tesc_cctvpro

Thank you for your input. I'm a novice, do it yourself, try to do it right by take experienced people (those that seen it, did it before me) recommendation, sugestion, and make my own determination if that products will works for me. I valued these recommendation, helpful hints, from these people here, your recommendation as of right now did not help me a bit. Thanks.

Thanks I get that a lot ---- usually in those cases, we prefer the customer take others recommendations - I'm sorry for wasting your time.

I'm not gonna lie, my business partner doesn't want to invest a lot into a camera. We just want the camera to overlook a lighted hallway so we can see who is coming in / leaving. So I guess I am going to be stuck in the cheapo quality division.

You need the capability to observe who is coming in / leaving .

Are the people who enter normally known to you --- that is recognizable?

Or is the mere fact that someone is entering or leaving of significance?

Do you need to record who is coming in?

If you are displaying the video on a PC - is it the same PC you will run your normal day to day applications on or are you intending to provide a dedicated PC?

So once you notice someone entering or leaving --- what response does that solicit from you. Do you pay extra attention to who they are, do you check to see if they are carrying something out of the exit.

I would like to expand the statement a little:

Observe who is coming in or leaving --- you believe that is going to solve a problem? What is the problem that observing people entering or exiting is expected to solve?

Hmmm --- theres that issue, which keeps sticking out like a sore thumb now!

 

Works with existing Co-ax????

It will, if the existing coax is Belden 1694A or equivalent.

Probability scenario in South Africa ---- 1% - optimistically! But that's not the worst of it ---- this is just to operate at the lower end of a 2MP camera frequency (uncompressed) so anything higher than 2MP and......move to ip anyway??

Hmmm --- theres that issue, which keeps sticking out like a sore thumb now!

 

Works with existing Co-ax????

It will, if the existing coax is Belden 1694A or equivalent.

Probability scenario in South Africa ---- 1% - optimistically!

Ah, but you didn't specify "delivering HD video" initially - you asked, "what key issues are considered important for optimizing an HDip solution."

I agree - That's why I spent some time trying to narrow it down - given your feedback. Actually I would include the aspect of network configuration as a variable that would optimize delivery of HD.

That's actually not what an "IR lens" is. The proper term is "IR-corrected", also known as a "day/night lens". The idea is that IR light normally focuses slightly "shorter" than visible light (ie. will focus in front of the sensor, rather than ON it), which will cause a day/night camera to appear out-of-focus when it switches to night mode... so the lens is designed, via optics and/or coatings, to "correct" the IR and cause it to focus on the same plane as the visible light.

Exactly as i said ---- you put an IR lens on a camera to optimize night vision.

Because we established that something else was a more effective solution than CCTV and we sold it to them ----> Sometime a PIR operated paint pall gun could be more effective than a camera

 

 

so a company comes to you with a big budget for cctv and you sell them a paint ball gun.

 

so were is the protection in that. car damage / theft / identification / protection.

You are the funniest guy i have met in a long time ----- you did allow me a really good laugh though, and I would have liked to continue the discussion, but at 23.00 here it's getting a bit late, and my eye's are drooping !

I am printing out this really neat line and posting it up on my office wall:

So a company comes to you with a big budget for cctv and you sell them a paint ball gun

---------tomcctv - 2011

yes i think you are right. but thats only because you dont answer questions.

Perhaps because they are so far off the topic at the top of the thread!

have you ever used beams for alarm detection ?

Yes --- Once I stuck a battery operated wireless beam to my wall with prestic! Worked like a charm.

Some of our integrator partners have more than 35 years experience in alarm systems, beams and electrified fencing ------ it's not uncommon to find beams in many residential and business ceilings in South African premises - as we arguably have one of the highest crime rates in the world. Do you normally ask security people if they have ever used beams.?

do you agree no name equipment can cost more money to put right without warranty

Who wouldn't? - now that's one reason i don't answer such questions normally , because I have not recommended one no name product -- in fact i have recommended no product, so asking the question is frivolous!!!

We have had numerous customer with large budgets call us for proposals on cctv, and end up never installing a camera,

but this is just out of curiosity. why do they never install ???

OM-------> Because we established that something else was a more effective solution than CCTV and we sold it to them ----> Sometime a PIR operated paint pall gun could be more effective than a camera

Looking to build a hybrid system that has all the flexibility of GeoVision products on an open platform.

have a look at Netvision/ Linovision if your around the budget end of the market!

I'm in the process of putting together a residental system (mine) pc dvr (Geo-8 channels card) with 5 camera outdoor and 3 indoor. I'm having problem of selecting what camera to buy. I have been reading about the CNB but according to some people here (Rory and others), they not too much in favored with them. To quote " Im distancing myself from the CNB cameras now after my last job using them (other than maybe the dfl-20s), they just dont seem to have the quality. In fact they look gawd awful on some DVRs, while other cameras, even cheap no name ones, do a better job. They do have the low light capability that many others dont, but the daytime color images tend to be mostly bad." So if you guys can recommend some brand, model of camera (dome) in the same money ranges I would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thank you.

The only recommendation we ever do is to show our cameras , or actual video of our cameras. Ask for some sample footage in conditions similar to what you envisage, or for remote access to a system using the cameras. If you haven't seen the cameras performance before you buy it, don't buy it.

The problem with camera recommendations is that Perceptual Resolution is a very real issue. The guy that's making the recommendation may be suffering from a de-generative eye condition, or be color blind to some degree --- as i am (Technically color safe - not blind) - but i can assure you that in a game of snooker, i can't tell the difference between the red and the brown ball!!

Yeah -----> and going back to the drawing board to what was originally considered, beams --- gives away that the actual performance requirements need to be properly defined first. The problem is that although something appears obvious at first glance, often times what is so glaringly obvious turns out not to be the best solution

 

 

to have alarm notification outside can be very unreliable at the best of times. to the point that it is switched off. optex beams is a good reliable option. unlike redwall pir (owned by optex) which some companies use are good for indoor open space or for switching lights on. and beams are cheaper than redwall in price.

 

We have had numerous customer with large budgets call us for proposals on cctv, and end up never installing a camera

 

why is this. did you not have the right equipment or did you talk your customer out of having cctv.

 

 

I have usually found that people who try to offer solutions before defining the performance requirements, are usually brand marketers.

 

how can recommending good quality warranted equipment be classed as brand marketering.

 

let just put a small system together by everything from corner store 4 cameras 1 dvr power monitor ...... 2 cameras go down after a month. who is going to pay the cost to put it right ???

I think we are talking in circles------

You haven't gotten a single thing i wrote about - so i just hope opposite got it, and spends a little more time defining actual operational requirements before settling on a solution or combinations of solutions.

Regarding the rest, we could continue all month talking over one another's heads --- it's not gonna get either of us anywhere!

From all reports, "Commissioned cost per video channel" should be "Highest"...

 

The ">2MP video" line is just silly - "Planned" is meaningless; "Compressed" for IP is misleading, as the proper answer is, "Yes, a long time ago."

 

"Comprehensive global interface standard" is ridiculously vague - IP cameras have a comprehensive global interface standard: TCP/IP. Ethernet. IEEE 802.x. Or if you're talking about physical interface: RJ-45.

At last the thread takes on a meaningful direction - actual views and opinions about the actual claims being made! - to be honest my interest in HDcctv had always been centered around the "upgrade an existing analog install scenario" . The potential for those who had already significantly invested in analog, to get a degree of HD without completely dumping their investment. A kind of transitory condition.

I had rarely considered it from a perspective of a new install, as I am quite happy with the direction and application of the current HD/MP ip cameras that we are using - within a closed dedicated lan scenario.

In South Africa, one would be hard pressed to find any co-axial installation that isn't based on RG59. In those instances where RG6 has been used - upgrades are likely to move to ip.

That all kind of leaves my interest in the HDcctv scenario in the dust, and the price of the recorders has compounded my recent shift away from those ideals.

But I would still like to understand the nature of the claims being made, and to verify or debunk them objectively!

From all reports, "Commissioned cost per video channel" should be "Highest"...

 

The ">2MP video" line is just silly - "Planned" is meaningless; "Compressed" for IP is misleading, as the proper answer is, "Yes, a long time ago."

 

"Comprehensive global interface standard" is ridiculously vague - IP cameras have a comprehensive global interface standard: TCP/IP. Ethernet. IEEE 802.x. Or if you're talking about physical interface: RJ-45.

At last the thread takes on a meaningful direction - actual views and opinions about the actual claims being made!

You don't even know yet for certain that this guys problem even must have CCTV - so what's the point of discussing cameras and technology!

 

 

 

i think comming onto forum with a $5k budget for an 8 camera system gives it away.

 

 

the biggest indicator of caution, is when they start popping brand names

 

 

thats the only reason i brought it up. only to say you get good warranty

 

My customers can get support 24 hours a day, and they do phone me out of bed on Sunday mornings, and they do have 3 year warranties --- but again, what in th world does this have to do with the posters issues????

 

does not count ... your not a manufactura. that is a service that you provide just like every company on here

Oh heavens :

Yeah -----> and going back to the drawing board to what was originally considered, beams --- gives away that the actual performance requirements need to be properly defined first. The problem is that although something appears obvious at first glance, often times what is so glaringly obvious turns out not to be the best solution.

We have had numerous customer with large budgets call us for proposals on cctv, and end up never installing a camera, on the other hand we have also had the reverse -

I can see why you raised the brand name issue - not why you accused me of promoting no name brand items though? So i will explain why i raised it ----- as an indicator to caution, because I have usually found that people who try to offer solutions before defining the performance requirements, are usually brand marketers.

Of course on the flip side many professionals when matching Technical Specifications that have been determined by performance requirements to a specific product, will always select reputable or proven brands.

Lol, I just dropped the last part in there for fun - because you asked me to show you such a camera, without any further qualification

Lets just narrow one aspect of Standardization to interconnectivity. If every camera would work with every dvr/nvr with basic ability. Im talking just a basic view and record capability. The different companies could use Features to make them stand apart.

 

 

 

the problem then will be ip would become a plug and play box system. ok in a way it is but that should just be for home use. just like the new dahua plug and play hybrid no switch or hub and poe from nvr/dvr

Many different manufacturers produce network switches, has that standardization hindered or accelerated the development and adoption of network technologies?

Yet that is a mute point - because firstly we are not discussing ip, plug and play or dahua hybrids. I am looking to variables that will optimize the delivery of HD Video.

As for "standardization" - that too, is a very broad topic. Most cameras support one of the same three standards, for example: M12, M13, and C/CS. So are we talking about standardization in form factor? Physical interface? Electrical interface? Data interface? Video format? Stream format? Communication format? Communication language? And so on and on and on...

If you apply mind to the areas of delivering HD video in which standardization would matter - it wouldn't be so broad!

standardization. whould that be a good thing. no not at all. why have every company working from the same page. will that include pattents on new tech

 

good, that's why we have chosen a supplier with a total solution that doesn't start and end with the camera - because the current status would require us to mix and match like a puzzle.

 

 

mix and match is a good thing with ip. are you telling me your supplier will do the VMS or NVR and cameras but not allow othe manufacture of cameras to use there product. he will have problems selling that.

Why do you feel that standardization in the way that HD is optimally delivered, will not be a good thing?

For instance ---- When it becomes an accepted standard that HD cameras should be fitted with HD lenses in order to optimally deliver and view HD video, is that a bad thing? How would this standard impact patents, hinder development and patents in HD cameras or lenses?

I never mentioned anything about my supplier and their VMS or NVR . The point is that currently many CMS/VMS do not support other manufacturers products. Some do many don't, so my choice of supplier avoids the situation of having to find different components that will work together. ONVIF should move us in that direction, and in the foreseeable future being tied in to a single manufacturer will not be crucial.

I get the sense that you are way too interested in what i do and who i buy from,and my business methodology- to make an objective contribution- which i believe you surely could

Kind of a vague question... what part of it are you trying to optimize?

 

The parts that gave you problems in the past!

That always varies depending on the site and the job... although in general, the single biggest headache is actually running the cables.

 

What are the requirements (activity, ID, fast movement, etc.)? What are the potential problems with that particular site (site size, layout, lighting, potential for EMI, power stability, etc.)?

 

There is no particular site

That's the point: "optimizing" an installation depends on the specific installation and its needs. There is no one generic one-size-fits-all answer to this question.

 

In short things to avoid when doing Hdip --- because these things have bitten you before --- so experience says, make sure this aspect doesn't become a problem.

The only things that have really "bitten" me (and they were almost universally someone else's decisions, against my advice) are little things, like... using a non-MP lens on an MP camera, or a non-IR lens on a TDN camera... using "green" drives in a RAID array... not really "optimization" factors.

 

One response stated : Standardization -- good, that's why we have chosen a supplier with a total solution that doesn't start and end with the camera - because the current status would require us to mix and match like a puzzle.

I think by "standardization" he's more referring to the concept that camera and NVR manufacturers need to HAVE a standard that everyone can abide by, so that you don't have to even think about compatibility. Analog video, for example, has two: PAL and NTSC. As long as you get all your components with the right one for your area (usually easy enough unless you're buying from offshore fleaBay seller), you're guaranteed that the parts will work together.

 

But that's not really "optimization" either.

 

So I can say ----- Consider issues of compatibility between the hardware and software you select. that's one sort of response I was looking for.

That's more of a "pitfalls" question, not an "optimization" one. Compatibility actually falls more under "proper planning"... fortunately the DVR/NVR we use has excellent compatibility with just about every mainstream IP camera out there, so a cursory check of the compatibility list usually suffices there.

I could respond to so much of this by adopting a different definition of the term optimization, than what you have!

But I will just reproduce a sentence describing optimization problem solving: "seek values of the variables that lead to an optimal value of the function that is to be optimized"

In this sense, when you mention HD lens --- that is a variable that seeks to optimize the delivery of HD Video!

IR lens - now that's actually a variable that seeks to optimize vision at around 850nm light frequency - not HD, but I can see where it fits in.

You misinterpret, I am interested in values which optimize the delivery of HD video, not optimizing an installation. For instance in stead of mentioning cable laying issues - discusses the type and specification of cable that is optimal for the delivery of HD video.

I won't respond to each point - because it's obviously based on your perception as to the meaning of optimization!

Your statement is a misnomer - Nothing that doesn't have a name on it can possibly be called a "Brand".

 

 

 

point me out a good camera. with good tech and returns policy and 3 years warranty. post the spec

Once again the thread deviating too widely form the topic at hand ----- I was looking forward to additional questions from the original poster --- but i gather he won't be too eager after all of this.

What in the world -- does this have to do with the posted topic, with the help that the poster has requested!

There are so many good cameras, with good tech, with 3 years warranty . You don't even know yet for certain that this guys problem even must have CCTV - so what's the point of discussing cameras and technology!

By the way --- I have cameras that are good, My customers can get support 24 hours a day, and they do phone me out of bed on Sunday mornings, and they do have 3 year warranties --- but again, what in th world does this have to do with the posters issues????

 

A laugh-a-minute!

Hmmm --- theres that issue, which keeps sticking out like a sore thumb now!

Works with existing Co-ax????

Kind of a vague question... what part of it are you trying to optimize?

The parts that gave you problems in the past!

What are the requirements (activity, ID, fast movement, etc.)? What are the potential problems with that particular site (site size, layout, lighting, potential for EMI, power stability, etc.)?

There is no particular site

It's kind of like asking how to optimize a road... who are you optimizing for? Commuters, racers, truckers? What sort of road is it - multilane, single lane? Paved or gravel?

Too many variables, not enough specifics.

In short things to avoid when doing Hdip --- because these things have bitten you before --- so experience says, make sure this aspect doesn't become a problem.

One response stated : Standardization -- good, that's why we have chosen a supplier with a total solution that doesn't start and end with the camera - because the current status would require us to mix and match like a puzzle.

So I can say ----- Consider issues of compatibility between the hardware and software you select. that's one sort of response I was looking for.

I think the number one issue with HDIP or IP cameras in general is the need for standardization.

Thanks!

LOL --- What is a brand? and how does it get to be NO-Name

 

 

thats simple when it has no-name were can you get support or a good return policy.

 

no-name is a bin job if it fails. which is bad for the install company and bad for your customer.

Your statement is a misnomer - Nothing that doesn't have a name on it can possibly be called a "Brand".

I have seen too many people try to rubbish other brands under the pretext that it's no name Chinese Junk.

I can guarantee you there is a lot of branded junk being sold in the good old USA and London Town, and then there are quality products. The same is true in every location. There is tons of junk in China, but there are also powerful brands and technologies being patented in China and other countries outside the US/UK. There are brands more powerful than their US counterparts in sectors of the Chinese economy to which the western brands are still struggling to gain entrance.

Why divert these conversation with this emotional junk ------ Help the customer define their requirements, once that is done fit a product/brand/technology that meets the criteria. If your brand doesn't, install a brand that does--if yours does and it meets the budget, install it.

But don't put the solution out there before you have even defined the problem.

I have not even yet recommended one product/technology/brand to the above solution - because I haven't defined the requirements , yet you accuse me of marketing Chinese No name Junk!! Whats with that?

Given that the debate has run dry - is it safe to assume that the first two claims made on the HDcctv alliance website about the benefits of HDcctv vs IP are indeed valid.

 

You mean this? "HDcctv is the world's only electrical interface standard for HD surveillance video, providing 100% digital transmission of uncompressed HDTV signals over existing coax."

 

I'd say that's about the extent of it. Most of the rest is either marketing hyperbole, outright falsehoods, or just plain FUD.

 

Some of the stuff on their little comparison chart boils to the equivalent of listing "front driver's seat" as a feature on a new car.

 

thewireguys is right, you should look into some of the LinkedIn discussions, where some of the actual manufacturers are now chiming in... get a much clearer picture than the Alliance is presenting.

Yes --- I have been to that link, and will continue following those discussions.

Thank you for directing me in that direction.

Who is pushing no name chinese brands

 

 

80% of no name brands are from china

LOL --- What is a brand? and how does it get to be NO-Name

I suspect a lot of people use the term No Name brand --- for brands other than what they are selling!

Are you kidding me man? Guys that push no name products from China don't last long around here. They get NO support and products that NEVER do that the manufacture claims.

I test every single piece of gear BEFORE I begin to sell it to end users. You might wanna do a little research before you make claims like this.

By the time you buy the beams and run all the cables for control and power and get them installed VideoIQ will be cheaper and a better solution.

Who is pushing no name chinese brands here ---- surely they can't be serious?