IP megapix solution for Bar/restaurant low light?

[Nimrod 0]

“Any ideas on my limited set of brands? and around/under 500 each?”

 

This is why i almost never recommend IP megapixel cameras. They have poor low light performance. Only very good (more expensive) megapixel cameras should be considered, and compared to analog camera’s sensitivity they come in a very poor second place.

 

From your first post it sounds like your friend has more money than brains anyway. Changing out his old cameras because your megapixel looks better is not much of a reason to change. Tell him to make a list of exactly what it is he is not seeing now that he wants to see. Maybe he just needs to augment his current setup with a few more analog cameras, move the current ones around, or just change the field of view on current cameras. Another option is use a good megapixel camera or 2 in the more well lighted areas and fill in the darker areas with analog cameras.

[destro_23 0]

“Any ideas on my limited set of brands? and around/under 500 each?”

 

This is why i almost never recommend IP megapixel cameras. They have poor low light performance. Only very good (more expensive) megapixel cameras should be considered, and compared to analog camera’s sensitivity they come in a very poor second place.

 

From your first post it sounds like your friend has more money than brains anyway. Changing out his old cameras because your megapixel looks better is not much of a reason to change. Tell him to make a list of exactly what it is he is not seeing now that he wants to see. Maybe he just needs to augment his current setup with a few more analog cameras, move the current ones around, or just change the field of view on current cameras. Another option is use a good megapixel camera or 2 in the more well lighted areas and fill in the darker areas with analog cameras.

 

Thanks for reply.. his current cameras just aren't good ones at all.... i think they are 480tvl basic small domes... thats why when he saw mine he had to rub his eyes to the clarity... i told him ip/low light is hard to come by but thats why i'm asking around for some free info..

[Nimrod 0]

There is one top secret, low cost, IP megapixel camera that might have a prayer.

 

Arecont Vision AV1310DN

 

1.3MP, with 1/2 inch cmos sensor.

True day night.

Color: 0.1 Lux @ F1.4

B&W lux spec not given.

 

There is a guy on here that sells them at the lowest cost i have seen, his nick is voipmodo, and he has a nice web site. Usually this camera is sold without a lens so do not forget to add that in.

[destro_23 0]

There is one top secret, low cost, IP megapixel camera that might have a prayer.

 

Arecont Vision AV1310DN

 

1.3MP, with 1/2 inch cmos sensor.

True day night.

Color: 0.1 Lux @ F1.4

B&W lux spec not given.

 

There is a guy on here that sells them at the lowest cost i have seen, his nick is voipmodo, and he has a nice web site. Usually this camera is sold without a lens so do not forget to add that in.

 

 

lol thanks i'm actually looking at one on ebay right now... the 1/2" sensor is a nice touch.

[hardwired 0]

Would you be willing to accept a monochrome (B/W) image? If so, something like the Acti ACM-3511 dome with IR might be a reasonable choice, or adding IR to any megapixel camera equipped with a D/N cutfilter.

 

Megapixel cameras are naturally handicapped in low light, due to much smaller pixels on the same size imager. Megapixel camera pixels are usually a quarter of the size of standard resolution imagers, or smaller. (Imagine each window in your house being that much smaller, how much light would get in?)

[rory 0]

There is one top secret, low cost, IP megapixel camera that might have a prayer.

 

Arecont Vision AV1310DN

 

1.3MP, with 1/2 inch cmos sensor.

True day night.

Color: 0.1 Lux @ F1.4

B&W lux spec not given.

 

There is a guy on here that sells them at the lowest cost i have seen, his nick is voipmodo, and he has a nice web site. Usually this camera is sold without a lens so do not forget to add that in.

 

not the same camera, but just an example of analog and MP night time comparison

bw bullet vs Arecont AV5100M-DN (default settings)

Obviously the MP camera is higher res, im just comparing light sensitivity.

[thewireguys 3]

 

There is a guy on here that sells them at the lowest cost i have seen, his nick is voipmodo, and he has a nice web site. Usually this camera is sold without a lens so do not forget to add that in.

 

I would check with Arecont to make sure they will honor the warranty. Arecont is cracking down on online sales.

[thewireguys 3]

 

not the same camera, but just an example of analog and MP night time comparison

bw bullet vs Arecont AV5100M-DN (default settings)

Obviously the MP camera is higher res, im just comparing light sensitivity.

 

Rory how can you tell that one is higher res then the other one? Come on man PLEASE show the full res images!!

[destro_23 0]

I'll see if i can grab a current snapshot of the first camera he wants to convert... and we'll take it from there

[rory 0]

Rory how can you tell that one is higher res then the other one? Come on man PLEASE show the full res images!!

 

I got rid of that crappy Arecont camera a long time ago, it was useless for my app.

[thewireguys 3]

I don't care if you have the camera or not I just want you post the full res images.

[rory 0]

Why?

[Soundy 1]

Another option is use a good megapixel camera or 2 in the more well lighted areas and fill in the darker areas with analog cameras.

This would be my suggestion as well - use good low-light cams to capture general activity, use the high-res cams to help ID people where the light is better.

[Quantum 0]

You buy

You play

You learn

You post

and we read

+1000

Yeah, I'm going to pass on that. I am going to buy the Arecont 10 Mp, but I've asked and asked here about lenses, enclosure, etc, not even able to get the simplest information like whether it correctly switches from night-day. The absolute only information I have is what I have managed to dig up myself.

 

And yet I see that several here have installed many of this same camera... the only reason they do not respond is their commercial/mercenary intent. Attitudes like this lead to me making a bad mistake on the Mobotix M12, losing $hundreds. The purpose of a forum like this is to share information. Those like thewireguys are here only to -take- and -take-, like parasites, so I will do the same.

 

Now, in this I do not refer to Soundy, Sawbones, and a couple of others who actually share information, but those who have admitted installing this camera and have remained mute.

[thewireguys 3]

You buy

You play

You learn

You post

and we read

+1000

Yeah, I'm going to pass on that. I am going to buy the Arecont 10 Mp, but I've asked and asked here about lenses, enclosure, etc, not even able to get the simplest information like whether it correctly switches from night-day. The absolute only information I have is what I have managed to dig up myself.

 

And yet I see that several here have installed many of this same camera... the only reason they do not respond is their commercial/mercenary intent. Attitudes like this lead to me making a bad mistake on the Mobotix M12, losing $hundreds. The purpose of a forum like this is to share information. Those like thewireguys are here only to -take- and -take-, like parasites, so I will do the same.

 

Now, in this I do not refer to Soundy, Sawbones, and a couple of others who actually share information, but those who have admitted installing this camera and have remained mute.

 

 

Quantum your crazy I asked you 2 times what are you using the camera for and you have YET to answer it. I have no problems helping respectful people but you are not one of them. Maybe you should think about how you talk to people and maybe you would understand why no one is rushing you help you.

 

You did this in another tread. People tried to help you an then you started to get an attitude with everyone. Then you start saying the camera sucks because you don't know what your doing.

 

I can not (nor anyone else) recommend a camera, housing or lens without know what you going to use the camera for (which I asked you twice).

 

If your gonna continue to act like this I recommend you look for FREE help else where.

[Soundy 1]

I am going to buy the Arecont 10 Mp, but I've asked and asked here about lenses, enclosure, etc, not even able to get the simplest information like whether it correctly switches from night-day.

 

Unfortunately, thewireguys is correct, nobody can say for certain whether a certain camera will work "correctly" *in your situation* without knowing more about the situation. In this case, even knowing the situation, it may not be possible to say for sure whether it will work the way you want - I'm sure the camera does switch "correctly", but the threshold at which it switches may not be suitable for your purposes.

 

What I'm finding with the AV3155DNs, for example, is that the default light level at which they switch is higher than the standard lighting in many of our restaurant sites. Add the fact that in most of them, the decor is very dark, and we find many of them simply stay in B&W unless I substantially tweak the threshold.

 

Will a similar camera work for you? The best anyone can say is "maybe". If the lighting is a little better (it also depends on how it's laid out), if the fixtures and decor are lighter... it may be less of a problem. I find with the 3155s as well, the metering seems to be very center-weighted, so if the center area of the image is dark, it's more likely not the switch to color. That may not be true of the 10MP.

[Quantum 0]

OK, now I understand the day/night switch issue much more clearly, thanks Soundy. Shouldn't be an issue in my situation, as it'll be standard outdoor office building monitoring. (buildings in our portfolio)

 

Never asked for expertise... whether -what- camera would work "correctly" in my situations. Didn't ask for placement, the best model, resolution required for facial recognition, clarity, f/s at max rez (although that's what did Mobotix in), best camera for night performance or license plate recognition, or any other 'soft' factors.

 

Only asked specifics on hardware, like quality brand lens options for 90 degree FOV (as Arecont's are not well-regarded), and a compact IP67 enclosure, and my worry that there may be a firmware problem in night/day switch, which it now is clear there does not seem to be. I'll keep looking though, and I'm sure I'll find something.

[Soundy 1]

OK, now I understand the day/night switch issue much more clearly, thanks Soundy. Shouldn't be an issue in my situation, as it'll be standard outdoor office building monitoring. (buildings in our portfolio)

Most any D/N camera should do fine for that (or the HIKvisions I mentioned, if you want to stay in color the whole time).

 

Only asked specifics on hardware, like quality brand lens options for 90 degree FOV (as Arecont's are not well-regarded), and a compact IP67 enclosure, and my worry that there may be a firmware problem in night/day switch, which it now is clear there does not seem to be. I'll keep looking though, and I'm sure I'll find something.

 

Okay, unless I'm blind, I don't see any mention previously in the thread that specifies a 90-degree FOV. That changes things a bit, because you ideally need a lens around 3.2mm to get a 90-degree horizontal FOV on a 1/2" sensor. Finding a 1/2", megapixel, day/night (IR-corrected) lens *under 4mm* is tricky... and expensive. A basic 4-10mm, 1/2" megapixel D/N lens, like that included on the AV3155DN, will give you about 77 degrees horizontal FOV.

 

IQEye sells a 2.5-7mm megapixel lens, but it's not designed for day/night and only works properly with a 1/3" or smaller sensor (I've tried one on the Arecont, the tunnel effect is amazing).

 

There's no previous mention of IP67 as a requirement either - that changes things as well, because most outdoor vandal domes only do IP65 or IP66. IP66 means the camera must withstand "water projected in powerful jets (12.5mm nozzle) against the enclosure from any direction"... IP67 requires it to survive submersion in up to 1m of water. Is IP67 *really* necessary in this case? For a bar or restaurant interior, I would suspect not - even IP65 ("Water projected by a nozzle (6.3mm) against enclosure from any direction shall have no harmful effects") is probably more than sufficient.

 

See, this is why we ask more detailed questions: because of our expertise, we can think of things that you might not have, or explain why things you think you DO need, you really don't.

[Quantum 0]

Ya, I've been asking my questions scattered in other threads, tho never got valid responses. I'll study the lens question.

 

I take your HIKVision recommendation very seriously, although the highest rez they seem to have is 5Mp. Also I am a bit suspicious of the quality of Red Chinese devices. Seems like everyone has conveniently forgotten that this is Red China that we have blithely transferred our $trillions in technology and decades of research to, for free... what happened to all the Commie-haters? Oh yeah, they're unemployed because they misunderstood the meaning of 'Free Trade'.

 

In your experience does the HIK 5Mp actually do 8f/s @2560x1920? Arecont claims 6f/s @3648x2752, although Mobotix claims 10f/s @2048x1536 and I can tell you it barely makes 20% of that. This is for office building parking lots.

 

Sure I guess ip66 would be fine, although I was hoping for ip67. Most important is that it's almost as compact as the camera.

[thewireguys 3]

Ya, I've been asking my questions scattered in other threads, tho never got valid responses. I'll study the lens question.

 

I take your HIKVision recommendation very seriously, although the highest rez they seem to have is 5Mp. Also I am a bit suspicious of the quality of Red Chinese devices. Seems like everyone has conveniently forgotten that this is Red China that we have blithely transferred our $trillions in technology and decades of research to, for free... what happened to all the Commie-haters?

 

In your experience does the HIK 5Mp actually do 8f/s @2560x1920? Arecont claims 6f/s @3648x2752, although Mobotix claims 10f/s @2048x1536 and I can tell you it barely makes 20% of that. This is for office building parking lots.

 

Sure I guess ip66 would be fine, although I was hoping for ip67. Most important is that it's almost as compact as the camera.

 

Arecont 10MP will work very well for parking lots but when the 10MP switches to B/W mode it is not 10MP anymore it's about 2.5ish to get the best low light performance . Keep that in mind when your doing your PPF calculations. If I remember correctly you can keep the camera in 10MP mode at night but you will need LOTS of light. Also you have to option of 1080P mode.

 

I would use SPACECOM lenses but they are not cheap and they are big.

 

Housing well I would not put the Areconts in a small housing because they do get hot.

[Soundy 1]

I take your HIKVision recommendation very seriously, although the highest rez they seem to have is 5Mp.

 

One thing you have to remember (that I believe has been mentioned) is that the higher you go in resolution, the worse your low-light performance. This is a simple matter of physics - for any given size of sensor, the more pixels you have, the smaller each pixel becomes, and the less light it can collect. So the next question becomes whether you REALLY need 5MP.

 

As with the lens issue, this is why we ask so many questions - because there are SO many different requirements and options out there, and despite what the big-box systems would like you to believe, there really isn't a one-size-fits-all solution.

 

In your experience does the HIK 5Mp actually do 8f/s @2560x1920? Arecont claims 6f/s @3648x2752, although Mobotix claims 10f/s @2048x1536 and I can tell you it barely makes 20% of that. This is for office building parking lots.

 

There are lots of factors involved in framerate besides just the camera, not the least of which are the capabilities of the NVR and network. Compression type and level will also play a factor, not just because of bandwidth required for the stream, but the amount of in-camera processing required (a higher level of compression MAY, depending on the codec and the scene and the amount of movement and various other factors, might have reduced framerate due to higher processing demands.... for example).

 

And again, the next question becomes, do you really NEED that high a framerate? Sure it's NICE... but is it NECESSARY?

 

Sure I guess ip66 would be fine, although I was hoping for ip67. Most important is that it's almost as compact as the camera.

 

Even for a parking lot, outdoor and exposed to direct weather, IP63 should be sufficient (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IP_Code#Liquids.2C_second_digit).

 

You're really limiting your options with over-ambitious requirements here...

[Soundy 1]

Of course, if you really want to go all-out with high res, low light, and uber-sharp optics, there's always...

 

http://www.avigilon.com/products/cameras-video/pro-ip/

 

11MP and 16MP on a full-frame 35mm sensor...

 

This bad boy will give you a nice wide angle and let in LOTS of light:

 

http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/consumer/products/cameras/ef_lens_lineup/ef_24mm_f_1_4l_ii_usm

Edited May 24, 2011 by Guest

[Quantum 0]

Hm, thanks wire. Understood that it switches at night; I expect the filter gets flipped and the array is put into some kind of different mode.

Seems like the Arecont could be bolted to an aluminum housing with thermal consideration, and have the housing serve as heatsink.

 

Soundy looking for resolution first, and second a reasonable framerate of more than 4/s so as to not miss anything. Do I -need- the highest rez? -Need- is a fact, -want- is an emotion, and I won't confuse the two. I -want- a higher rez for the possibility that a theft could be solved by making out a license plate and actually proving a face. Whether it's 50' away, or 500', more rez is better, and depth of field is nice.

 

 

This bad boy will give you a nice wide angle and let in LOTS of light:

 

http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/consumer/products/cameras/ef_lens_lineup/ef_24mm_f_1_4l_ii_usm

Yeah, that lens costs twice as much as the camera, LOL.

 

(You're keeping me in suspense on that first link...)

[Soundy 1]

Hmmm, pasted the wrong link. WTF? Here it is: http://www.avigilon.com/products/cameras-video/pro-ip/

 

I believe that lens would be about 1/5 the total cost of this lens/camera system...

 

Something else to consider with a parking lot is that you're generally going to want your camera at a fairly high vantage point to get maximum area coverage... at that point, you're far less likely to get plates or faces just because of the angle. Add the fact that a moving car will be moving across the frame, making any motion blur caused by a slow shutter even worse.

 

Depth of field is going to be a trade-off as well, because you'll get that with a smaller lens aperture... which then reduces the light. To compensate, you either need to boost the signal electronically - creating more noise - or reduce the shutter - creating motion blur.

 

What I would suggest (and most here will as well) is to use a lower-resolution, better-low-light-gathering camera or cameras for parking lot overview, and then have a dedicated camera for capturing plates, mounted at a low level on a "choke point" (such as a gate or driveway). This does not necessarily need to be a megapixel camera, if the choke area is tight enough, and the more straight-on you are to the direction of movement (so the plate is moving in-line with the camera instead of across the frame), the less you have to worry about motion blur. There are cameras specially designed for license plate capture that would do well here.

[thewireguys 3]

Of course, if you really want to go all-out with high res, low light, and uber-sharp optics, there's always...

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IP_Code#Liquids.2C_second_digit

 

11MP and 16MP on a full-frame 35mm sensor...

 

This bad boy will give you a nice wide angle and let in LOTS of light:

 

http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/consumer/products/cameras/ef_lens_lineup/ef_24mm_f_1_4l_ii_usm

 

He is talking about the Avigilon 11MP and 16MP cameras. Which are amazing FYI

 

http://www.avigilon.com/products/datasheets/ENG/HD-Pro-IP-Cameras.pdf

 

 

Also according to the spec sheet the 10MP Arecont will fit in this housing depending on the lens then you choose.

 

http://www.arecontvision.com/4inch-dome.html