Need advice for a good home system

[bluegill 0]

Hi everyone. I have been reading/researching for a couple of weeks now. Trying to decide what I need to set up a system for my home. I need a 16 channel system with about 10 of the cameras being outdoor day/night. I want to wind up with a very good system, but am having trouble figuring out what products are good and what isn't. I am open to either a stand alone or a pc based, analog or ip. I just want to end up with a system that performs well. I don't have a budget set in stone, but would like to keep it around 5-7k. I will be doing all the install myself and am not interested in hiring a "pro". I am very particular when it comes to drilling holes and running wires in my home. It saves me and the installers alot of headaches if I just do these kind of things on my own. Any advice you can give me would be very much appreciated. Thanks in advance.

[thorsurveillance 0]

Hey bluegill if you want my opinion I would advise you go go with a standalone system since you are just starting out; but just make sure you get one that records at a decent resolution at least D1. This way you wont be disappointed with the video quality. Then just purchase some decent day/night outdoor cameras with infrared that has a decent range of IR depending on how far you need to see in darkness. Other thing I would suggest is purchase cameras that have a varifocal lens with something decent in the range of mm you can adjust at. You seem to have a decent budget for yourself so I'd be interested in what your final install consists of. Hope this helps.

[bluegill 0]

Hey bluegill if you want my opinion I would advise you go go with a standalone system since you are just starting out; but just make sure you get one that records at a decent resolution at least D1. This way you wont be disappointed with the video quality. Then just purchase some decent day/night outdoor cameras with infrared that has a decent range of IR depending on how far you need to see in darkness. Other thing I would suggest is purchase cameras that have a varifocal lens with something decent in the range of mm you can adjust at. You seem to have a decent budget for yourself so I'd be interested in what your final install consists of. Hope this helps.

 

Thanks for the input thorsurveillance, Have a question concerning the "decent resolution at least D1". Am I going to find anything that does better than 7fps at D1 per channel on a 16 channel system, or is this about the max for standalones in my price range?

[Birdman Adam 0]

I hear ya on wanting to set it up just how you want it!

 

I'm also a DIY, I'm always fiddling with my system, testing out things, setting up new stuff, its like a hobby now.

 

Since this will be your first system, I would go with a nice standalone DVR. I went the hard route, using Ubuntu and open-source DVR software called ZoneMinder. It works great, but can take a while to set up. Standalone is a lot easier!!!

 

D1 refers to the resolution of the image that is captured by the DVR, usually at 720x480 pixels. I would be sure your DVR records D1 on ALL channels, with at least 5+FPS on ALL channels. Remember, this is CCTV, not a movie theater - You don't need 30FPS on each channel. 7FPS is great, just about perfect balance between frames per second and storage needed.

 

Again, since this is your first, I second the idea on getting cameras with vari-focal lenses. They are easy to use. An example may be that many VF lenses are 2.8-10.5mm. This allows an adjustment from almost 100 degrees wide view to a 45 degrees view. Very versatile!

 

I would stay away from IR, and instead install outdoor flood lights, either motion-detect or turned on at night-time. For outdoors, I got True-Day-Night cameras with an IR cut filter. Basically, at night they turn to black/white to see a lot better, than a normal color only camera. Ideal for outdoors, and can see almost perfect with a full moon, even better with minimal flood-light help!

 

Stay away from cheap cameras with 1/4" sensors, 1/3" is great!

[Bean00 0]

Thanks for the input thorsurveillance, Have a question concerning the "decent resolution at least D1". Am I going to find anything that does better than 7fps at D1 per channel on a 16 channel system, or is this about the max for standalones in my price range?

 

http://www.panasonic.com/business/security/demos/PSS-recording-rates.html

 

D1@30FPS Recorders Generally cost about 3x as much as a 30@CIF / 7@D1 recorders. Take a look at the above link, select 7.5FPS vs 30FPS, and decide for yourself whether it's worth it.

[mike_va 0]

What I have done is a mix of megapixel IP and video servers/used cameras and Vitamin D software (love it and reliable, limits to 10fps).

 

Axis P1344/P3344 used or even new occasionally on ebay ~ $400

 

Axis 241Q new occasionally ~ $400 ebay, $350 used. 241S/243 around $200 ea.

 

Vitamin D $200 full license

 

B&W cams sell cheap on ebay $2 ea, with good lux ratings 600TVL (get brand names) and varifocal lenses show up pretty reasonable also.

 

So for $650-1500 you can get something that stomps a Lorex/Qsee/etc. Second the idea re motion floods.

[bpzle 0]

16 cameras for residential?? That's a lot of cameras! Your neighbors are going to think you've broke crazy! Lol

 

May I ask you to help paint a picture of what all you're trying to cover? Maybe even a quick and cheasy MS paint drawing might help us make suggestions on placement/ equipment selection...

 

$5-7k is a pretty good budget for a residential job... especially for a DIY job... LOTS of options... but also lots of ways to waste that budget if you're a rookie to CCTV. Standalone dvr? Blah! For that budget why not have HD??

[bpzle 0]

Oh.... and just for fun, check this out:

 

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=23923

 

What type of DIYer are YOU?

[mike_va 0]

Wow, I did not see the 5-7K for the budget, you can get some nice HD cameras...I would not even mess around with analog cameras if you have that budget.

[bluegill 0]

Wow, lots of good information. Thanks for link comparing frame rates. That helps a lot.

bpzle, I know 16 channels sounds like a lot of cameras, but I've got a 4 acre property with about a one acre lake. The house is roughly 3000sq ft, and also have a garage about the same size. As I said I'm looking at about 10 cameras to cover the exterior doors, driveway, and backyard. I know the cameras covering the back yard are not going to really help identify someone, but I still want to be able to see what's going on there when I'm not around. I typically am on the road chasing Nascar about 15 weekends a year and want to be able to see what's happening while I'm away. Oh, and I saw the DIY thread, I had to pick type D.

If my budget is to big, I don't have to spend it all. Although at the end of the day I want a reliable system that has good picture quality.

Another question about standalones compared to PC based. Say I am out of town and the electricity goes off for a period of time. When to power comes back on will a standalone boot back up on it's own? Or would someone have to turn it back on like a normal PC. Can a PC based system be configured to reboot on it's own? I've never had a PC that would, but I can see how that would be useful in this situation. Once again, thanks for the help everyone.

[tomcctv 190]

Hi. yes most standalones will restart after power cut. for your needs i would go standalone than pc. have a look at this unit. its also hybrid http://www.avermedia.com/AVerDiGi/Product/Detail.aspx?id=253

[bpzle 0]

Ahhh... it all makes perfect sense now!

 

4 acres? I'm jealous! Around here one could open any window in the house and pee onto their neighbor's house! Lol

 

Wow... I don't think I get to say this often, but I think your budget may be too steep for all you're looking for. Assuming you don't have to go ptp wireless to cover that large area or need PTZ to check in on livestock or something...

 

I'd be happy to answer whatever questions you have.

 

Feel free to PM me and I'd be glad to help/ chat about your neat project.

[bluegill 0]

Hi. yes most standalones will restart after power cut. for your needs i would go standalone than pc. have a look at this unit. its also hybrid http://www.avermedia.com/AVerDiGi/Product/Detail.aspx?id=253

That seems to be a pretty decent unit. If I'm understanding everything correctly it records 240fps at full D1(720x480). I does lack HDMI out, and I can't seem to find the max resolution it will display. I guess 1920x1080 out is not really needed, but what be nice to have. Especially if I went with some HD cameras in the future.

Can anyone recommend any other units as good or even better than the Avermedia? Maybe with HDMI out and a full 480fps at D1, not 4CIF. I looked at the Samsung SRD-1670, which claims to record at 480fps at 4CIF(704x480). I can see from the link above that compares frame rates that 30fps per channel at full D1 may be overkill, but I just want to weigh all my options before I make a decision. I would think the unit should last for several years and would like to stay as close to the top of the technology as I can, but still stay within reason on the cost.

[bpzle 0]

Samsung eh? They sure have that fit and finish down! That thing would look AWESOME in a home theater rack....

 

Here's the problem I have with Samsung:

 

They have a great business model. Great name, great brand, great products. However, they also don't make a lot of what they sell... found that out here recently just by accident by comparing notes with a "Samsung" customer here on the forum. Turns out the "off brand" units I have in stock are 1/4 of the price of what he paid and are nearly identical. Not as slick a looking chassis but same software, EVERYTHING... Samsung is a big company. They didn't make that DVR, they saw a good product and decided to slap their name on it.

 

I'll see if I can find that thread...

 

 

For the price of a Samsung DVR you could have a nice hybrid unit like that Avermedia... Hybrids allow you to use IP cams in the future. That's great because right now IP cams are still pretty pricey for average homeowner... but like anything else, just sit back and wait. Pretty soon you'll probably be able to get 5mp IP cams in blister packs down at Costco.

 

Also, if you want hybrid... know that standalone units will have limits compared to have PC based.

 

Lots of pluses and minuses... no doubt you'll hear a lot of sales pitches and opinions when you start looking for this stuff.

[tomcctv 190]

Hi. yes most standalones will restart after power cut. for your needs i would go standalone than pc. have a look at this unit. its also hybrid http://www.avermedia.com/AVerDiGi/Product/Detail.aspx?id=253

That seems to be a pretty decent unit. If I'm understanding everything correctly it records 240fps at full D1(720x480). I does lack HDMI out, and I can't seem to find the max resolution it will display. I guess 1920x1080 out is not really needed, but what be nice to have. Especially if I went with some HD cameras in the future.

Can anyone recommend any other units as good or even better than the Avermedia? Maybe with HDMI out and a full 480fps at D1, not 4CIF. I looked at the Samsung SRD-1670, which claims to record at 480fps at 4CIF(704x480). I can see from the link above that compares frame rates that 30fps per channel at full D1 may be overkill, but I just want to weigh all my options before I make a decision. I would think the unit should last for several years and would like to stay as close to the top of the technology as I can, but still stay within reason on the cost.

 

 

 

the samsung SRD-1670 is no were near the aver spec. this is the problem with samsung it is sold by many companys and each will alter the spec even when you google the SRD-1670 you will see some companys sell it as a true D1 and even one calls it a high def dvr. everone sells it but have differant specs to make it look good.

 

like were you have got your information from. you say its a 480 fps at 4cif it true recording is 240fps.

 

 

samsung spec SRD-1670 NTCS 480 ips is not the same as fps you have to half anything that says ips to give you to true fps. so the true spec of the samsung = http://www.sourcesecurity.com/docs/fullspec/20100610_0_20100610SRD-1670_DataSheet_E.pdf

 

 

and the price for the samsung is stupid compaired to the avermedia listed in the last post.

 

if you are looking for full true D1 at 30 fps on each channel then you are going to have to look at Hardware Compression System and not Software Compression. and looking at the price for the samsung its the same as the avermedia sa9000 pro which is a hardware compression dvr and also the http://www.averusa.com/surveillance/productdetail.aspx?id=88

[bpzle 0]

+1 tom!

 

 

 

However, if the Samsung name is what you want.... I'd be happy to whip out the label maker for one of my budget units and mark it up 400%.

 

Seriously... this isn't just similar spec sheets... its the EXACT same thing.

 

Speaking of spec sheets... it takes even a "professional" years to perfect their ability to read between the BS lines on those things.

 

Spec sheets usually don't have line items for things like ease of use, simplicity of a GUI, stability of the software, what can cause system crashes, if a bug is discovered post production: will the manufacturfer do anything about it? can availible FPS be allocated however you want accross all channels?, reliability, quality control, fit and finish, all the little stupid annoyances one learns to hate after using something for a few weeks.

 

THAT's what spec sheets need.

[bluegill 0]

Thanks to both of you for the very informative answers. I'm not stuck on any name brand or looks. I was just surfing around the net trying to find others in the ballpark with the Avermedia. The Samy just "looked" to be close. I really could not care less what the unit looks like, it will most likely be hidden away anyway. I was even wondering what the difference between ips and fps when I saw that in the specs of a lot of the systems offered out there. That's why I posted here though, because I am admittedly a "D type DIY" and would like to minimize the mistakes before I purchase something.

Still not stuck on standalone either. I would think I could use a UPS system to get around the power outage issue, and could see where a UPS would be a plus to either PC or standalone. I would consider myself above average when it comes to PC setup and building. By no means do I claim to be a pro, but I am fairly confident I could setup a PC based system and get it working. I'm sure I'd have to learn a few new things along the way, but that's not all bad either.

Once again, thanks to everyone for your help.

[bpzle 0]

Lol thanks for taking that all with a grain of salt and humor... Believe me, you're not the first person to look at equipment like that... Samsung's stock value is proof.

[Bean00 0]

like were you have got your information from. you say its a 480 fps at 4cif it true recording is 240fps.

 

samsung spec SRD-1670 NTCS 480 ips is not the same as fps you have to half anything that says ips to give you to true fps.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but it's it:

 

IPS(Images per Second) = PPS(Pictures per Second) = FPS(Frames per Second.).

 

But then there is also Fields Per Second(also known as FPS) that = 2 Fields to a Frame(picture/image/frame).

 

It's been a couple years since I've had to explain this(thank you for finally going away VCRs!) and I might be a little jumbled up, but I'm pretty sure this is accurate.

 

And unless multiple Samsung Reps have lied to me(a possibility, but doubtful), that is a 480FPS @ D1 unit.

 

On a side note: The Samsung will not give you IP/HD recording capability and the Aver will.

[tomcctv 190]

like were you have got your information from. you say its a 480 fps at 4cif it true recording is 240fps.

 

samsung spec SRD-1670 NTCS 480 ips is not the same as fps you have to half anything that says ips to give you to true fps.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but it's it:

 

IPS(Images per Second) = PPS(Pictures per Second) = FPS(Frames per Second.).

But then there is also Fields Per Second(also known as FPS) that = 2 Fields to a Frame(picture/image/frame).

 

It's been a couple years since I've had to explain this(thank you for finally going away VCRs!) and I might be a little jumbled up, but I'm pretty sure this is accurate.

 

And unless multiple Samsung Reps have lied to me(a possibility, but doubtful), that is a 480FPS @ D1 unit.

 

 

well you need to beat the rep up. the link posted is from there site (Samsung) and its clear IPS.

 

 

IPS means images per second ..... also known as FPS fields per second. both of which are used to make a spec of a dvr look good.

 

and then you have true FPS frames per second.

Some manufacturers use different expressions when identifying the speed capabilities of their product. It will become increasingly apparent why this is misleading.

 

● Thirty (30) “frames-per-second”(abbreviated as “fps”) is “real-time,” ”real-motion” video in the NTSC (North America) video standard.

 

● Twenty-five (25) “frames-per-second”(abbreviated as “fps”) is “real-time,” ”real-motion” video in the PAL (International) standard.

 

This is not to be confused with “fields-per-second” (also abbreviated as “fps”). Unfortunately, two (2) fields equal one (1) frame. So when a manufacturer states “30 fps” on their literature are they talking fields or frames? Are they talking about each channel of video or total capacity of the system? Are they talking about the system limitation or the operating capability?

[Bean00 0]

Well, can't find anything stating one way or another - except a couple wikipedia references that are extremely vague - so I'll take your word for it. You already proved me dramatically wrong once this month I don't think I could take it twice

 

And I think the rep said it did because he thought they were interchangable terms too.

 

I KNOW my D1 box is 30 Frames @ D1 so no issue for me

[tomcctv 190]

Well, can't find anything stating one way or another - except a couple wikipedia references that are extremely vague - so I'll take your word for it. You already proved me dramatically wrong once this month I don't think I could take it twice

 

And I think the rep said it did because he thought they were interchangable terms too.

 

I KNOW my D1 box is 30 Frames @ D1 so no issue for me

 

 

Hi chris. no one is wrong. we all learn on here.

 

http://hs-tcl.com/400fps.html

 

 

just sent you a pm i need help .