chesterfield

That sounds very much an issue to do with the contracts being sold to the end user by the integrator. If the end user wants to buy their own equipment then your install quote would reflect this, including the testing and visual inspection of every item before you fit it, with the customer being made aware of any faulty items during the testing phase. They would also know that the warranty you are providing is for the installation and management of the equipment. Any physical hardware faults are not covered. Its the same with any install only contract. You have to ask how an "unauthorized" seller is able to get hold of the products and sell them at the price they do? When the products leave the factory, they go to the wholesalers. They then get sold to the individual retailers. It is then up to the retailers whether they simply sell online, or they want to be in installer and only sell as part of installation. If somebody is able to sell these cameras for $200, and you are paying 50% more at $300 then that sounds like there are too many hops in a supply chain. The markup of $50 on a $300 item is another 16%. Is there any wonder why the customer is buying online when your price is 75% higher for the hardware? The way the customer could look at it (and the way it can be sold to the customer) is, if you are looking at 10 x $350 cameras for $3500, but you can get them online at $2000. Then you are effectively saving $1500. You would need an 80% failure rate of your $200 cameras to be in a position where you would have been better off paying $350 for each camera and having the warranty.

The issue is end users not being able to find the MSRP in the first place for some manufacturers. This to me is one of the major factors behind some installers switching to certain manufacturers. The customer cant find prices online, and the installer can then markup the cameras by a huge margin and screw over the customer. Why is it a problem that online stores are selling cameras at dealer price to end users? You just stated that yours is a technical & service related job. So you are competing for two different markets. You are providing the years of expertise and knowledge with the setup of the cameras you provide, and the online store is just supplying the goods.

Im not talking about the installation. Of course that will need to be quoted for. They may need fitting to a castle or a mobile home. Im guessing the OP of this thread was going to fit the equipment himself, otherwise he would have just got people to come out and quote for the whole job. What I am talking about is the price of the goods if somebody wants supply only. I don't want the cashier to come to my house and cook the meal Ive just bought. I just want the meal, Ill cook it myself thanks. As for some CCTV equipment you cant find the prices online. I actually have the full MRSP for the kit I am now interested in, so it will be fairly easy to spot the real reason for keeping these hidden from the consumer when the quotes come back

The prices in a supermarket are right there on the shelves, so thats hardly a good anaology to use. Have you ever bought tyres for a car? Did you invite a whole range of tyre fitters round to view your car and advise what tyre they think you should buy and then they give you a price. Or did you just ring up the local tyre shops and ask them to give you a price for the tyre you wanted? So, what is this guy with the £1000 budget going to do now? He will have to ring up a few different companies, have them come to the premises, spend maybe an hour each looking at the job, and producing a quote for it. Even if he is happy with the system for £1000, he may want to check he is paying the right price, so If he does that with only three suppliers, he has wasted at least 2 hours of his own time and an hour each of the two suppliers who wont get the business. Whereas if there was pricing made available to end users immediatley then its very easy for the customer to see a good price without having to waste other perfectly good installers time using them as a benchmark This also rids the market of cowboys who charge over inflated prices to make a quick buck out of the customer for crappy products. Meaning the rest of you installers who are professional get the business that they would have swallowed up. Dont see a problem with it myself. PS - coming back to the apple, I dont expect the retailers to sell at wholesale, I do know a little bit about business. I expect them to be close to the Suggested Retail Price. If customers are not aware of the retail price, then it allows cowboys to sell apples at $1 each to those who dont know anything about apples.

As someone currently reseraching/designing my own and first home cctv system, I do not have the knowledge that the installers and tradespeople here have, but I have learnt a few things over the last few weeks of reading this forum and a few pm discussions with people who are helping me. My neighbour has a cctv system which incorporates a PTZ for his domestic system, however having seen it, while it does 720 TVL, its only any good if its pointing in the right direction at the time imho. I thought I could do with a ptz to cover a large front area of my property - but as above, unless I employ someone to sit and watch it, continually zooming the ptz into whatever action is on the screen, then its only ever going to be used as a toy to look around the garden while Im at home. Looking at the multimegapixel cameras available, it is possible to mount one camera on the house monitoring almost the whole front garden (about half an acre), and the detail produced by that one camera will allow me to zoom into any area of interest AFTER the video has been recorded, I dont need to hope that my ptz is pointing in the right direction at the time. If the budget is small then, much as its not a nice thing to say, whatever measures you can take to make your business looks a less attractive target than your neighbours the better. I'd rather the criminals just walk on to the next target and never need to rely on a cctv system than have a great system that will provide great evidence and be attacked once a month. To monitor my house inside and out with a system capable of providing good evidence should I need it, Ive arrived at a budget of around £8k depending on the prices I can glean out of UK suppliers for the kit Im looking at.

Hi, Ive just signed up after spending what seems like an eternity researching cctv and am looking for the input of people on this forum who seem to have far more knowledge than myself. My head is now spinning with all the countless options and systems Ive seen discussed. Im in the UK and Im wanting to install a system for my home. Given the size of the property and planned extension, I believe a 16 camera system would be appropriate. I do not have any current system installed so I believe that "future proofing" and heading straight for an IP based system would be most appropriate. I have worked with IT for several years, so am not afraid of getting my hands dirty building a pc based NVR. I have looked at standalone systems from QNAP, which look fairly familiar as Ive been using one of their NAS solutions for media storage for some time. However the flexibility and future upgrade ability of a pc based system appeals to me. If I list my requirements it may help those with more knowledge than I offer their opinions on which recorder and camera route to go. From the recorder: Remote accessibility (web, Iphone, Android phone) email and sms alerts on alarms (I would like the ability to schedule when alarms should be sent, i.e. I dont want alerting to movement when Im at home) ideally be able to handle 1080p cameras, though there will probably only be one or two of these in the whole system. be able to permanently record at a set framerate, say 5 fps but when movement is detected, up the frame rate to realtime (25-30fps). able to control any PTZ cameras remotely. ideally ftp/email images of the detected movement to ensure some images are retained should any theives remove the CCTV box. From the cameras: good low light evel performance. We do not have a large ammount of external lighting, though we do have floodlights which activate in some areas, and are looking to expand the outdoor lighting. The rear of the property would still remain fairly dark with minimal lighting until the extension is built, so nightvision would be preferred for some cameras. Ideally 720p minimum camera resolution. I would like to have at least one PTZ to cover the front of the property, maybe with the ability to track motion (vehicles or people entering the property). I have read a lot of good opinions of Avigilon solutions and it seems that if I want to aim for a high end domestic solution, their software would not be a bad place to start. As for budget, Im not wanting to spend casino money on installing the system, but I'm also not under any illusion that the system will be fairly expensive. Considering the value of assets & vehicles in the home and garages that are being protected / having theives detered from, I would rather spend more on a good system that would actually be useful to police in the event of a break in. Thanks in advance for any opinions/help provided.

No the company is not in Chesterfield. Having just done a quick check of company accounts, the total net worth of this manufacturer is about 3 times that of Avigilon in the UK. They are by no means a small outfit. Admitedly Avigilon in Canada is quite large, but this friend owns a manufacturer of housings and assembles camera components to make cameras to order. Prison cell ones for example that have to be very strong, but designed in a way that they cant be used as a place to strap a noose. Weird but true I have looked at axis cameras (on the web) and thought they would do the job just fine. They are widely supported and looking at video quality they appear to be just the sort of thing I am looking for. Though it does amaze me that some people show off their 3mp cameras with a video on youtube recorded at 320 When Ive found actual resolution videos from the axis cameras they seem quite good. What I havent seen a lot of, and maybe somoene will know where I can find this, is night or low light footage from many cameras. Can anyone point me in the direction of a camera that has good day and night capability at at least 720p? The cameras for the garage would need to be good night vision as I doubt any theives would turn the lights on while rooting around in there.

It will... with a caveat: if the two modules are on separate legs of the phase (or worse, on separate phases), your speed will be severely reduced, and may not be enough for megapixel. Speed can also be affected by noise on the circuit, such as may be caused by heavy equipment or motors starting up. Thats why I was looking for advice on the solutions available, and posted some specifics of what I would like the system to do. Hopefully the more knowledgeable people on here would then be able to narrow down the options available so I could arrive at a solution. You could consider that in two ways. Either Im being lazy and getting other people to design me a good cctv system, or Im using resources of people with more knowledge than myself to make sure I dont make a mess of things. Luckily, the power to the outside is on the same leg of the same phase as a socket which can be used to connect to the network inside the house. However the gates power would be on the same leg, which could introduce noise. I wish to put lighting to the other side of the driveway in time, so if the homeplug idea doesnt work when the gates are installed, I shall just have to bring forward the lighting and lay a cat5 cable while Im at it. I didnt want to go with analogue cameras due to their resolution limitations and would prefer to go straight to IP. Maybe we can go about this another way... Hows about if I stuck a budget onto the specification from the first post. Say £4000 or roughly $6500. I dont expect 16 cameras for that, maybe 4 for now, with the ability to expand up to 16 just by adding cameras. A ptz would be nice, but I know thats asking a lot for the money. That could be added afterward. So what system would people build for that budget? Sorry if I appeared argumentative in earlier posts, I was annoyed at the lack of readily available pricing. Something which infuriates me. If websites dont have prices they dont get my business as I like to know what I want and where to et it from, thn get it done. The whole process of going from dealer to dealer asking for prices that should be printed on the shelf is just a concept I dont agree with.

Thanks for the in depth opinion on the other manufacturers. Ive played with the geovision software, and found it a little clunky if Im honest. I have read bits about milestone, exacq and vivotek and would like to see demos or have other peopls input on whether these systems would be appropriate. Do you have any opinoins on these three?

hi you can use cat5 with any system. the reason why i say a hybrid were as a home does not need the full extent of mp ip. like you dont need to spend the extra to view a door way but your front and back yards will stand good 3mp cameras. but it all depends on your budget. a hybrid will allow you to use most IP with no licence costs upto a total of 45mp and standard cameras Thanks tom (assume thats your name) I hadn't considered the use of the hybrid so as to use lower importance areas on analogue. I suppose I can upgrade the ip part of a hybrod system to use more cameras if necessary? the 45mp limit you speak of on a hybrid system, is that total MP? i.e. could I theoretically have 45 x 1mp cameras? If so, then 8 x 3mp cameras and a few low res ones would be fine.. Unfortunately the areas where I would use a low res camera have no cable to Here is another thought, how well would ip cameras work over homeplugs? I have power outlets right down near where the gates will be constructed, I could have a low res ip camera down there, connected to a homeplug, instead of running a cat5 cable all the way back to the house. Would that work? I guess the best way would be to get a camera, and start trying it out with various pieces of software/hardware and see how I get on? Yes thanks ak357. Im happy to leave Avigilon out for now given my thoughts on their pricing. Im happy to hear about other sugestions as per toms.

With all due respect I do have a little knowledge of what Im talking about. Yes Im annoyed I can't find prices on the web, as it will now do doubt eat into my working day making phone calls to resellers to be fobbed off with phony discounts off the MRSP. I have also (as stated) spent several years in IT prior to my now runing my own company. Ive built business networks, complete with enterprise sized email solutions,including the set-up of the software. Ive also played around with basic IP camera solutions such as the one that comes with my NAS (qnap), so Im well aware its not plug and play. I know full well that if I buy the kit and it doesn't do what I want, then the problem will reside between the keyboard and the seat. I will then have to begrudgingly pay for someone else to fix it, but Ill watch them do it and learn for next time myself. In response to Soundy, I agree, prices are sometimes difficult to find for top end home theatre stuff too, but I did find it and I did build it. Oh and for your information.. when I wanted a Ferrari, I didnt have to do a lot of digging. I was in another country at the time, browsing the internet. The price was right there online. I paid them a visit when I got back, looked the car over and wrote a cheque there and then. That car and the ones that have since come to accompany it is one of the reasons I want the 1080p camera in the garage. I also have a very good friend that is an owner of a large manufacturer of cameras & housings of security equipment in the UK, they also supply to retailers and not general public, so I also have a bit of an understanding of pricing in the market too. If you really think there isnt a HUGE margin in these devices then you are quite blinkered. Im prepared to pay what I feel is an acceptable ammount, and the prices of many manufacturers Ive found are fairly reasonable. Some however do seem to be pusing their luck on pricing though.

Id rather make use of the existing wiring of cat5e to several areas of the home, which is why I started looking at an IP system from the off. I dont really want to go down the route of installing analogue and then upgrading those to IP at a later date and making either a card or encoder redundant in the process. Id rather spend more up front and at least have the wiring and hardawre in place that can accept better cameras/software at a later date if I want. Quite why Avigilon are so secretive about their pricing is quite a mystery. Well, other than th fact they work off the premis that their resellers canoffer X off the MSRP. I can just imagine the resellers out on site making "calls to the boss" back in the office and negotiating a special deal, but only if the customer buys today. So Avigilon is not overpriced, but I'd have to start at the equivalent of $13,000 for a 16 camera setup - and if thats not including VAT in the UK then it would be $15,600. Whereas Ive just been told that at $4,600 its an old price. Sorry, thats not "getting what you pay for at all". Its overpriced, plain and simple. I've now come to the conclusion that given the pricing secrecy and resellers doing ther best to promote this at the top of their list, the margins are massive, which in todays climate I cant blame businesses for pushing, but as a consumer Ill pass. Im also noting that after asking a few times now, there are no other products put forward by resellers, so I assume the margins are that great in the Avigilon kit they have convinced resellers to push that at all costs at the expense of any other manufacturer. So, Im happy to leave Avigilon out of the picture for now, what other software / stand alone solutions would be recommended for the type of system Im wanting to build? Then Avigilon need to take it up with google and the reseller thats posted it.

Marketed for the residential market or not makes no difference to its value for money. It seems there is a lot more to do with marketing here than its actual value for money. Its a software solution for management of IP cameras. Its an advanced solution granted, but its not worth the money they are charging imho. Here are the MRSP prices Ive found: So my figures dont appear to be way off, unless the "partners" site I found this on was lying. The fact people arent allowed to post prices for the Avigilon stuff speaks volumes itself about just how they feel (know) the prices will be reacted to unless accompanied by a professional sales agent whos job it is to convince a company that it's worth the money. I can find prices for competitors solutions, and they seem to be a lot more realistic imho. There also seems to be a lot of "partners" now raving about Avigilon kit over everything else all of a sudden too. Call me a cynic, but that doesnt surprise me when its for a product that has very secretive pricing. I bet my assumption on the large margins for resellers and Avigilon are not way off the mark at all. As before, Im just after some advice/suggestions on software or stand alone solutions for a high end domestic/business grade solution for my home. My initial thoughts were that the Avigilon stuff sounded quite good from the reviews, but having seen the pricing for this kit Ive decided that the pricing is a joke, so am after other suggestions now. Both for the recording solution and the cameras.

Id just like costs tbh. But they are not made available. The fact that they aren't made available by "partners" either also suggests that there is either massive margin in the products and partners dont want to reveal their pricing to the competition for fear of being undercut, or they dont want to put consumers off with ridiculously high pricing imposed upon them by Avigilon. I was quite prepared for maybe up to a few hundred or even £1000 pounds for a decent sooftware solution, but the information I have found suggests that the MSRP for the software license for a 16 camera solution is around $4,600 which is almost £3000, and given that we usually pay well above US MRSP for most US goods in the UK, Ill bet its closer to £3500. Add VAT (our purchase tax iff you will) and that comes in at £4200, or around $6700 US. So counting Avigilon out due to being vastly overpriced, what other software / stand alone solutions would people recommend?

Trying to find pricing information on the Avigilon software is not easy Ive discovered. The fact that pricing is not readily available for this, seems to suggest that while Avigilon may be very good equipment/software the end consumer is being bent over and shafted in terms of price by Avigilon and the resellers. No offence to any resellers. While I dont mind spending several £K on a security system, and as a business owner I understand that profits have to be made, Im not into all this cloak and dagger behaviour over pricing of the Avigilon kit/software. What other software (or stand alone systems) would others reccomend for up to 16 cameras? (though I doubt I'd be starting with 16)

Yes I think 16mp cameras may be a bit excessive. I have put together this quick diagram of what the layout will look like once the extension is finished, and I would like to put some cameras indoors, particularly areas containing high value items - garage, cinema, living room and gym. I may also like discreet/hidden cameras in the nursery. Given the number of cameras indoors, Im assuming maybe a solution capable of supporting upto 16 cameras would cover it. Also in the digram below Ive forgotten about the floodlights to the rear, which activate once a person is within say 20 ft of the house. There are small external buildings to the northeast and south of the property which I would like covering too. hope this helps: