New user here and stuck with a 16 cam CCTV upgrade.

[thefirstapex 0]

Hello everyone. I usually help with the setup and wiring of large business telephone systems and the likes, but have recently been asked by a client to update their current CCTV system. They have 16 cams setup all wired and everything, but they are really old black and white "DeltaVision OP-2000" box cams that he'd like upgraded to something with colour. They are all indoor cams in 100% working order covering the register, isles, entrance, and so on .. in his store. There is one more camera out in the back covering the loading docks. I climbed up a ladder and read "HUNI HTC 11336" off this outside dome camera.

 

Interface wise, it's an old standalone 16 dvr system hooked up to a VCR. I don't even think he's recording at all. He's just been watching from the front counter.

 

So that's the current situation .. here's where he'd like to be .. not too complex and controlled through a PC that I've already bought (Details later):

 

- Colour high res indoor cams to shoot down the isles (Or maybe I could use wide angle fish-eye lenses and watch from above. Better view, yeah?)

- Possibly a SINGLE 360* motorized cam for one spot? Not sure yet.

- 30fps with both recording AND live viewing

- Of course, the ability to watch from home over the internet

 

Basically, just good cams at 30FPS.

 

First off, this isn't a government business, or a bank, or anything extravagant like that .. so I would like to keep the cost somewhat low, but not crappy. I'm looking to spend betweek 100 and 200 or so for each cam.

 

So then, what cams would you guys suggest? (Indoor box cams, lenses, outdoor cams, etc.)

 

 

PC Based DVR system wise, so far, I've put together the following PC:

 

CPU: Intel Pentium Dual Core E2180 2.0GHz

MOTHERBOARD: Asus P5K Intel P35 Chipset

MEMORY: Kingston 1GB (512MB x 2) 667MHz DDR2

HARD DRIVE: Seagate SATA 500GB

PSU: Antec EarthWatts 500W

 

.. what DVR cards should I be looking into? I've had the toughest time figuring all this out. Every site I go to has different cards. It's hard to find two sites with the same stuff. About the only consistency with readily available cards I've had were with AverMedia cards. AverMedia cards are clearly labelled "AverMedia". It seems like all the various suppliers badge their own company label on the cards and market them as their own or something.

 

I'm mostly interested in what I GUESS are "ILDVR" cards with hardware compression. This is due to the better quality of image, and the general load it takes off the PC their running in (And hence, would increase the reliability). Am I wrong with my assumptions here? Would I be good with something cheaper? If so, what exactly? This is driving me crazy.

 

Will they be compatible with the PC I've built? Every shop I've called keeps mentioning "Intel P965 chipset!" "Intel P965 chipset!" "Intel P965 chipset!". This sounds both somewhat ridiculous and scary at the same time. Not because I've bought a newer Intel board, but because the older P965 boards are getting harder to find, and harder to find at a low price at that. There's like the Asus Commando for around $200 CDN .. but I tried to build the PC as new, cheap, and reliable as possible. All quality parts but without overpowering the system. (I know, It's probably overpowered as it is.)

 

For the time being, we're only going to be hooking up 8 cameras so I've been trying to find an 8CH 240FPS (rec & live) DVR card. This way, in the future, I can just add two more of these DVR cards to the motherboard to expand to 24CH if need be. So which DVR card is recommended in my situation? (As you guys can probably tell, I'm sort of going crazy reading and reading all over the net.

 

Also, (and finally) good quality surveillance software (Maybe even "hybrid" to support IP cams in the future if need be.

 

~

 

 

Setting up CCTV security is not my speciality, but I feel like I can set it up. I'm very computer literate for the PC side of things and am good with hardware. I usually try to find answers myself but have slowly come to realize there is more to this than I originally expected. So I've finally registered and posted my dilemma on this cctvforum site.

 

I hope someone can help me because I've been driving myself insane. I don't want to purchase the wrong hardware for the job and then find out there that it's not going to work.

 

So again:

 

- Relatively good wired indoor camera?

 

- Relatively good wired outdoor camera (Perhaps with auto night mode)?

 

- Good 8CH 240FPS (rec/live) DVR Card (expandable to 16CH .. AT LEAST)? An ILDVR 3000H4C8 or AverMedia NV7000H perhaps?

 

-Maybe better software than what comes with the DVR card perhaps with IP support?

ACTi Streaming Activator? And will I need some special licence for each camera or something for the software? Or will the one that comes with the DVR Card work without a hitch?

 

~

 

Really, that's about it. My story was long, but my questions are rather straightforward - I hope.

 

Hope to hear from someone asap because I'd like to purchase the card and at least 1 of the new cameras for setup and testing tomorrow at a local supplier. I'm planning on completing the upgrade in the following week or so.

 

Again, there isn't really a "budget" per-say .. but I'm trying to not go overboard here. This isn't a casino. Roughly $800 per DVR card and around 250 per camera MAX sounds about right if you want to talk about a "budget". (Obviously more for the motorized camera by the way).

 

I think that's about the most of my dilemma. Hopefully someone can shed at least a particle of light upon my rather dark situation.

 

Thanks a million for the help!!! I may just become a regular and bother everyone with my stupid questions with "too much info" in them.

 

Thanks again!

 

EDIT: Forgot to mention .. he'd like a nice big screen dropped from the ceiling in front of the register displaying the cameras live. I'm assuming showing a cycle of a 4-camera matrix is possible through the video card's S-Video out .. yeah? That's finally all!

[UMDRanger 0]

Welcome to the site.

 

I would advise against a top-down camera view for the most part.

 

Top-down, and the 3.6mm wide angles are great for small areas, and hidden cameras in stockrooms, or right over a single register to watch the cash. These wide angle cameras are also ok for hidden "concealment isles" where the shoplifters like to conceal the product. A hidden camera lets them feel comfortable in these isles. Problem is that the manager or whoever needs to be watching. And (check local laws) see certain steps in order to detain the individual for shoplifting.

 

Registers - I'd go with a camera offset, but able to see the cashier, the drawer, and the customer, as well as the product being scanned. Exact angle will depend on the register lane setup/layout. Sometimes, 2-3 registers per a camera are possible.

 

This is important because the store manager can prevent and investigate loss / shrink. He can have a clear picture of the customer (great for giving to police for check fraud) (I refer about $500-$1,000 in check fraud cases a month to the local PD, all based off video). The manager can challenge customers who claim "I didn't get my item", yet the video can show whether they did or not. And this angle allows the manager to monitor any cash shortages from theft by the cashier.

 

Isles - long shots are better IMO. You can see more isles. Use long shots for general isles, and closer shots on high risk merchandise. If a grocery store, I'd put a tight shot on the baby formula, diabetic test strips/checkers, smoking cessation, and meats... simply because the first 3 are high value targets for ORT (Organized Retail Theft) groups, and meats seem to be a higher theft item also. If a general store, well electronics/dvd/cd/jewelry, things of that nature. I'd use some dummy domes as a deterant in isles and areas where there are no cameras.

 

Entrance - if it is a narrow entrance, a 3.6mm camera mounted close to head level may work. Or a nice box camera with a good lense. I'd go with a box camera. Use this channeled area to get great face shots to match with theft and fraud cases, since those views are often wider and the face is small and harder to see. Also, you can see what they came in with, to help prevent against return fraud (off the floor refunds), and to see if the CD the guy just ripped open and put in his pants was his, or was the store's. Yes, I have seen people bring their own packaged CD into a store, and conceal it, just as a shoplifter would. Rare, but it happens.

 

For the motorized camera (PTZ), well that depends on the manager's preference. If he has a lot of cash shortages, I'd put it at the registers so he can monitor as many registers as possible, and be able to zoom in to any one he wants to watch. If he has a shoplifting problem, I'd place it in the best location to see as much of the store as possible. That way he can track where they go, and with what product, and rely on hidden cameras and isle cameras to see actions in those specific isles.

 

Not to hurt anyone's feelings. But in my 5 years retail loss prevention experience, and 1 year installing... installers (and corporate HQs) don't know jack about the best places for cameras. Everytime we get one installed, we have moved it within a day to a better angle, or better location.

 

I'd partner the store manager with a loss prevention guy from the area (check other retailers) if the store manager isn't up on CCTV. Just get the other guy's opinions, and let the manager decide. Even those of us in the field eval each other regularally, checking in to each other's stores, walking the floor, looking for cameras and concealment areas, and then providing feedback to our counterparts.

[thefirstapex 0]

Hey, thanks for the quick reply and all the helpful info. To be honest, I wasn't even thinking about perhaps reorganizing the stores camera layout in the way you mentioned (clear customer shots at entrance, etc ..) I've generally been concerning myself with updating the old cameras and going PC based instead of standalone.

 

The idea of having a top-down wide-angle over each of the isles was his idea thinking that the current one long shot down each isle will be ineffective when someone is facing the other way covering up what they are doing. The camera can only see their back. This is why he suggested a total top down view in the first place.

 

But you're saying to keep the long shots and go with top down in more important areas perhaps, yeah?

 

To give you a general picture of the store, it's an international imported food store. It has a number if isles and the store is generally filled in most places. In most places, two adults wouldn't be able to walk shoulder-to-shoulder.

 

So as a whole, the store doesn't really have an "open area" to get a big shot in. Actually, most of the store is hidden from the cashier and deli section. (The two areas usually fitted with employees.)

 

On top of consumer theft, he's also trying to keep an eye on the general helpers of the store as well (The people who load things in from the back for example). He's had to fire a couple of people in the past for loading two boxes into the store and one into their car.

 

The motorized camera, as you mentioned, is planned for the stock room. I do understand that a relatively good motorized camera does cost an arm and a leg. Correct me if I'm wrong, but just one of them costs over a grand to start. So this isn't 100% yet regarding this particular camera.

 

In general, I'm taking it box cams are of higher quality than domes. Is this a correct assumption?

 

Again, thanks for the help, my friend. I've been researching non-stop ever since I was put in charge of this. Looks like I still have a lot of work to do. I'd still like to know of any suggestions regarding cameras and DVR Cards with particular brands and model numbers.

 

So far, I've kind of finalized the DVR card to either the ILDVR 3000H4C8 or AverMedia NV7000H, as I mentioned in my original post. Are these good quality, reliable, easy to used for the costumer (Intuitive web interface)? I know the ILDVR cards can be stacked to have a total of 64 cameras per PC if you go with 4 x 16CH. I'm not going to need that many of course, but it's nice to know we can go above 16 if need be. With the AverMedia, it's 16CH max. May not be good enough for the future but it IS hybrid.

 

With hybrid systems, I assume you can add many more IP cameras to make MORE than 16 .. correct? So 16 CCTV cams max but more IP's if need be, yes?

 

That said, any other possible DVR card suggestions?

 

And for reliable good quality CCTV (box as well as dome) cameras around the 200 - 250 mark? (Inside and outdoor if possible)

 

Unfortunately/fortunately, I'm a perfectionist and I'd need a few months to be confident enough in my own decisions here. I'm hoping for find some standard good quality components to use and setup for my customer. Hopefully that's possible, but I know it almost always depends on the particular situation.

 

Again, thanks for the help and I really look forward to hearing more! Thanks!

[UMDRanger 0]

Yes, in my opinion, the side long shots are better. This is because you can see the customer/shoplifter's hands as they put them between shelves down the whole isle. A fisheye 3.6mm lense will only see what you would from the top, hands going into a shelf. Hard to tell what level shelf it was, or what the hands were doing.

 

I suggest a 24 VAC camera over a 12 VDC. I have had good luck with Samsung, American Dynamics, and Ganz brand cameras, both box style and domes. Just stay away from 3.6mm domes. For example, Ganz carries 4-12mm and 6-50mm lenses IIRC, and both of those provide very good pictures. But the American Dynamics 12vdc 3.6mm dome sucks IMO. If you do some searching here, you'll see a lot of professionals giving their opinions on the different brands and models.

 

I haven't used either of the two DVR cards you are looking at. I've got a Geovision card. But you can only put one card in a PC, and I think their largest card is a 16 cam.

 

A PTZ in the backroom is a good idea. Maybe some 3.6mm hidden cameras in the candy section. Dishonest employees often hit the candy.

[thefirstapex 0]

Fantastic, thanks for the models there. At first I thought you were being sarcastic about the candy section .. but you're probably right. I'd hit the candy section too! ha

 

Anyway, I'll have a look through the forums more getting ideas about good cameras and the likes.

 

Regarding the cards, yeah, I keep seeing "Geovision" pop up everywhere but as you mentioned, I believe I also see the one card per pc limit as well. I definitely need the option for MORE than 16 in the future. As I said, 8 to start off now, but as time passes, we'll eventually hook up the rest (Which will make 16 total) plus we may add more to the current 16. So again, more than 16 is a must.

 

For the time being, I popped into a local dealer in my area that we deal with and got some prices and brands they stock. They seem to be a rather loyal dealer of a brand of DVR Cards called "Viewgate" and have their product (and only their products) readily available at their location.

 

I was told I could put multiple cards into a single system given that they are all the exact same card. So I could have three 8ch cards to give a total of 24 channels. Sounds good. Or three 16ch cards for a total of 48 channels. Great.

 

Anyway, any info about Viewgate? They had a bunch of cams and systems up and running in the shop there and the Viewgate web interface looked intuitive and straight forward. All in all, it looks like what I will finally go for, but I'm not sure about compatibility.

 

Everywhere I look, everyone is mentioning these older Intel Chipset motherboards. So I just built this new and reliable system, only to find out the motherboard is "too new"?! Is this a joke? So am I suppose to return my Asus P5K Intel P35 motherboard and track down an older board somewhere? And also, will my nVidia video card somehow refuse to work with the card as well?

 

Again, this just sounds crazy really. At least it's always under a "Recommended System Requirements" heading .. not a "Required System Requirements" heading!

 

Anyway, that's all for now. Thanks again for the great help! Any info about Viewgate would still be nice though. Thanks!

 

EDIT: Just had a little talk with ViewGate and it turns out I can only have two cards per system, and they have to be the exact same card. SO I can have two 8CH one or two 16CH ones. It's not bad considering I could get 32 channels out of it. They said the motherboard is fine but I need to change the video card to an ATI one. So I'm off today to the PC shop to exchange it. They also mentioned their cards are going to be IP compatible in the near future as well. That's an added bonus as well. Just thought I'd update my situation so far.