Design Project ==> CCTV forum experts pls come inside

[koko1166 0]

Hi, this is my 1st post. And sorry for my English.

 

In our project we'll install around 200 Cameras mixed between fixed and PTZ ones and all are IP-based. These cameras will be located along the perimeter wall for a new housing compound project.

 

These cameras will be connected through industrial Ethernet switches to 2 distribution switches located at the main security operation center where the security staff will monitor 24/7 these cameras and other systems.

 

These 2 distributions switches are connected to Storage servers and the retention period is 60 days.

 

The above design is done by our contractor firm and I have many concerns. I'm approaching your forum seeking your professional knowledge and advise:

 

1. we are using H.264 compression technology ==> is it a good choice?

2. the environment conditions: temperature reaches 60C in summer and it's dusty most of the time. ==> is this paragraph correct (The new technology for outdoor cameras that have been in the field is the Nitrogen Pressurized Camera. It lowers the temperature of the camera as well as prevent of dust rebuild. It comes with a valve for maintenance to check the gas pressure from time to time.) ==> which vendor provide this type of cameras because we don't want to use window wiper.

 

3. The contractor said there is no need for DVR or NVR since he is using storage servers (that also include software for switching cameras and displaying them on screens in specific sequence). Is this correct?

 

4. which is better to use: DLP wall screen or large LCD screens for 24/7 monitoring.

 

5. What type of cameras you recommend if the distance between the cameras is around 100 meter?

 

Thanks

[survtech 0]

I can't comment on most of your post but I suggest using LCD monitors, rather than DLP. Most DLP TVs use a lamp whose life is typically 4,000 to 8,000 hours, That's only 6 months to a year in 7/24-hour operation. An LED DLP would have a longer life, though.

 

On the plus side for DLP, they often have a better field-of-view so the picture won't fade as much as the viewer goes off-center. They are also cheaper than large LCD.

[tomcctv 189]

This is going to be another good long running post.

whos idea is it to use Nitrogen Pressurized Cameras. because you dont want to use wipers. WIPERS are on the outside of the camera. so if you are in a enviroment that needs wipers you will still need them.

it might be better if you post your contractors plan. a 200 camera system needs very good planning. things like redwall sensors alarm inputs and whos software are you going to use. does it have a good cms software. like your monitor wall a great deal of thought needs to go into it. to watch 200 cameras you will need at least 16 monitors (12 cameras on each) then extra for alarm alerts (another 2 at least) and i would also use nvrs. having 200 cameras going back to a server in the security room does not make the system secure i would use a few nvrs around the complex (if the security office gets hit everything goes off) its going to be interesting reading comments on this post.

[Guest]

1. we are using H.264 compression technology ==> is it a good choice?

 

There are many types of H.264. Some are very good and some are rubbish. The most important factor is the time spent in setting the system up.

 

You need to state objectively what the quality of the live, recorded and downloaded image should be. How are you going to test?

 

 

2. the environment conditions: temperature reaches 60C in summer and it's dusty most of the time. ==> is this paragraph correct (The new technology for outdoor cameras that have been in the field is the Nitrogen Pressurized Camera. It lowers the temperature of the camera as well as prevent of dust rebuild. It comes with a valve for maintenance to check the gas pressure from time to time.) ==> which vendor provide this type of cameras because we don't want to use window wiper.

 

Pressurised camera housings are old technology. It works very well in dusty environments. It does not reduce temperature or, as already been stated has no effect on the requirement for a wiper (you should consider a brush, not a wiper blade).

 

We design systems for this type of environment and we do not specify pressurised housings any more as they are very expensive to maintain.

 

 

3. The contractor said there is no need for DVR or NVR since he is using storage servers (that also include software for switching cameras and displaying them on screens in specific sequence). Is this correct?

 

Yes, how good will depend on the software used.

 

 

4. which is better to use: DLP wall screen or large LCD screens for 24/7 monitoring.

 

Professional LCD displays (not TVs) or rear projection cubes are best

 

 

5. What type of cameras you recommend if the distance between the cameras is around 100 meter?

 

This is the wrong question. You need to establish and document the operational requirement stating what in detail you expect the system to do.

 

This document allows you confirm how you are going to operate and manage the system and gives the design parameters to the Contractor.

 

More importantly, this provides the key document to allow the commissioning and hand over of the system.

 

Simply you state what the system is to do (for example, recognise a test target image size displayed ‘y’ at ‘x’ distance in all lighting and weather conditions, raise the alarm, present the image to the operator and record the image at ‘z’ frames per second)

 

When it comes to hand over, you refer to the document and test. If the performance meets the documented requirement this is a pass, if it doesn’t the system fails and you hand it back to the Contractor.

 

A number of other issues need to be considered:

 

Light levels?

Air conditioning?

Security of power supplies?

Has a site risk assessment be undertaken?

Training of operators and managers

How is the system going to be maintained?

Spares availability?

How viable are the hardware and software suppliers/manufacturers, i.e. will the companies be trading over the life of the system (7-10 years) and if so will they confirm in writing that they will support their products and software over this period?

Cost and timescales for the bulk replacement of hard disks?

Transmission system, can we assume that fibre is being used, is the design secure against failure or attack?

 

Hope this helps

 

Ilkie

[koko1166 0]

I can't comment on most of your post but I suggest using LCD monitors, rather than DLP. Most DLP TVs use a lamp whose life is typically 4,000 to 8,000 hours, That's only 6 months to a year in 7/24-hour operation. An LED DLP would have a longer life, though.

 

On the plus side for DLP, they often have a better field-of-view so the picture won't fade as much as the viewer goes off-center. They are also cheaper than large LCD.

 

 

Thanks For you advise

[koko1166 0]

This is going to be another good long running post.

whos idea is it to use Nitrogen Pressurized Cameras. because you dont want to use wipers. WIPERS are on the outside of the camera. so if you are in a enviroment that needs wipers you will still need them.

Ok let me revise my question: In a dusty environment, do we need to use a wiper or there is another option?

it might be better if you post your contractors plan. a 200 camera system needs very good planning. things like redwall sensors alarm inputs and whos software are you going to use. does it have a good cms software. like your monitor wall a great deal of thought needs to go into it. to watch 200 cameras you will need at least 16 monitors (12 cameras on each) then extra for alarm alerts (another 2 at least) and i would also use nvrs. having 200 cameras going back to a server in the security room No, the servers will be in onther building but do we need to use DVRs OR NVRs beside the storage servers or not? does not make the system secure i would use a few nvrs around the complex (if the security office gets hit everything goes off) its going to be interesting reading comments on this post.

 

 

Thanks for your reply

[koko1166 0]

1. we are using H.264 compression technology ==> is it a good choice?

 

There are many types of H.264. Some are very good and some are rubbish. The most important factor is the time spent in setting the system up.

Let me be more specific: which compression type is preferred in this situation (MPEG-4 or MPEG-4 Part.10 (i.e. H.264))?

 

You need to state objectively what the quality of the live, recorded and downloaded image should be. How are you going to test?

 

 

2. the environment conditions: temperature reaches 60C in summer and it's dusty most of the time. ==> is this paragraph correct (The new technology for outdoor cameras that have been in the field is the Nitrogen Pressurized Camera. It lowers the temperature of the camera as well as prevent of dust rebuild. It comes with a valve for maintenance to check the gas pressure from time to time.) ==> which vendor provide this type of cameras because we don't want to use window wiper.

 

Pressurised camera housings are old technology. It works very well in dusty environments. It does not reduce temperature or, as already been stated has no effect on the requirement for a wiper (you should consider a brush, not a wiper blade). Is there other alternative? because it will be difficult to clean 200 cameras espically hte environmnt is very dusty.

 

We design systems for this type of environment and we do not specify pressurised housings any more as they are very expensive to maintain. So what do you specify?

 

 

3. The contractor said there is no need for DVR or NVR since he is using storage servers (that also include software for switching cameras and displaying them on screens in specific sequence). Is this correct?

 

Yes, how good will depend on the software used. Please advise me from your experince how you can deal with 200 IP based cameras?

 

4. which is better to use: DLP wall screen or large LCD screens for 24/7 monitoring.

 

Professional LCD displays (not TVs) or rear projection cubes are best can you specify the LCD product?

 

 

5. What type of cameras you recommend if the distance between the cameras is around 100 meter?

 

This is the wrong question. (sorry for this question. let me revise it: which vendor you recommend to be used in this situation (i.e. dust, 200 IP-based cameras, fully IP network, PoE..)? You need to establish and document the operational requirement stating what in detail you expect the system to do.

 

This document allows you confirm how you are going to operate and manage the system and gives the design parameters to the Contractor.

 

More importantly, this provides the key document to allow the commissioning and hand over of the system.

 

Simply you state what the system is to do (for example, recognise a test target image size displayed ‘y’ at ‘x’ distance in all lighting and weather conditions, raise the alarm, present the image to the operator and record the image at ‘z’ frames per second)

 

When it comes to hand over, you refer to the document and test. If the performance meets the documented requirement this is a pass, if it doesn’t the system fails and you hand it back to the Contractor.

 

A number of other issues need to be considered:

 

Light levels?

Air conditioning?

Security of power supplies?

Has a site risk assessment be undertaken?

Training of operators and managers

How is the system going to be maintained?

Spares availability?

How viable are the hardware and software suppliers/manufacturers, i.e. will the companies be trading over the life of the system (7-10 years) and if so will they confirm in writing that they will support their products and software over this period?

Cost and timescales for the bulk replacement of hard disks?

Transmission system, can we assume that fibre is being used, is the design secure against failure or attack?

 

Hope this helps

 

Ilkie

 

Thanks a lot

[spooner 0]

watch your bandwidth is all i can say. if these switches will be connected to anything else then you need to get some layer 2 switches. i would stick with the H.264 since it will be dramatically less on your bandwidth consumption. Ex:

 

200 1.3MP h.264 w/ 30% motion in 24 hours at 8fps

252 Mbps

 

200 1.3MP MJPEG w/ 30% motion in 24 hours at 8fps

1.5 Gps (1500 Mbps)

 

I hope you are running some gig switches and pray that notiong moves on all those cameras at once.