Reviews of GenIV DVR

[Gesualdo 0]

I was looking at the specs for the G4-RTA-D1 DVR and wanted to get your opinions first. Any users or reviews.

 

http://www.intellicamusa.com/PDF/G4-RTA-D1.pdf

[fdwyer 0]

Maybe a dealer has a "B" stock that we can try.

 

Thanks, Frank

[shoreviewsecurity 0]

This DVR is the only Stand Alone that I use and install in my local market. I like its flexibility, features and especially it's reliability. I have many of these units installed and have never had one fail. May be a biased opinion but the unit speaks for itself.

[Gesualdo 0]

It looks like a really good dvr by the specs, but how does it rate to GE/Kalatel, IC REALTIME, Bosch, Sanyo, etc. Why is'nt anyone talking it up or use it on big projects or "pro" jobs like the others? Does it truely do 30 fps of highest quality picture on all 8 or 16 cameras at once, or does the frame drop significantly like all the others?

[fdwyer 0]

Soon as I dump my Speco, I am going for the G4-RTA-D1 DVR. I am sure I'll find a customer for the Speco that will be happy with it. Mike do you have a better picture of the front of the G4 dvr.

 

 

Thanks, Frank

 

stagecraftaudio

[shoreviewsecurity 0]

Hi Frank,

 

The best I can do is visit my site and take a look at the PDF link. That has a pretty good front panel shot.

 

Thanks

 

Mike

[shoreviewsecurity 0]

I can see traffic on my site. I think you may have just visited. See you coming in from RI. Went to your site - very nice. Great pictures of your work too!!

[normicgander 0]

Maybe a dealer has a "B" stock that we can try.

 

Doesn't Intellicam Digital Security sell to end users to cut out dealers and distributors?

[Gesualdo 0]

Been reading old threads after searching for intellicam. So it is an OEM DVR from where? Who makes it?

 

Any answers to my previous questions?

 

Gesualdo

[normicgander 0]

If you are wanting dealer/pro feedback it could be unlikely because it appears they sell direct to everyone....

[Gesualdo 0]

Maybe ...I don't know? I want to know how much of the advertising is fact and how much is hype? I'm tired of being burned by not quite understanding all the twists of the jargon to get a good product. I've become very, very cynical about the advertisng and marketing of security products. What is not quite stated, but implied, is killing me. Straight answers are IMPOSSIBLE to get. Noone gives an answer that isn't coached or hedged in some way to be non-commital and non-specific. I feel like I'm dealing with politicians and used car salesmen. Is it a contractor thing too?

 

Does the DVR actually record best quality images at D1(704X480) @ 30fps on ALL channels AT THE SAME TIME and play back those images at D1 also?

 

Is it worth the asking prices?

 

How does it rate compared to other high quality DVRs?

 

What is really comparable to it?

 

How many people actually use it?

so far.... 2?

 

Why or why not?

 

Does anyone know?

 

 

 

 

 

SORRY just frustrated

[jharrell 0]

The unit seems to be made by Hikvision and sold under Intellicam and Q-See.

 

It seems to me that the D1 model does infact do 30fps at D1 per channel where as the lower model does 12fps at D1.

 

Also it supports a secondary lower bitrate stream for live network streaming. So that you can record Full D1 30fps yet stream in say CIF at 6fps if you access it through a slow inet connection. Looks like you can choose which stream from the client so a lan computer can still connnect to the full D1 stream, nice.

 

I am quite interested in this DVR as price and features seem good although I don't do this for a living.

 

Another nice thing is they provide both a windows and linux SDK for the unit so that if you know how to code in C you could write your own client for whatever purpose. I haven't found this very easy to come by on any other DVR only the ip cams.

 

I am contemplating developing an iPhone interface to this unit as no one seems to be supporting that device yet it is an ideal WiFi based video viewer.

 

Justin

[normicgander 0]

SORRY just frustrated

 

I hear you! To be in this business as a dealer is hard work to balance being both competitive and providing the good quality product. It never ends. I have a few DVR boat anchors in the shop. However, it's typically (one or more) the local GUI/menu, archiving ability, and remote viewing software that falls short.

 

The term D1, because of the different levels of applied compression, is an absolutely meaningless specification. There is no figure or standard measurement of merit (TVL would be better). Does not D1 quality vary from DVR to DVR? With respect to analog input DVRs, D1 implies frame recording. We won't even talk about interlace distortion in dynamic scenes.

[intellicam 0]

Maybe a dealer has a "B" stock that we can try.

 

Doesn't Intellicam Digital Security sell to end users to cut out dealers and distributors?

 

The "retail" listed price of any Intellicam product is a minimum of 40% in favor of resellers. Often that gap is closer to 100%. Most customers, some I might mention have been purchasing from us since the nineties send their customers to our website as it works as a convenient marketing tool for them.

 

For anyone on this or any forum, we would love a personal visit from you or your installation/sales staff. We have three locations, but our Cincinnati, Oh. location is ideal for training, demo's, marketing materials, etc.

 

My name is Gerald Spradlin and I am the owner of Intellicam. I appreciate all comments, favorable and unfavorable, providing the comments are true. Again, please visit this staff, this facility, and meet our degreed engineers, and well trained sales account managers.

 

As for pricing, perceived value, and skepticism, I have to agree with anyone who needs "proof" of any product delivering advertised performance. Everyone needs to be quite diligent these days ensuring product integrity. Repeat business is most important.

 

When we "price" a product, we put a great deal of thought into whether or whether not we can represent extreme value to resellers and installers. I personally assume each and everyone of you know full well what Asian manufacturers charge for any camera, any accessory, or any DVR system. We take that price, offer our key suppliers full container volume, and we make every attempt to market said products in the USA for 5% or less of the same price you would need to pay to "import" directly. Our mindset is that all of you are savvy enough to find ANY supplier and buy direct. But, if we can market reliable products, and not be forced to work in costly rma expense, support expense, and deliver those items to your company at close to same prices you import directly for, we may be of significant benefit to you. Allowing you to use your capital for marketing, and other SG&A expenditures.

 

As for "pricing", our P400X uber high end camera was available for 240.00 all of 2006 and 2007. That identical camera sold by Speco available at MCM and ADI sold for 490.00 We finally found a replacement model (Made In Korea) that outperformed that P400 and further reduced cost to 178.00, yet, others do sell the same camera, for closer to 400.00 and I urge any and all of you to grab a quality Pelco CRT monitor and resolution chart and verify that model and any model we sell or that our competition sells. When you add "distribution" layers to cost, and factor six figure income outside sales staff to the cost of any cctv item, value vanishes. That business model works, and I envy the Speco's, Pelco's, and Boschs' that pulled it off. Intellicam is a low margin, high volume, yet extremely accurate and fair distributor. We have had opportunity to market to big box resellers and retail outlets. We're successful and comfortable in our present form, and intend to stay on this course for another ten years.

 

Additionally, and this is a permanent post, for any buyer new to the industry, or new to Intellicam, feel free to purchase any product, test it, run it through your motions, and if you are not satisfied for any reason, return it. No restocking fee, no hassle, just do it in a reasonable 30 days.

 

As for the D1 DVR. We sell the same Texas Instruments DSP based DVR units in 1CIF, 2CIF, and 4CIF versions. Aventura and Intellicam market 2CIF and above. Q-See is limited to the 1CIF model. Q-See markets to Costco and other deep "big box" retailers.

 

The Texas Instruments based DVR systems are without doubt, using unimpeachable erp generated accurate rma data, by a long shot the most reliable DVR systems we've ever sold. I'll be polite and not post rma failure percentages for a few other manufacturers that are being marketed right here on this forum.

 

The huge advantage T.I. based DVR systems offer to you, whether you buy from us or any other distributor is a very high frame rate specification, fastest internet viewing, synced audio, real time (true real-time), and selection, (1CIF, 2CIF, or 4CIF----your choice) . Perhaps the biggest advantage is marketing the Texas Instruments DSP name. We signed a lengthy licensing agreement with T.I. allowing us exclusive naming rights to their DSP processors and are the only company allowed to display the T.I. logo on external DVR cases. When you are selling a system, and someone underbids you with an Argus Jpeg2000, or Yoko or AVTech model, most purchasing managers will buy your unit given they trust the processor name. Most other embedded DVR systems do not use a DSP processor, are less powerful and flexible, and offering an "Intel Inside" type strategy does win you more bids. More importantly, Texas Instruments is a multi-billion dollar company for a reason, they make the best DSP and DLP processors in the world. No bugs, no firmware fixes, no drama, just six sigma performance.

 

The disadvantage to our DVR line, and this is being addressed, is the ease of use. Our line of DVR requires experienced CCTV professionals. Having the flexibility to control bandwidth, to set each channel completely independent of others, to use dual streaming, and bit mapping, etc, etc, offers enormous flexiblity, but obviously requires learning the product.

 

An Argus JPEG2000, or AVTech, etc, are much easier to use "out of the box". However, on a performance comparison, felxibility comparison, frame rate comparison, and above all, getting 5-15 days out of a 250GB hard drive at real time at good quality on H.264 as opposed to a mere 21 hours on JPEG2000 does offer buyers significant incentive to take the time to learn h.264 technology. Within 2 years, the vast majority of all DVR systems will be H.264.

 

Another point on pricing is volume. We can't always buy the volume we would like and take advantage of 5-6 week sea container shipping. When we have a winning line of products, we can negotiate huge volume discounts and by ordering container as opposed to air, we can shave another 80.00 to 100.00 off the price of bulky items such as DVR and PTZ. And some CCTV distributors are simply over priced. We halved our competition and maintained a reasonable and healthy margin on both PTZ and DVR. That doesn't make the product cheap, doesn't make the product "suspicious", it simply forces competitors to be more realistic.

 

The old cctv distribution model is no longer valid. All of you are a 2 minute email away from obtaining any overseas manufacturers quote on any cctv related product. We operate assuming you are diligent and do query manufacturers. As long as we stay focused, keep our Asian office running, and respect your ability to source product directly, and price our goods accordingly, we offer you value and convenience. The day we lose sight of this, and take a prideful mindset that our suppliers are top secret entities, we'll fail.

 

I appreciate any CCTV professional that took the time to read this post. I would be honored by a visit from each of you. Meet this staff, see us, and you'll fully understand just how professional and hard working everyone here is.

[normicgander 0]

The disadvantage to our DVR line, and this is being addressed, is the ease of use. Our line of DVR requires experienced CCTV professionals. Having the flexibility to control bandwidth, to set each channel completely independent of others, to use dual streaming, and bit mapping, etc, etc, offers enormous flexiblity, but obviously requires learning the product.

 

Those features are standard now. I would keep them. Perhaps the GUI interface/menu needs enhancement.

 

But, I'm sort of confused. What or who is your market? CCTV dealers (direct) or Joe Blow via the internet?

 

This is a free country don't get me wrong. Heck, ISC west demonstated that with all the Asian OEMs, anyone can be an instant e-tailer/manufacturer/distributor.

 

When I visted your site it mentioned something about offering direct to customer product pricing, cutting out the dealers, distributors or resellers or something to that effect. I have no problem with that in our free market, but as a dealer, I didn't give the product another glance. My point, is that DIY folks and dealers are on this forum and not many dealers would sell products, where their customers can buy direct.

 

Therefore the person who made the original post may not get many or any responses. Good luck...

Edited April 12, 2008 by Guest

[rory 0]

Within 2 years, the vast majority of all DVR systems will be H.264.

 

I hope not, from the images I have seen.

[jharrell 0]

Q-See is limited to the 1CIF model. Q-See markets to Costco and other deep "big box" retailers.

 

If you check q-see's website you can see they are also offering the same Hikvision DVR as the QSF2648008 model that records in 4CIF.

 

I hope not, from the images I have seen.

 

What would you consider superior to h.264? Remember this is the same codec used to compress video on Blu-Ray and probably the most advanced temporal video compression method available today, surpassing mjpeg and mpeg2 in almost every way.

 

Now granted D1 compressed in h.264 at 1Mbps will not look as good as MPEG2 at 8Mbps, but compare apples to apples, that is bitrate to bitrate and h.264 will win every single time and give a equivalent picture in less bits.

 

Justin

Edited April 12, 2008 by Guest

[rory 0]

What would you consider superior to h.264? Remeber this is the same codec used to compress video on Blu-Ray and probably the most advanced temporal video compression method available today, surpassing mjpeg and mpeg2 in almost every way.

 

Now granted D1 compressed in h.264 at 1Mbps will not look as good as MPEG2 at 8Mbps, but compare apples to apples, that is bitrate to bitrate and h.264 will win every single time and give a equivalent picture in less bits.

 

Justin

 

Anything that came before it, eg Mpeg4, MJpeg - size of video does not bother me anymore, quality does.

 

Ive yet to actually see any decent video from an H264 DVR .. there is ALOT of hype and marketing .. but no actual D1 images or video that show it is better than others. It is definitely more compressed and great for remote video, but other than that .. Anyone can SAY it is great .. but seeing is believing, and it seems not one DVR that uses H264 can find the time to provide some real samples yet.

 

Once again .. I await marketers to actually provide some video and images to actually show us how good their H264 is, as we know compression differs from one to the next

 

Remember also that the cost of Hard Drives is not an issue anymore.

 

Bottom line is, I want to see some of this great quality we are hearing of, as so far all that i have seen is less superior in quality to older Mpeg4 or Mjpeg. If they want us to spend money, we cannot go on their word alone, least I do not.

 

PS. BlueRay, DVD, etc, totally different ballgame from CCTV DVRs, I dont do that kind of stuff and honestly i never use them.

[jharrell 0]

Anything that came before it, eg Mpeg4, MJpeg - size of video does not bother me anymore, quality does.

 

Ive yet to actually see any decent video from an H264 DVR .. there is ALOT of hype and marketing .. but no actual D1 images or video that show it is better than others. It is definitely more compressed and great for remote video, but other than that .. Anyone can SAY it is great .. but seeing is believing, and it seems not one DVR that uses H264 can find the time to provide some real samples yet.

 

Once again .. I await marketers to actually provide some video and images to actually show us how good their H264 is, as we know compression differs from one to the next

 

Remember also that the cost of Hard Drives is not an issue anymore.

 

Bottom line is, I want to see some of this great quality we are hearing of, as so far all that i have seen is less superior in quality to older Mpeg4 or Mjpeg. If they want us to spend money, we cannot go on their word alone, least I do not.

 

PS. BlueRay, DVD, etc, totally different ballgame from CCTV DVRs, I dont do that kind of stuff and honestly i never use them.

 

This is surprising to me as at a technical level I know h.264 to be superior to mpeg4 and mjpeg, where these h.264 DVR's set to the same bitrate as the the others, as it sounds like they where tuned to a much lower bitrate to conserve space or network bandwidth?

 

The only other cause would be these h.264 DVR where simply of lower quality perhaps cutting corners on the analog to digital conversion side of things causing a poorer quality result on the output, as all thing being equal mpeg4 part 10 (h.264) is simply a better way to compress video than mjpeg or mpeg4(part 2) but a DVR is much more than just the codec.

 

Justin

[normicgander 0]

H.264 is the ITUs version of MPEG 4 part 10 and is the same. Image/video quality is proportional to the encoding method (4:4:4, 4:2:2, 4:2:0 etc. which can reduce bit rate itself because the eye is not as sensitive to loss of color information), the allowable system bandwidth and the level of applied compression for either image (jpeg based) or video (mpeg based) methods. The bottom line IMO, is that DVR OEMS over compress to obtain longer record times because it's good for marketing. Some argue that JPEG2000 and other forms of Wavelet compression methods produce better still snapshots for forensic purposes. For streaming video applications perhaps MPEG is more optimal.

 

Most DVRs use 4:2:2 encoding which is why a 720 x 480 image is reduced in size. So how can it be D1? Then come the decimating compression- that "Excellent/Superior/Good/Normal/Why even bother" settings in the menu. But it's still D1 right? We need a industry standard for DVRs/IP video in TVL.

[rory 0]

 

This is surprising to me as at a technical level I know h.264 to be superior to mpeg4 and mjpeg, where these h.264 DVR's set to the same bitrate as the the others, as it sounds like they where tuned to a much lower bitrate to conserve space or network bandwidth?

 

The only other cause would be these h.264 DVR where simply of lower quality perhaps cutting corners on the analog to digital conversion side of things causing a poorer quality result on the output, as all thing being equal mpeg4 part 10 (h.264) is simply a better way to compress video than mjpeg or mpeg4(part 2) but a DVR is much more than just the codec.

 

Justin

 

No idea on what they are set to, I am going by the only demos available on certain H264 DVRs offered by resellers or OEMS. They are probably as you and normicgander mentioned, over compressed, lowered bitrates. They should at the least provide other optional compression methods though, but either way, I would still like to see some of the video or image samples, NOT in 320x240, from these amazing DVRs. Im a hard head to sell to though, quality is more important to me than any other feature (which is why I may be making more of a move towards MegaPixel when the price drops on those).

 

thanks for the info though and keep it coming

[normicgander 0]

Rory, this image was taken from an Avermedia SA6416 DVR, 720x480, highest quality with dynamic deinterlace filter. The vehicle was moving rather fast so image blurr is a factor. The DVR did a good job blending the 2 fields.

 

[jharrell 0]

Most DVRs use 4:2:2 encoding which is why a 720 x 480 image is reduced in size. So how can it be D1? Then come the decimating compression- that "Excellent/Superior/Good/Normal/Why even bother" settings in the menu. But it's still D1 right? We need a industry standard for DVRs/IP video in TVL.

 

Bottom line all the compression formats we are talking about are lossy, the colorspace compression is only the first step then on to quantization throwing away high frequency differences and in mpeg encoding only the differences between frames over time. They all throw away information from the original raw RGB 720x480 frames coming from the ADC's in the DVR none of them really internally hold on to the original pixels instead they recreate an approximation of the original frame through a series of mathematical steps while trying to achieve as little "perceptual" loss as possible which is simply a way of saying so we humans don't notice what was thrown away based on the way our eye works and our brains.

 

So how could you even standardize on TVL that would basically mean sticking only to a mathematically lossless compression format(like zip files) of which you might get 4:1 from the raw video at best and that would fill up any hard drive fast at what would that be about 62Mbs per channel.

 

I am surpsied some DVR's don't offer this or perhaps a raw record option for those who want the uber quality of no loss/raw video while sacrificing the space, although the raw number of bits would probably overwhelm your average DVR's disk bandwidth with 4 channels let alone 8 or 16.

 

It is funny in a way it's starting to sound like the audiophile guys who complain about mp3 compression vs raw PCM comming from CD's or worse yet vinyl, please don't start saying that h.264 lacks the warmth or depth of analog VHS CCTV .

 

Justin

[rory 0]

not to mention, first you need good video coming into the system .. Ive used Raw Video methods like VidCap with Bt drivers and no compression, and still the video was not very good in most cases .. so time as they then compress it .. even worse ...

[rory 0]

Rory, this image was taken from an Avermedia SA6416 DVR, 720x480, highest quality with dynamic deinterlace filter. The vehicle was moving rather fast so image blurr is a factor. The DVR did a good job blending the 2 fields.

 

yeah but its still low quality, even outside of the moving vehicle everything else is blurry.

 

Same with alot of Cards, Geo included.

I just want to know where this amazing H264 quality is that we hear so much about ..