you don't need a ridiculously powerful machine to handle all this, as the heavy processing is pretty much all done at the camera - all the NVR needs to do is file all the data away and facilitate looking it up later. For software, you can take a look at Vigil - they have a downloadable 30-day demo available (www.3xlogic.com), and if you should ever want to add analog cameras at a later date, it can also operate as a hybrid system (with supported capture cards).

U mean RG6 right ? Er, right... RG56 is generally for CB/ham radio use.

Are you saying that I "fear" the IT side? Far from it. As a matter of fact, quite the reverse is true. As the Network Administrator of our system, I know much more IT than the average CCTV installer. ... As I said, we can't take advantage of the casino's IT department due to regulations so we are on our own or have to hire outside integrators every time the system needs to be upgraded or expanded; an even more costly proposition. Fair enough... perhaps a broader, more accurate description would be "fearing what you can't control".

Actually, the screw-type connectors on #1 and #5 there are called "F-connectors" - F59 for RG59 cable (typically used for CATV) and F56 for RG56 (usually used for satellite). "Coax" is a bit of a broad term for connectors, as BNCs are most commonly used with coax cable as well. Technically, F, BNC and RCA are all coaxial connectors (along with a few other designs you won't likely come across in CCTV).

Hey, thanks for checking... actually, I was mistaken, the cameras ARE 1/3" (IQEye IQ-511)... I found Pentax's PDF lens chart, it was very handy.... I just went from being at a loss to think of names of CCTV lens manufacturers (came up with Tamron as well), to being completely overwhelmed with them once I found a good combination of Google search terms Biggest problem is, 99% of the hits are for resellers who don't have complete product or spec listings.

Don't get a whole lotta that at Home Depot here in .ca either. *shrug* I generally prefer my main suppliers too, but each of them has one outlet in the 2800 sq. km (1100 sq. mi.) metropolitan region that we cover... whereas I'm never more than 20 minutes from a handy Home Depot.

^That's right - there's no reason the cable can't live its entire lifespan in and among the insulation... but it can be a PITA to work with if you have to get back at it. Ease of future access is really the only reason for stringing it up nicely.

Just for accuracy, the ~3GB RAM limit is a function of running a 32-bit operating system, not NTFS. That's right the limit with NTFS was the 2TB partition size I believe. I think you're thinking of the 2GB limit for a single file. I have a 6.5TB NTFS partition on an 8x1TB RAID-5 array. Well, there's always the chance that the software won't work right on a 64-bit OS as well... or that there won't be drivers for the capture card. Better not to take the risk for this sort of application. No, I would imagine not. And there's always the outside chance that a RAID failure will kack the entire system, rather than just some video data. With the Vigils, there's typically a small (80GB these days) base drive with about a 10GB system partition (OS and software), and the rest allocated to an "exports" partition as well as "alternate" record space in case your data drive(s) become unavailable. Once built and running, the system partition is then imaged (DriveImage) to the included data drive (it can also be burned to DVD for safety). If your system drive fails then, you just pop a new one in and restore the image. Have you tried adding exceptions to AVG, for the video data drives, video file types, or anything else related to the NVR software? I have a home PVR built around SnapStream's BeyondTV software, and one of the first things they recommend to improve performance is to set exceptions in your antivirus for the video folders and video file types (*.AVI, *.MPG, *.WMV, etc.). I found it didn't have much effect for SDTV, but making those tweaks to Avast! Antivirus made a HUGE difference when recording HDTV. I haven't thought about exceptions. That's a great idea to try and I'll try to remote in this week when the customer is in the office in order to try this out. Funny, I've used SnapStream in the past. I really liked that piece of software! Maybe I'll get a NUUO rep to respond to this issue as well. They hopefully have some ideas for me also. Thanks Just imagine if AVG is running shield operations on all the writes to the video drive... *shudder*

Could you be a little more specific as to your needs? Size? Features? Price range? I've dealt with one PTZ that mounts on top of something rather than needing to hang from it, and that's a Pelco Esprit. Probably a little big for a "desktop" though...

Just for accuracy, the ~3GB RAM limit is a function of running a 32-bit operating system, not NTFS. I'm not familiar with the NUUO, but I have seen similar symptoms with Vigil DVRs. In their case, you have to allocate an amount of RAM to the MSSQL database that it stores all its search tables in... if the size of that database grows beyond the allocated memory, it has to swap it to disk, and that REALLY bogs down searches. The solution there is to allocate more RAM to the database (and add more to the system, if necessary). Of course, if you've JUST put this machine together, something like that SPECIFICALLY shouldn't be the case... but it's an avenue to look at: memory and resource allocation to certain processes? Have you tried adding exceptions to AVG, for the video data drives, video file types, or anything else related to the NVR software? I have a home PVR built around SnapStream's BeyondTV software, and one of the first things they recommend to improve performance is to set exceptions in your antivirus for the video folders and video file types (*.AVI, *.MPG, *.WMV, etc.). I found it didn't have much effect for SDTV, but making those tweaks to Avast! Antivirus made a HUGE difference when recording HDTV.

^That just proves the point: you don't understand the IT side of things, thus you fear it. If you needed to be an NTSC video engineer to use analog cameras, you'd fear them as well. Instead of fearing what you don't know - LEARN IT! Learn to take advantage of the DIFFERENT benefits it can provide, such as those as woodyads outlined above. One of our more recent large client acquisitions, we got because they wanted someone to put megapixel cameras in their new flagship store. Their current service provider at the time didn't deal with IP and didn't want to learn about it... so they lost that job, and eventually the whole account to us. One day you'll run into that casino client who WANTS a hybrid analog/IP system, and won't be talked out of it by your FUD... and you'll lose them to someone who'll give them what they want. Wouldn't it be better to TEACH YOURSELF what you need to know, to provide other customers what they want?

Some really great points there in your post! I think the quote above encapsulates a big reason why a lot of old-school CCTV guys are so against IP (read: are afraid of it): because they simply don't understand it, and we tend to fear what we don't understand. Just to explain a little more on this. With the advent of voice on IP I thought the skill set of the IT average person in larger organisations would expand into the Comms area. However IT in many large companies has gone backwards. While the knowledge of the architect has moved forward in his skill set, after commissioning the network support gets handed over to individuals who are blinded from why it works and the other devices it talks to. The architect moves on to the next job and the knowledge of how the system runs is lost. So when you say people in CCTV are "afraid of it" I don't blame them, good information about how to setup these network protocols not passed on though the larger companies and you just can't rely on your client's network engineers of smaller companies to know exactly the pitfalls of designing and running this stuff. My team doesn't fall under IT so we are not constrained to the IT kind of budget and outsourcing job division issues that normal IT departments are. All too true. IP cam manufacturers have made things relatively simple for non-IT folks to be able to install and configure the cameras, but I imagine it's still pretty scary... imagine if you had to be a video engineer to use analog cameras. I agree, it's nice to be in a situation where you can control the IT structure top-to-bottom, beginning-to-end. My previous IT job was like that - not that I was the one in control, but I was involved with all stages of putting it together. It's nice when you don't have to rely on guesswork at what your predecessor did.

Some really great points there in your post! I think the quote above encapsulates a big reason why a lot of old-school CCTV guys are so against IP (read: are afraid of it): because they simply don't understand it, and we tend to fear what we don't understand. Just to touch on a couple points... I'm a big fan of IP CCTV (yes, I understand the point that it's not technically "closed circuit" - I come from an IT background myself - but we'll stick with the conventional acronym for simplicity's sake), but I would argue that it's only "superior" in some circumstances. Analog still has its benefits in a lot of situations as well. Also, international access like you've got isn't limited to all-IP systems - a good hybrid DVR will give you the same sort of access to your analog AND IP cameras from anywhere in the world. We have one client who owns three pubs with liquor stores; we have a mix of existing and new analog cameras on all three sites, and added megapixel IP cameras on two of them. All are using analog/IP hybrid Vigil DVRs; he logs in using the Vigil Client on his laptop from all over the world to check on his properties (in fact, I had to chastise him once when he was doing it from Hawaii - "Dude, turn the laptop off and go out on the beach!") I suppose technically this is all thanks to IP technology, even with only analog cameras on-site, but the point is, analog CCTV itself is far from obsolete. I have to agree there. Fact is, for a very large percentage of our (the surveillance industry in general) customer base, cost is still a major factor, and a big part of reducing cost of maintaining existing systems. Case in point: we service one of Canada's largest oil companies, and we actually still have a few gas stations that are running on multiplexors and time-lapse VHS VCRs. As muxes and VCRs died, they'd spec replacement units rather than upgrade to DVRs... because even at $600+ for a new time-lapse VCR (plus the cost of replacing 31 tapes during annual maintenance), it was still cheaper than the $5000 or so for their corporate-spec DVRs (also Vigils). It's only the year or so that we've been literally forced to upgrade them (or rather, they've been forced to let us upgrade them)... because nobody's making time-lapse VCRs anymore. In fact, nobody has for a couple of years - the only thing that kept us going with those was the stock left in the supply channel... but now that's dried up, customers with failing VCRs have no choice but to replace them with DVRs (the things just aren't worth repairing, even if you CAN find parts). So no, you won't see analog CCTV or DVRs go away for a long, long time... as long as it's still cost-effective to produce, sell, and maintain, people will keep using it, and there will still be a market for it.

The 12V connector shown on the camera in the picture above is a BNC connector like the RG6 BNC except smaller? Nope, it's one of these:

Is that input for the standard or typical BNC connected camera? Yup!

Never had a problem with station wire and rain. Most 12VDC cameras I've used (especially the cheaper consumer-grade ones) come with their own "wall-wart" adapter - I'll just snip the wire on that, splice the adapter at one end and the connector at the camera end. If it's outdoor, I'll just put a little blob of dielectric grease (often sold for use on battery terminals to prevent corrosion) into the crimp connectors, a bit on the inside of the BNC, and then wrap everything tightly in electrical tape.

If you cut that cable open (not recommended), you'll find probably at least five wires in there - a pair for power, a pair for audio, and a spiral-shield-wrapped "mini-coax" for video. The spiral shield may also double as ground for audio and/or power, or the audio may be a coaxial pair as well - there are as many variations on the theme as there are brands, but the basic concept is the same: multiple conductors inside the one sheath. Correct (technically, an additional "power" wire for every camera, as 24VAC is common as well for professional gear). At the risk of confusing the issue, there ARE systems than run power over the coax, but they're relatively rare. Correct. Anything with sufficient wire gauge. Usually 18/2 or better (like speaker wire). We typically use what's called "station wire", which is four conductors - usually red, black, green, and white or yellow, like the old phone wire. We'll usually double-up pairs for better capacity (red+yellow twisted together for +, green and black for ground). That leaves you the ability to split off a pair in future for other purposes (audio, PTZ control, etc.). Since we do a lot of intercom work that requires station wire, it also means we don't have to carry two different types of wire around. It can, although I've found strapping them together along the length usually creates a bigger headache than not. The other option is what's known as "siamese cable", that has the separate coax and 18/2 wire connected together over their entire length by a thin "web". A lot of people here are big on it... I've found it handy in some instances and a PITA in others. No. You need either separate "wall wart" style transformers, or a central 12V power supply, like this: http://www.altronix.com/index.php?pid=2&model_num=ALTV1224DC The other option for cabling is to use multi-conductor twisted-pair wire, like Cat-3 or Cat-5, along with video baluns, devices that "balance" the video signal for transmission over non-shielded wiring. The extra pairs allow you to run video, power, audio, and/or control signals over a single cable. It also tends to be a more expensive proposition up-front, when you add in the cost of the baluns, but it can be more effective in some installations. Probably not a feasible option in this case, I'm throwing it in just in the sake of completeness. (Actually, I've run video AND power over a single piece of station wire as well - it's not the ideal solution, but it's nice to have the capability for those really wacky situations).

How possible is it to relocate these machines? I often find an electrical or phone room, or even elevator mechanical room, is a good location - they tend to stay cool, relatively dust-free, and are inherently secure, thus reducing the need for a lock box. In locations like these, even if a lock box is still needed, you've reduced the need for cooling and dust-blocking.

It's possibly but not likely. The customers location is in a congested area with historical buildings. There is a row of 3-4 large townhouse style buildings where is main store is. The office building is not connected but I could probably lay a 15-20ft conduit over the building tops. I'll run it by him to see. Thanks for the idea Another possibility is, if both sites have broadband internet, you could use IP cameras or IP video servers at the remote building... GSS has been absolutely wonderful helping spec things out for all of my projects. I just don't know if they have the best prices as I've only dealt with them. Just for reference my cost is $54 for the day/night cameras and a standalone Linux based DVR is around $999. Sound right? Really hard to say. Ignoring for a moment the fact that I'm just the in-house geek and don't actually do the purchasing for our outfit, and the fact that I'm in Canada so prices will necessarily be different (probably higher here), there's such a wide range of equipment out there, it's impossible to compare "value" based on so little information. I've seen day/night bullet cams ranging from $20 to $300, and Linux-based DVRs probably anywhere in the $200-$3000 range. Stated specs are less meaningful than actual brand names, as build quality and reliability with these things are usually a bigger difference than pure specs. Not all domes require drop-ceiling. I've used numerous models that can be mounted to a wall - even a solid concrete or brick wall. Some include a back-box for the purpose, others don't require it... really depends on the design.

The system's manual should list the default username and password... as long as they haven't been changed, that's all you'll need. Have you tried the "JPEG" (M-JPEG?) export option? Maybe check with your legal counsel to see if overlapping the clips would be acceptable.