tomboyt

My husband and I have a Pub & Grill where we need to install a cctv security camera system. I have spent several days reading many of the posts on this forum. You all seem to know your stuff, so I would like to ask for your help in choosing a 16 channel dvr, cameras, and other esential components. I was hoping to only spend around $2000 but can go to $3500. Haven't been in business for a year yet so money is tight. I don't want to go overboard and buy more than I need, but I don't mind spending a little more to get what I do. If my budget is not enough, please advise anyway and perhaps in another month or two I can afford it. Here is what I need- (1) 16 channel dvr that will record at high enough resolution to identify individuals as well as what they are up to. I would like to have a dvr that records at a fast enough fps rate so that a person has not taken 2 steps before the next frame is recorded. If it is more cost effective I would like to purchase a dvr that we can install our own harddrives and dvd burner into. I would prefer to have audio on all 16 channels/cameras. Most imprtantly I want audio on all or most of the cameras inside the building. I want to be able to remotely view these cameras from home as well as from an iphone and other 3g smartphone. (2) cameras in the bar over the Micros computer systems. I really need something high resolution that works well in low light conditions for these two. Even during the day it is dimly lit in these areas. I want to be able to see my bartender, the drinks he pours, and what he is entering on the Micros system. My budget may not allow for it now, but eventually I would like to add one of these POS text overlay gadgets to each of these cameras. (1) camera in waitstation. This area has dim lighting as well. (1)camera for walk-in cooler. The temperature ranges from 38-41 degrees. This area is about 7'x15'. All the beer is kept in here and I want to be able to see every inch possible. (1) IR camera for the liquor closet. 8' x 6' I would like to be able to distingusish what liquor they are pulling off the shelves, but I don't neccesarily have to be able to read the labels. (2) IR cameras for front entry way and office. These would need to be high enough resolution to make identifying a person fairly easy. If there are walkouts or in the event of a robbery during business hours, these would be the only two cameras that would have a chance to capture footage of anyone in a public area. ***At a later date (when I have more $$) on the front entry way camera I would like to split the signal and have a monitor in the bar so the bartender can see who is coming in before they get to the bar area. (4) IR cameras for various other areas such as kitchen, pantry, dishwasing area, storage, and hallway. No special needs in these areas. We mostly want to make sure people are working. These areas are lit well during work hours. I just thought IR would be better in case of a break in during the night when we are closed. (5) IR outdoor cameras for viewing the parking lot. 2 of these I can mount fairly high up on a decorative chimney(out of the weather) for a better field of view. So maybe I need something a little higher in resolution to make up for the distance? The other 3 will be mounted out of reach on the side of the building. Because of where they will be mounted I don't think vandal proof cameras are neccesary. I think that makes 16 cameras! I could use more, but this will cover the essential areas. all cables, connectors, and power supplies. I think buying bulk cable and making our own in the neccesary lengths would be best. Surely it is more cost effective, right? The 16 channel dvr, the 2 cameras in the bar, and the one camera in the front entry way are of most importance at this time. If neccesary I can make do with cheap cameras elsewhere and add better cameras as I can afford them in the other areas. BUT I still want to know what you all think I should eventually install in these areas. As for the dvr, I really want to get something that will record good quality images and perform with the cameras I want to eventually have in place. From what I have read here and elsewhere, you can buy all the high resolution cameras you want, but if you don't have a dvr to match up with them, you only get the high quality images when you are watching live view on the monitor. When we are there we can keep a fairly good eye on the place. It's when we are not there that I am concerned with. I want to be able to watch from home or cellphone or view later from recorded images what is happeneing when we are not there. Oh yea- I would also like to have a system that will record only when motion is detected. Although, that looks pretty standard on the units I have looked at. Any input would be greatly appreciated. I am ready to get something up and running soon. As it is my husband and I rarely see one another except for about 1 hour at work each day. Long enough to brief each other on what has been or will be happening. I open and he closes so there are only about 5 hours each day that one of us is not in the building. We need to spend a little time at home with our daughter. I think a cctv camera system would give him a little peace of mind about leaving the place in our employees hands for a few hours.

I think I learned something new yesterday, but I want to run it by you guys and see if I can get verification. Was speaking to a man at 3xlogic and if I undertood right he told me this: I start off with a hybrid dvr and 16 analog channels. Later on if I decide to add 4 IP cameras, I buy this network switch to plug those IP cameras into, plug it in to the dvr, I then have a 20 camera unit- by keeping the 16 analogs. Is this correct? If so, does it affect your fps rate the same as the analog cameras? Do I now divide 20 into my dvr's maximum frame rate?

I'm guessing this is Vigil by 3xlogic? I can't find any prices anywhere online which usually means it is super expensive.

i have used two of the cnb dvrs in the past and they are not that easy to use (the same s/w as the appollo) what you are seeing in your diagram is what is called a pos box. this gives you many options of collecting your pos data to store. i would say that avermedia has the best pos system of any dvr. Tom- Avermedia says that if my MICROS 3700 system is not ASCII based then it will not work. I was all set to buy the Avermedia DVR and the CNB cameras. But it seems I purchased the wrong POS system to make this an easy project. I called 2 different installers to give me prices on doing this but they were scratching their heads as though no one had ever asked them to put these two (dvr & pos) systems together. With these guys it didn't seem to be a problem with just my POS. They had just never put a POS and DVR together.

Avermedia says my Micros 3700 POS system must be ASCII based to work with their dvrs. My husband says the MICROS are not, and I am awaiting confirmation from our MICROS dealer. However, they did say that a MICROS 3700 protocol could be written but it would take 2 months. Vision/iVsionis (their U.S. wholesaler) needed to do more research before they could answer my questions. They also refered me to one of their dealers who hasn't gotten back to me. OpenEyes promised a call Monday- it's Thursday and still haven't heard back from them. Seller's Point software will work if I buy the dvr from saysecurity or someone else who carries kodicom dvrs. Apparently they(saysecurity) are swamped with sales right now because I have to call multiple times to catch the sales guy. He won't return calls or emails unless you constantly badger him. Nice guy, but he must be really busy. I didn't realize that Tundra software and saysecurity were connected until I got aggrevated and called the number from Seller's Point software's website and asked if they had any other dealers for their software. I was told yes, and then my sales guy who was "out to lunch" was suddenly available. If this guy tells you to be "expecting something very shortly" from him, it means six plus hours and then you still have to call him 1 or 2 more times. But once you catch him he can answer your questions in a few short minutes. This software will do everything I want it to do as far as, real time transaction recording, searching by data, and searching by time. Geovision has a POS Text Sender Dongle that specifically says it is for MICROS- but it doesn't say MICROS 3700. But I need to know what type of DVR this product is used with. I waited on hold on this call until my battery went dead. Doing more searches today I found another product that looks promising. The AVE VSI Pro. From what I am reading it does everything I need as well. I just need to learn more about it and if there is any specific dvr's that I have to use with it. I am finding dvr after dvr that says it supports POS text in, but no one can tell me if it will work with MICROS 3700. This particular MICROS system seems to be a headache to integrate to a dvr. This was a whole lot easier before I learned there was this POS integration capability. Now I want this, but I want to do it in the simplest most cost effective way. I am not trying to be a cheapskate. I just want to know what all my options are. I do this with just about everything I buy. And I usually end up going with something on the upper end of the middle price. I want a product to perform in a way that suits my needs, but I don't think you always have to take the most expensive route. It took me 2 months to decide on a kayak. The total cost of this dvr project will decide if I get to buy that kayak (and it's a hybrid- everything is hybrid now) before fall gets here.

The vsionis 16ex and 16pro both show they have text-in search capability. Their website only shows one wholesale company in the U.S. I will try to contact them and Avermedia tomorrow.

Hi yes i have seen the avers pos working. even collecting data from the scanner. and also ever push on the till will display on the avers. it also logs voids. it is best not going though the printer ports as it only then sends data when till opens. best from display pole. Agreed, I think this is more an issue of the POS setup or output used, rather than the DVR. A printer port will usually be designed not to send data until commanded to, usually once the transaction is complete. The ones I've set up, the TVS or DVR are set to recognize "Polewatcher" text, and the POS is set to use that function on the output port. This is normally intended for the pole-mounted displays that show the customer what's being rung through, AS it's being rung through. There's no reason ANY DVR shouldn't be able to log that data on-the-fly. Does anyone know if I can search for terms such as CANCEL or VOID with the Avermedia? This way I don't have to watch the entire nights worth of video to see what people are up to. I would much rather go with the stand alone DVR and the CNB cameras if I can have them do what I need.

have you seen the Avermedia record live view POS data? Anything that is rung in before pressing SEND or PRINT?

On the diagram of how everything is hooked up while using the seller's point software, they are showing the POS server, each POS register, the internet, and the DVR all hooked to a network switch. What is this network switch? And is it usually called by a different name? If I do searches online I get mostly results pertaining to DishNetwork.

I called CNB and spoke to their tech guy as well as the woman who runs the sales department in Dallas. Their standalone DVR with POS logging only logs info after the PRINT or SEND button has been pressed on the POS. So if my bartender rings up a drink and then voids this entry before the SEND or PRINT function the DVR will not log the info. It appears this is the case with all the standalone DVR's I have been looking at- even the Hybrid Avermedia that was suggested. If the PRINT or SEND function is used on the POS then our employees can not VOID anything without a card swipe from my husband or I, but I need to see if it is being dome before the order is printed. It looks like I am going to have to go with a PC based DVR with real time POS text recording software/capture card in order to get the POS text function to work the way I want it to. I am waiting for a demo and price quote for Seller's Point software made by Tundra. The other products that I have found are Remote Eyes and Open Eyes. Remote Eyes wants you to by the entire system from them and have a used car saleman type salesman that I couldn't get off the phone with. He kept trying to tell me that if I am losing $x each week then in x weeks the system would pay for itself. I couldn't seem to make him understand that I am aware of this, but I don't have $x to start off with. And apparently his cameras were the only good cameras out there. Haven't heard back yet from Open Eyes. Seller's Point- you can just buy the software. Here I thought I had this all figured out on just what I wanted. Now I have to start all over. So, I am just starting to read up on these PC based DVR systems. Are they going to be more complicated on the user end? Anything I should be looking for in making my selection? Anything I should try to stay away from? It looks like I will have to up my budget, but by the time I sift through all this information and make a decision I should have more money to spend.

Pardon my ignorance, but I was just looking at Avermedia's website and they are showing 2 different categories of hybrid dvrs. Hybrid DVR/NVR Embedded Hybrid DVR/NVR what is the difference? Didn't I read one thread on here where most of you didn't care much for Avermedia? I can't find it now, but I remember seeing the jeep picture (which I have seen on numerous threads) with recorded images from an avermedia dvr and some other dvr. Am I remembering right?

Backlighting. That is another issue I will have to deal with in the front entry(foyer). This area has a big 15 panel glass door to the outside. I need the camera pointing at this door. Next to the door is a glass panel wall that looks just like the door. Another wall to the right as you walk in is also all glass. During the day there will be a lot of light behind anyone coming through the door. Moving the camera to the lobby won't change things because in order to get in the lobby from the foyer you have to pass through another huge 15 panel glass door with another matching glass wall. You also add the light from all the dining room widows in the lobby. I saw a CNB camera comparison on YouTube that showed a camera that dealt with this situation fairly well. I think it was the DBM-24VF. This was late last night and I have this model number jotted down here on my notepad- so I think this is it.

Really? Ok, I have to go do some more reading. Maybe do some more searches on YouTube. Whew- this is hard work. Well it depends on the location, we use mostly BW Bullet cameras as they are cheap and generally mount them high enough away from hands. Also they are black housings and its dark so nobody sees them. Color vandal dome on the entrance, Color or day night cameras in the car parks ... started to add more light to one outside bar so using color there now .. but still mostly the cheap BW cameras suffice, even when trying some really low light color and day night cameras they just end up staying in BW anyway for us, or the color has noise as too low light. KT&C have the BW bullets and they also have the mini cubes .. in BW 420TVL (0.03 Lux) and 600TVL (0.3 lux) and exview models which are even lower lux. Now when i say cheap i dont mean the BW ones you get at Sams club or Kmart! Stick to a decent brand name. Ofcourse if its going to be easy for someone to grab then a vandal dome would be best, hard to find a BW model though, could make your own or just try the true day night CNBs as soundy mentioned, as they are reasonably priced. If its too dark then you would need IR. But thats a whole other ball game, unless its just a small room then thats easy to cover with almost any near decent Color IR camera. Problem with alot of Color IR cameras is the colors can be off .. also alot of cheap cameras like that have terrible light handling. CNB also have a couple true Day night IR Vandal Dome. Alot of times the IR can just cause a persons face to be a blob of light though. Worst case scenerio is you put in the BW bullets then you get a better idea of what you want .. and go from there. As they are not that expensive its cheap to replace them, or sell them off to someone else as you swap out for a more expensive camera. Though even BW cameras need some light .. so if its too dark to see then you might want to look at IR cameras. Check out the turret IR vandal domes on the cheap side, they can do normally 30-40' of IR inside. There are tons of brands that sell them though and not all are good. It's low light but not so dark you have trouble seeing (unless you are the ****tail waitress that is closing and is supposed to sweep the floor- they apparently have trouble seeing). We have 15 recessed can lights, 6 drop pendant fixtures, 4 huge lcd tv's that throw light around, recessed cans in the glass racks above the bar, and lights under and above the back bar shelves. Most of the lights are kept dimmed down. 5 years ago I could have read a newspaper in the darkest area of the bar, but now I have to get under the light and hold it out away to focus.

I know my budget is low for what you all deal with most of the time, but I am trying to do better than going to Sam's and buying everything in one box. I will be happy with getting the right DVR and at least 4 cameras to start off. There are even a few places where I could get away with some cheap cameras for a while, like the walk in cooler, pantry, hallway, and dishwashing area. This would allow me to keep an eye on things until I can afford to upgrade each of them. The walkin cooler- I mainly need to see that only certain people are pulling beer off the shelves. And the other areas I just need to see that everyone is working and not on the phone or texting- or drinking beer that they took a five finger discount on. My area of most importance is the bar with the 2 micros units and the front entry. 80% of our revenue comes from the bar. If drinks are not being rung in before they are made I lose big. I really wanted to have audio in this area for the sole purpose of hearing drinks being called out and then they forget to ring them in. This is a no-no but I am sure it happens when we are not watching. We have gone almost a year without a security camera system so even if I have to do this in chapters I will be making progress. I can't afford the super high dollar stuff, but I am hoping to get the best for what I can afford. Thanks for all your input so far. I look forward to more. Now I think I will go do some research on the B&W lower resolution cameras and then get some shut eye. If it isn't 100+ degrees tomorrow I am taking my daughter fishing. She just got her first fly rod and it hasn't seen the river yet. Oh yeah- almost forgot. We are in central Arkansas. (someone asked earlier)

a ptz does not have to be on tour all the time. but it is the best camera type for a carpark. its just good to have the option of a moving camera when needed. Ah, but that's still only useful when someone is sitting watching the camera. I've done lots of pub and restaurant installs, and my experience, in their parking lots, that's not likely to ever happen - the staff have more important things to do, and none of them are going to pay someone just to sit there and monitor the cameras (they'd be more likely to pay a security guard to simply patrol the lot on foot). The main thing parking lot cameras are used for is a general replay of any incidents - one car backing into another and driving off, perhaps a fight... you don't need exceptional detail to see what happened, and the make, model, and maybe color of involved vehicles, so one or two basic wide-angle cameras are generally sufficient. With the amount of area you need covered, facial recognition or license plates are going to be unattainable anyway unless you're using something with SUBSTANTIAL resolution, or a much greater number of cameras zoomed on smaller areas. The best way to get plates in such a situation is simply to have one camera zoomed in on an entrance/exit choke point. No, you certainly don't want a PTZ for this purpose - it's really not worth the extra expense. My husband would think the PTZ was real fun........for about 3 days. Then I am afraid it would sit idol. We just don't have time to sit in the office. The threat of knowing it was there may be a good deterent for some employees that make trips to their car at night and come back in red eyed.

Really? Ok, I have to go do some more reading. Maybe do some more searches on YouTube. Whew- this is hard work.

Hi tomboyt. nice to see you are putting in some good work in find the right system. but as mentioned your cost is a little low. but you have a good budget to start buying. you say you need 16 cameras. why not buy a good dvr and some cameras with your budget and keep adding as and when you can. start by protecting your loss areas first i.e tills/ stock/ kitchen area and car park. have you thought of a ptz camera for your carpark area. 1 camera ptz will save you money on putting cameras everywere. 1 ptz with sensors. also when looking for a dvr in a pub it is good to have pos on your dvr. this will let you see how much stock you have sold each day along with video. but always look for brand name systems. take a look at the avermedia range of hybrids.(all have pos) and you cant go wrong with cnb cameras. were are you so we can see who is a good supplier in your area. Hybrid? Humm- that means no H.264 right? I had read and read on this subject and thought that I had come to the conclusion that h.264 was the way to go. Now after searching through old posts on this forum I am wondering again. Besides the POS feature, what else would I gain by going with a hybrid? And if I am reading this right- most of these hybrids have half the video in jacks for analog cameras and half for IP cameras. Or at least it appeared that way with the ones I looked at. What are the advantages/disadvantages of IP cameras? Some comparison photos I saw looked like the analog did a better job in low light.

I appreciate your help. The CNB cameras look like they will work great. From reading the older posts here it appears that several of you use the CNB cameras pretty regularly. What do you all think of their dvrs? I see on their website that their 16 ch has POS overlay built in. I have done a few searches and I am not finding a dvr that logs POS info rather than overlaying it on the video. Can you point me to a make and model? I would like to read more about this. Any suggestions on where to buy CNB products? I am only finding 2 places online. CNB's website allows you to add items to a shopping cart, but doesn't give any prices. I am assuming they only sell to dealers since this is the case. But where are all these dealers? Another pub owner here told me he purchaseed his dvr from DVR USA. He seems happy with it, but he also doesn't seem to be very knowledgable about any of his dvr's capabilities. I think he only uses it to keep an eye on employees. Also it looks like there are 2 different companies by this name- one in OH and one in CA. Anyone purchased from either of these?