dejota

Hello, I work for a manufacturer and I recently got a major distributor/installer to give me a chance to considering switching over to our company. To be blunt, I'm still way to green to be making this kind of presentation and the obvious benefit to switching (saving money) is not even going to make this company bat an eye. I was hoping to speak with a seasoned veteran in detail about some of the larger manufacturers/distributers of CCTV and hopefully get an insight to some of their shortcomings and pitfalls so I can compare them to our company and come up with some ideas for the presentation. I tried getting help from another salesman here and his best "angle" was they could brand our products as their own...and I just don't see how that brings enough to the table to consider a major change in a pretty large company. Anyways, if you think you could help me with this please PM me for my email address so we can discuss this further. If somehow this violates the rules of the forum: DOUBLE APOLOGY!!!!! I'm just trying to get a better feel for this industry since my company's insight thus far has been handing me stacks of paperwork and sticking me in a cubicle and hoping I come out a CCTV expert (with six figure sales to boot...) EDIT: More info: One major catch is the company isn't neccissarily unhappy with their current people, I'm just either lucky or struck a chord and he liked me and decided to give me a chance to make a pitch. After an initial discussion yesterday for about an hour he reported little to no frustrations with his current vendors.

Haha, I actually found out today my last hope at the station I interned at is no more. Lost out on the open position to somebody with more design experience...damn. This week has been a little better. I'm finally starting to get a few hits on the mass emailings, tweetings and what not. Either way I'm spending the weekend editing audio and posting it to the web and just applying for any and every radio job in the nation. Chris - I checked out as much of the first book you mentioned as google would let me preview but couldn't find a preview for the other one (except on amazon, but I don't have an account). It's interesting stuff, but I'm just not the business owner and have very little sway to changing how things go here. The business model is let the product sell it self, just show it to enough people. I'm going to stick it out and keep trying but if people that are in the same boat as I am are just going to criticize things I can't control in lieu of trying to help it seems I'm on my own. Thanks to the installers for the tips, I wish I could do more to implement some of those great suggestions into our products. If nothing else I definitely can say I have a better understanding of where the people I'm talking to are coming from. And I can't say I blame you guys for the frustration with manufacturers.

Excellent info, thanks! That helped a lot and now I have some questions to as my bosses. They must hate me with all my questions, but there's a lot of information and with everyone in the industry an "expert" you have to know a little about a lot of things to even hang with some of the conversations I've been having. Here's another question for you: What is more popular? Standalones or cards?

Who offers a three year warranty? We offer a two year warranty and in today's day and age that's plenty. I can't think of any electronics off the top of my head that comes with a 3 year warranty. It's not our job to market or know the product for you. If I had a client that asked for my assistance I'd gladly provide it, but at the end of the day it's not my job to sell for you. And a lot of your suggestions are things that I feel are either inherent (which might just be my company) or, more importantly, things that won't come into play until a purchase is being considered. If I could get even half the people I talk with to even look at our specs, compare prices and give me a shot to provide half the services on the back end of the deal that you mention I'd be a very successful salesman. What I'm looking for is 3 or 4 bullet points I can present quickly and efficiently that would make half of the companies I contact review my company further. For example specs and returns and sales on terms are all things that don't effect people in your shoes until after there's some sort of relationship established. I'm having difficulty getting my proverbial foot through the door, providing customer service on the back end is a cake walk for me. It's simple, what would you have to hear on a 5 minute phone call or see in a flier email that would make you at least stop and investigate further? If there's honestly nothing the industry is as rigid as it seems and I need to start pursuing my radio career again because I'm not presumptuous enough to go around telling people what's good for their businesses. Besides I've yet to come across one person in this field who doesn't feel like they know it better than everyone else, so bludgeoning my product onto people doesn't exactly seem like the best path to take.

I could see the evidence sharing and had never considered that part. Do cards allow you to store the data in different file formats or something similar? As far as the cheaper, see my above reasoning and 4 channels aren't even three digits to purchase anymore (not all of them). How expensive is a low end/fewer features card? Faster frame rates? Doesn't that, at the end of the day, have more to do with other equipment and compression technology than the DVR or Card? And as for the features, can you give me some examples? Can you do things such as stream data over the internet to a remote hard drive? Things like that? I hope this didn't come across as an attempt at a debate, I'm way too green when it comes to CCTV for me to go around pretending like I know better than anyone. I'm just genuinely curious.

I don't know much about PC cards except that they seem incredibly illogical to me. I'd never recommend one over a standalone DVR and unless you have a killer machine with over 500GB storage that you never use and that can run 24/7 I don't see how they save money either. But like I said, I don't know enough about DVR cards to take it much further than that so don't just take my word for it. And as far as the cameras are concerned, don't only concern yourself with what area's they have to cover but what pictures you'd expect each camera to provide you with (I.E. a close up, a car's color/make/model as it drives by, a license plate number, a face, etc.). I see so many examples of people planning a CCTV system, thinking that they have every inch covered only to have an incident occur then they *** because they didn't get the IMAGES they wanted. Just because the entire space shows up on footage doesn't always mean those images will serve your purpose. So while we can all recommend you cameras that serve general purposes/lighting/scenes well, it's up to you to determine what you need to capture on these images for your practical purposes (Do you want to be able to ID the thief/vandal or just find out when your most vulnerable so you can take some other course of preventative action?). Hope that helps.

Most cameras require manual adjustment unless your using PTZ cameras (pan, tilt, zoom). If you're using PTZs and the DVR supports using a mouse to control it (which I've never heard of, but I've only been doing this since November) then setting it up is going to be something unique to that company. Generally when controlling multiple cameras from a central location a PTZ controller is used and aside from changing the protical setting on the DVR and attaching/finding the positive negative hook-ups I know nothing about them. I could be completely wrong but either way you're probably going to have to contact the company who made your products to figure out exactly what it's capable of doing as compared to your expectations.

I see where you're coming from COP. The line about just being another person just saying my product was better because somebody told me so struck home. That's sorta the reason I'm asking you guys is because that's basically what my company has done. I'm saying that I can't discern the differences or they're not obvious. Sure I have everyone's prices beat by a couple of dollars, but for many of the same reasons you listed that's just not enough for most people to give my company a fair shake. I don't have the resources to do samples or mass poll a bunch of people. They already are annoyed I'm calling trying to introduce my product line I don't know if I'd have much luck getting them to take 10-20 minutes unless they're incredibly frustrated and have to vent...in which case they probably are the 5% that does take the time to review my company and ultimately calls me back. I guess to rephrase the question: With everything in the market practically identical upon first glance (pricing, specs, etc.), what would be a key feature or something I could bring to the table that would make you take a second look?

It's probably both. Subtle differences are hard to noticed for most in my experience and many of the samples I've seen online are exactly as you describe. Another issue is that many samples are taken in completely ideal circumstances for the camera. The right conditions can make some really crappy cameras look really good. I also have the advantage of having a set up right at my desk so if anyone needs samples I can swap out the camera in about two seconds and just take a screen shot or have them just stream the entire process. I've even done that on an iPhone with my newest client and it really does go a long way. He's going to have a set up in his store where his customers can come stream me anytime from an iPhone to see for themselves. He seems to believe this will be a major selling point for him. I hope for both of our sakes he's right. That and we're still waiting on the factory before we'll have the iPhone H.264s ready for the 8 and 16 channel DVRs. I digress and I should get back to the cold calls anyways. I'm liking this thread btw, great idea Soundy.

COP - I agree that would be ideal, but it's just not cost-effective. I know from my end our profit margines are getting so razor thin due to all the cheapo crap out there there's just no way that could be profitable. Especially when you can demo the picture quality over the net or in an email. Plus I'm having trouble imagining what exactly sending out a couple hundred dollars worth of equipment would really bring to the table. Let's say we send out 100 of the packages, how many of those people would be able to plug in our stuff, take a look at it and go oh...they've got 70 more lines of resolution and the 1/3" chipset as opposed to the 1/4". Sure there might be a few people that can eyeball that, but at the end of the day I don't think it's an efficient way to communicate differences that'll change many people's mind. I do agree you're on the right track, I'm just wondering if there's not a more effective means to communicate the subtle differences. Scorpion - That just gave me some funny mental images. "If I can beat your new CCTV surveillance system, I'M JUST GONNA GIVE IT TO YOU!" or another good one that popped in there. "I'm a 5th generation surveillance expert. Let me put my family's years of hard work, detication and experience to you're good use!" That said, that idea would apply to a distributor more than me. Our clients are so spread out and many of them market our products with their brand name on it that it also wouldn't be effective. But that would be hillarious to see!

That's essentially what I'm asking. With everyone basically the same in many installers/distributors eyes how can I separate my products from the others. I can know my product all day long but that doesn't mean I know what issues could potentially make a large company genuinly considering switching manufacturers. I mean the prices are all essentially the same at the lower end. Either that or the 4000 people I've called since November are just lazy and retarded. Otherwise I'd have a lot higher hit rate on the people that have seen my prices that call me back. From all I can tell our prices aren't being blown away by other competitors but it's to the point where the difference is no longer game changing. At least not to the point that they wanting to make a change. So now that I'm presented an opportunity to talk with a potentially big client I need to find out what these big guys are (or aren't) bringing to the table. Specs wise my stuff blows everyone elses lower end gear out of the water...but again what does that really mean to the installer/distributor with all the crap that's out there. As so many of you are quick to point in other threads, what's being advertised usually isn't what's being delivered. You've all become skeptics and understandably so. That still leaves the unanswered question, what can I do and look at that could potentially set me apart.

It's probably me, I have a thudding headache making thinking very difficult. It's just a program that when you open it, you can input the IP and port information and view the cameras remotely.

Thank You! Excellent post. Tons to research there and compare to my products but certainly a starting point and a conversation starter. This is exactly what I'm looking for. If I can come up with 3 or 4 similar ideas, just things that might be a thorn in this guys side, it's a lot more likely to turn into a conversation as opposed to the original call which was merely a history lesson for his company and CCTV. I think if he can see that I put in the research and grunt work to try and solve issues he wasn't aware he was having I'll have a very nice in. PS: Any samsung/speco users out there?

Any viewing program. I don't know if it's standard, but with most of our DVRs you can view from the DVR, through internet explorer or through the viewing program downloadable from our website. And even in some cases the iPhone, Blackberry or other windows based phones. Non Ip - I basically just mean analog or any system you could run over a network that's not on an individual camera basis.

I really could be a great a open topic. And yes, that's essentially what I'm asking for. For this particular situation there are some details and specifics (companies I'm competeing against and information the guy revealed over the phone I don't feel comfortable posting in a forum) that change the dynamics a little bit. But as for the general topic itself I really could use any schooling out there. Like I said I've been handed things suchs as "Glossary of CCTV terms" and "Networking 101". We do some IP, but mostly its DVRs, cameras (every type), some spy cameras (motion detector, home guards and mini domes), then all the misc stuff (wiring, power supply, housing, monitors and brackets). Our quality is middle of the road from what I can tell. Our lower end products are fairly decent (nothing below 420 TVL, Sony 1/3" chips in everything, and on most every camera you can get LEDs/Hi-Res/Varifocal lenses for only a few dollars more) and our best products wouldn't be considered cutting edge technology. As I mentioned, the best thing about our company is our pricing. From what I have been able to gather, our lowest prices are on par with other companies but our specs for those products (such as resolution, the chipsets and lux ratings) are an upgrade over most companies "cheaper" products. Our DVRs aren't going to really impact the decision one way or the other, IMO. They're cheap (pricing wise), fairly good quality, but we're lacking when it comes to features. We offer everything your average user would ever need, but when it comes to the bells and whistles it stops and ends with the compression technology. And thanks to the many different versions of compression and the crap quality that's out there, terms such as H.264 have become nothing more than a glittering generality. Anyways, sorry for the novel and if any of it was just rambling nonsense from somebody still new to the field. Hope it helps.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but you don't need IP to be able to watch from home. A simple viewer to a Networked system would suit you for that or in many cases just directing IE to the IP itself works. I don't see how watching from home would drive the situation towards IP or not. If the only factor is watching from home you can do that with non IP systems just fine. To me the main factors for IP usually boils down to how far apart your cameras are and what the wiring situation is like. If you can keep your cameras relatively close together and don't have prexisting wiring impacting the decision then non IP is almost always cheaper and what I'm going to recommend. Regardless of whether or not the end user wants to watch from home. Maybe I missed something there...I have only been doing this since November.

Freaking cool post! Is it too early to nominate posts of the year?

That helped quite a bit. I've literally been thrown in a cubicle with a binder and told to go sell CCTV equipment so a lot of my training has been my own responsibility. This forum has been a great aid in learning the ropes.

Hello, I recently began working for a manufacturer and we work exclusively with DVRs. I've been on this forum about 3 weeks now and I still lack a fundamental understanding of what makes DVRs different from PC cards. In particular, I'm interested in the pros and cons. Also as somebody that's only selling DVRs themselves what differences should I be aware of to make my life easier and keep my distributers happy? Similarly, we only offer one IP camera and from everything I can tell they're more of a hassel and more expensive yet only provide one obvious upside. They also seem to be more popular on this board so I was hoping for a similar run down of the IP world and what I need to know being in the shoes of somebody that's generally going to steer people away from IP cameras (I.E. when should I be pushing my one IP camera or what upsides do IP cameras provide that I'm not aware of?) I'm sorry if there are threads pertaining to this that I've not managed to find over the past month. -DJ

Looking through those products the biggest issues seem to be resolution related. Even the "expensive" camera in the bunch only offers 420 lines of resolution. Only way to improve that would be increasing the quality of the cameras your using. That said 100 more lines of resolution (on a 520 Hi-Res cam) is only going to go so far. Maybe now that you've been there longer you are more familair with "key" areas that you'd want to focus on and replace only those cameras. Basically I'd find a more specific use for my system before upgrading things, if it's just to keep a general eye out you'd be looking at replacing the entire system to get the better picture across the board. I suggest finding 2 or 3 key spots where you feel a very good image has a greater function and replace those cameras and rearrange your remaining equipment to keep a more general eye on things. Hope this helps.

The middle men pass off their tech-support to me so much that's it gotten to the point that myself and other co-workers spend about half our day providing it. Whether the client gives the end user our number or the client is at the end users site and just calls us himself. It's a service we feel is important to provide for obvious reasons. The middle man has learned and does nothing the end user or manufacturer can't do...get over it. It's not a knock on you or your expertise but this isn't exactly chemistry here. Sure it gets very complicated in some aspects, but we're talking about your average end user walking into your average spy/home-security store here not the Pentagon or La Guardia. For every well trained and well versed "middle man" there's another one price gouging, providing no customer support and then complaining about customers thinking they're shady and untrustworthy. I'm just pointing out it makes no sense to complain about customers acting that way when it's painly obvious to anyone who does an hour of homework that nearly everything we sell has three or four figure markups by the time it gets to the end user. We're all consumers at some point, and in my experience the middle men I'm talking about are the one's who lose site of that.

You're going to want an 8+ camera system. The main things to look for are Hi-Res/Low lux cameras for when you have the lights on, and some good hi-res/low lux/IR cams for when it goes dark. Depending on what you having obstructing views you'd mix and match the cameras to ensure complete coverage. I also always recomend a box cam with zoom to focus on your entrance so you can get a clean shot of anyone that enters your bar. That would most likely be your highest quality camera since you'd want it to have night time capabilities as well. As long as that camera can be used to focus on any potential entry spots in addition to the front door you should be able to capture a nice enough image of anyone coming in your bar. The other cameras that cover the rest of the bar, unless needed for a specific use you didn't mention, wouldn't have to as high quality if they're FOV is unobstructed and you compensate for the dynamic lighting with plenty of LED/low lux cameras.

The reason I used Wal Mart as an example was because it's a store that buys products directly from manufactures and then markets them directly to the consumer. The reference had nothing to do with quality of employees, level of service or anything other than the fact the customer goes there and makes their purchase with peace of mind they're getting the best deal or very close to it. Nothing else was ment to be implied, so please don't think I was comparing somebody who knows a product such as CCTV to the greeter at the front door. But just because a certain level of expertise is required to sell a product doesn't change the fact that having a ton of middle men is the main reason the pricing world for CCTV is all over the map. As a consumer that's a big red flag and would explain said behavior many people were complaining about in this thread.

I love hearing stuff like this. The same customer won't pull this same crap with Wal-Mart. Why? Becuase there's no middle men. The CCTV market is saturated with middle men/distributors/whatever you want to call them that each put their own markups in place. If the market wasn't full of pit falls, traps and mark-ups maybe our customers wouldn't feel obligated to play that card. I have a really hard time feeling bad for this situation when the first person to jump on the posters bandwagon BRAGS about how his sales style is deceiving and tricky and is ADVISING other dealers/distributors/stores to do the same. You can dish it but you can't take it? That's the story with most every middle man in the security industry I've come across. They want to mark up a product, pass on their customer service/tech-support and not fully educate themselves on the products they sell...all at a 50%-500% markup depending on what you dishonest dealers think you can get...yet can't handle a customer that doesn't want to pay more than he has too...Yes, it's somehow the customers fault for wanting the best price or for learning all he can, no matter how he does it. Many distributors want to sell their stuff for the most amount of money even if they don't "discourage the impression" that it doesn't get any cheaper. When you know the prices aren't the lowest you can't get pissed at the customer for playing poker with you...you did it to him before he walked in the door hypocrite! This post turned out a bit different than I originally intended it, but looking through the eyes of a manufacturer the hypocritical nature of the responses to this post were getting over the top LOL!

Yah ebay is a nasty place and they certainly don't make it easy over there. When will this world stop with the rules and satart with the common sense