in reply to: NO PIRATED / CLONED CARDS ALLOWED

[Pearwood 0]

Hi Rory,

 

It's your forum so you make the rules but I disagree with your post.

 

1st: If somebody, I am like that, has a security problem it is totally nomal to check on Ebay and buy cheap hardware. There is freeeware and cheap software available to make that run. If a card won't do as promised it is nothing more than logical to check on a forum, yours is called CCTVforum so it would be one of the first to look. Mind you: nothing intentionally illegal has been done yet.

 

2nd: Why are these cards pirated in the first place? Because the peaple you consider legitemit ask rediculous prices for there software. Then:

 

3rd: hardware suppliers protect these software dealers by not selling to end users. In some countries the practice of coupled sale is forbidden.

4th: The limited supply of legal good working cards makes for very little choice in cheap or free software - why write software that virtually nobody can use?

 

5rd: Your comparison with microsoft isn't straight. MS is selling software ... at least that's what peaple say, they are actually selling a user agreement. This is not nice in the first place so I would not take MS as an example of how it should be done. Just as importantly: they don't sell software and hardware in one package.

 

As far as I can see this, as a simple newby: legitemit sellers/manufacturers are the big crooks, cheap hardware makers are the little ones. But for people on a limited budget with a security problem they are like Robin Hood.

 

To cut a long story short: If a PCB with a few cheap, sometimes antique, 848-like chips (manufacturing cost of total PCBless than $50ct) can only be bought for $300-1000+ then don't (only) blame the "pirates" or the buyers of this cheap stuff. And yes-I would give these people some support.

 

Thanks for the forum anyway, nice to see some info on this stuff,

regards,

Pete

[tomcctv 187]

Hi Rory,

 

It's your forum so you make the rules but I disagree with your post.

 

1st: If somebody, I am like that, has a security problem it is totally nomal to check on Ebay and buy cheap hardware. There is freeeware and cheap software available to make that run. If a card won't do as promised it is nothing more than logical to check on a forum, yours is called CCTVforum so it would be one of the first to look. Mind you: nothing intentionally illegal has been done yet.

 

2nd: Why are these cards pirated in the first place? Because the peaple you consider legitemit ask rediculous prices for there software. Then:

 

3rd: hardware suppliers protect these software dealers by not selling to end users. In some countries the practice of coupled sale is forbidden.

4th: The limited supply of legal good working cards makes for very little choice in cheap or free software - why write software that virtually nobody can use?

 

5rd: Your comparison with microsoft isn't straight. MS is selling software ... at least that's what peaple say, they are actually selling a user agreement. This is not nice in the first place so I would not take MS as an example of how it should be done. Just as importantly: they don't sell software and hardware in one package.

 

As far as I can see this, as a simple newby: legitemit sellers/manufacturers are the big crooks, cheap hardware makers are the little ones. But for people on a limited budget with a security problem they are like Robin Hood.

 

To cut a long story short: If a PCB with a few cheap, sometimes antique, 848-like chips (manufacturing cost of total PCBless than $50ct) can only be bought for $300-1000+ then don't (only) blame the "pirates" or the buyers of this cheap stuff. And yes-I would give these people some support.

 

Thanks for the forum anyway, nice to see some info on this stuff,

regards,

Pete

 

pirated or cloned cards cause problems ...... first you have no support at all. how are you going to look after your customers if the card in the first place is crap ............ plus let me ask you ............ do you sell your cloned card systems cheap ... i bet you dont and not only that you are not a pro at your work you want to make money by selling crap

[Birdman Adam 0]

The problem with clones is that the actual schematic of the card has been copied, then manufactured by cutting corners and choosing the cheapest components available. It kind of like gambling, because its not guaranteed.

 

A genuine card is guaranteed to work perfectly. If it doesn't, return it and get another! You can't usually do that with a clone.

[Pearwood 0]

that's both crap,

 

Tom, I don't sell anything - I just want to buy a really simple card, which should be extremely cheap due to the components count and price of the componts used, then set it up with freely or cheaply available software.

Adam, did you chck the PCB? there's nothing to copy, its just a few straight lines, one or a few video chips a controller chip and a condenser and a resistor or 2. There is no copyright on something like that.

 

Your replies just underline the original post: the consumer is being cheated and you collaborate.

[Birdman Adam 0]

There is a copyright and probably a patent on the exact connection of everything on those cards.

 

When the copiers reproduce them they choose the cheapest components. Like substituting a 1/4 watt resistor for an 1/8 watt one. Yea it will work, but once someone uses it in a computer that runs too warm, the resistor pops and they wonder what happened.

 

Or using cheaper electrolytic capacitors that have a flawed design and pop in a year. I can't tell you how many things I've fixed because those darn caps keep popping!

 

When someone buys a genuine card, they are paying extra for the properly engineered design that won't do odd things.

[tomcctv 187]

that's both crap,

 

Tom, I don't sell anything - I just want to buy a really simple card, which should be extremely cheap due to the components count and price of the componts used, then set it up with freely or cheaply available software.

Adam, did you chck the PCB? there's nothing to copy, its just a few straight lines, one or a few video chips a controller chip and a condenser and a resistor or 2. There is no copyright on something like that.

 

Your replies just underline the original post: the consumer is being cheated and you collaborate.

 

 

 

well go on then ebay is a good place for you to start. if thats what you want to do. i dont think you understand cctv. or you would not have started this post. it sounds like you want to buy crap and turn it into a top end. and that cant happen

[Pearwood 0]

caps rarely pop, usually only in the PSU - never seen it on any videocard. the ones on my DVR seem overrated in the first place. there is no copyright on soldering a few cheap 7130 or 848 chips on a PCB. I cought my neighbor doing damage 3 times and another one 2 times so my cctv works and since I put it together I know my stuff.

but it's beside the point: calling manufacturers that solder a chip in the proper configuration on a pcb a copier is nonsense. this stuff, both hardware and software, should not be so redicully expensive and one should be able to but it separately in a simple manner without being called illegal, amateuristic or whatever. cctv isn't rocketscience - these prices and eliteness is absurt, nothing personal ofcourse.

[Soundy 1]

2nd: Why are these cards pirated in the first place? Because the peaple you consider legitemit ask rediculous prices for there software.

 

There seems to be a bit of a disconnect here.

 

Do you have a job, Pearwood? Do you do work for someone, to make them money? Do you expect to get paid for the work you do?

 

Tell us, where do you think this software comes from? Do you figure that it writes itself? Maybe you think that some guy sits down in his basement and bangs it out in an hour or two? That hundreds of thousands of lines of code used to implement dozens of features and complex video processing just magically appear?

 

Developing the software itself takes hundreds of hours from several software coders... hundreds of hours more of testing to ensure it works on a wide variety of hardware... hundreds more of debugging. All these guys doing that work want to get paid for their time.

 

Then someone else has the task of selling that software, making sure people will choose it instead of something else. They want to be paid for their time.

 

And when Joe Consumer buys the package and installs it on his home PC and has problems because he also games on that box, or has under-spec hardware, or is confused about some of the settings, or because he just doesn't know what he's doing... he's going to want to phone up someone at the company and get some help, and those people answering the phones want to get paid as well.

 

And then as time goes on and newer hardware becomes available, and competitors add more features and abilities, this company needs to keep up with that if they want to keep selling, so the coders and testers and debuggers have to keep working away... and keep getting paid.

 

So where do you think this money comes from, for these people who put in all the time to CREATE this software? It's not coming from your fleaBay vendors, who take that completed software and hack it to work with their copied cards... they spend maybe a couple of days figuring out how to work around the protection, then just sit back and rake in the money. They don't test it, and they won't support it... but they'll be happy to take your money.

 

And BTW, the others are right: the hardware itself IS protected by patents AND copyrights. The boards are more than "just a few lines" - they actually have several layers of lines, interconnecting the DOZENS of pins on those chips, and doing so in just the right way to make everything work properly. Designing those lines also took some guys hundreds of hours - you don't just buy the chips, glue them to the board, connect a few random dots with a Sharpie, and voila, there's your card. Your pirates can also sell those cheap, because again, they didn't do any of the work to actually produce them.

 

But then if it's really that easy, why do you worry about fleaBay cards? Why don't you just make your own systems? Surely with a soldering iron and a few rudimentary parts, you could sit down at your kitchen table and just knock these things out in a few days? Couple more days to write the software, and then you have your own product to sell? Piece of cake, right? Think of the money you could make, jacking up the prices of something that took you a week to build.

 

In any case, when it comes down to the rules of the board, they don't have anything to do with protecting the manufacturers, since I'm sure everyone here would love it if this stuff was cheaper, too... it has entirely to do with the fact that pirated software and cloned cards are ILLEGAL under copyright and patent laws, and allowing the members to support them could leave the board's owners open to legal action. Plain and simple.

[rory 0]

Hi Rory,

 

It's your forum so you make the rules but I disagree with your post.

 

 

Welcome to the forum.

However it is not MY forum, I am just a moderator here, and I dont make the rules.

 

1st: If somebody, I am like that, has a security problem it is totally nomal to check on Ebay and buy cheap hardware. There is freeeware and cheap software available to make that run. If a card won't do as promised it is nothing more than logical to check on a forum, yours is called CCTVforum so it would be one of the first to look. Mind you: nothing intentionally illegal has been done yet.

Nobody here ever mentioned it is illegal to look on Ebay.

 

2nd: Why are these cards pirated in the first place? Because the peaple you consider legitemit ask rediculous prices for there software. Then:

Why is ANYTHING pirated? Because the criminals want to make money from others hard work.

Sure we would like to buy cheaper cards, I have customers also, and they cant afford things like Geovision most of the time. But hey, there are other brands that ARE cheaper, just buy them instead. You wont find the features of say Geovision, but then if you want all those additional features, surely you will pay for it, right? Software takes alot of time to develop and test properly, you pay for that time.

 

3rd: hardware suppliers protect these software dealers by not selling to end users. In some countries the practice of coupled sale is forbidden.

Incorrect - you can also buy the original card, but it will only come with an SDK and then you will have to develop your own software for it. Check out Comart and UDP Tech for example. Ofcourse one needs to have a company and they tend to only sell in bulk, but check out Avermedia and others for basic capture cards that can use 3rd party software.

 

4th: The limited supply of legal good working cards makes for very little choice in cheap or free software - why write software that virtually nobody can use?

Once again, you are paying for the software. If you were to go from the bottom up and start with the most basic free AMCAP type software, then goto some $20 software, then go up and up until you reach the cost of something like Vigil or Geovision or Video Insight, you will know the difference is huge.

 

5rd: Your comparison with microsoft isn't straight. MS is selling software ... at least that's what peaple say, they are actually selling a user agreement. This is not nice in the first place so I would not take MS as an example of how it should be done. Just as importantly: they don't sell software and hardware in one package.

The comparison is close enough, Geovision for example IS selling software, they ARE software developers. Perhaps MS dont sell hardware and software in one package, but that doesnt mean they dont have major shares in most of the big name hardware companies, such as Intel. However, CCTV is nowhere on the same level as the sales that MS gets, and my comparison was geared towards the hacking and cracking of the software versus the business model.

 

As far as I can see this, as a simple newby: legitemit sellers/manufacturers are the big crooks, cheap hardware makers are the little ones. But for people on a limited budget with a security problem they are like Robin Hood.

As mentioned before, there are cheaper systems.

 

The people that clone and sell those more expensive systems ARE the crooks, they are advertising Geovision, Kodicom, etc, cards, but those are not the actual cards, the drivers have been hacked, and the software is older versions. Basically they know the names are big, they realize they can get over on some people and those people will "think" those are the actual cards and latest software. They are ripping off the consumer and the manufacturers and the software developers of the real product. The same people sell cheaper cards with no name and their own software, do why not buy that instead? Because you want the Geovision name? Then buy the real thing.

 

To cut a long story short: If a PCB with a few cheap, sometimes antique, 848-like chips (manufacturing cost of total PCBless than $50ct) can only be bought for $300-1000+ then don't (only) blame the "pirates" or the buyers of this cheap stuff. And yes-I would give these people some support.

 

As mentioned one is paying for the software. These pirates not only make cheap copies of the hardware, they copy the software, modify it, and sell it as the real thing. They are criminals and anyone that supports them knowing this are essentially criminals also.

 

So lets recap, if one wants to buy Geovision and others like it, then buy the real thing, if one does not and they end up with problems, dont come here looking for help, we cant help, the problems are beyond anything we can do, it is hacked and cracked and goodness knows what else, so one is on their own then. Additionally due to copyright and anti piracy laws the forum cannot allow those type of posts. If one cannot afford the real thing, then simply look at something that costs less, but ofcourse that is legit. There are many out there, for example CNB have cards for much less, made in Korea, there are cards on sites like BlueCherry, there are TONS of sources out there. But people buy the cloned systems because in general they are big names and they think they are getting the same thing as if they bought the real one, when infact they are not.

[tomcctv 187]

Pearwood. you get what you pay for ............. can i interest you in this

 

[tomcctv 187]

yes it started off as one of these ......$2000 toyota MR2

 

[destro_23 0]

cloned cards are basically stolen/illegal designs. Thus the rule for cloned cards on this board.

 

it's very simple.

 

along with the TONS and TONS of people that have bought these cheap/clones on ebay(yea i have bought 2 of them and have been 100% screwed on 1) "loose" the install cd and then can't figure out how to make it work... they will flood this message board with do you have drivers to this board? i see it has a philips chip on it? and so on... it's really a waist of time.. an amazing avermedia NV5000 can be found for under 300$ and has full iPhone, blackberry, IP camera support. And guess what.. amazing and easy to find software!!!

 

either way.. the rule is there as to keep the board clean of ebay cards that will only work with origional CD.. no updates.. and also read first sentence again.