Please Critique my CCTV Design

[shimokita 0]

Greetings. New member here.

 

By way of introduction…I have just joined this forum as it was popping-up in several searches when mining for information.

 

I am an Asia-based engineer. I trained with GPO Telephones, now British Telecom - (we trained at Bletchley Park, which was owned by the GPO back then). I worked as an sound engineer in several London studios, before re-locating to Asia 20-odd years ago. I migrated into installing A/V systems into pubs, clubs and bars, etc.

 

I recently installed a audio-visual system in a resort hotel and the client asked if I could install a security camera system throughout the ground floor of the hotel. This would be my first attempt at cctv work, and after hitting the books and taking the clients instructions, I came up with the following design. I guess there are some glaring mistakes and I would be grateful if the more experienced members would critique it for me.

 

A picture paints a 1000 words, and I think I have included all the relevant equipment, cable lengths, etc., there. Suffice to say, it's all indoor, over one floor. The bar gets packed at night. Reception open 24/7.

 

Areas of concern - client wants to views cams remotely on Macs, iPad - possible? In the Brasserie, I'm planning one CAT5 pair to power each cam. Is that problematic current/voltage-drop-wise?

 

I'm grateful for any other tip and guidance.

 

Cheers.

[justincameras 0]

Greetings. New member here.

 

By way of introduction…I have just joined this forum as it was popping-up in several searches when mining for information.

 

I am an Asia-based engineer. I trained with GPO Telephones, now British Telecom - (we trained at Bletchley Park, which was owned by the GPO back then). I worked as an sound engineer in several London studios, before re-locating to Asia 20-odd years ago. I migrated into installing A/V systems into pubs, clubs and bars, etc.

 

I recently installed a audio-visual system in a resort hotel and the client asked if I could install a security camera system throughout the ground floor of the hotel. This would be my first attempt at cctv work, and after hitting the books and taking the clients instructions, I came up with the following design. I guess there are some glaring mistakes and I would be grateful if the more experienced members would critique it for me.

 

A picture paints a 1000 words, and I think I have included all the relevant equipment, cable lengths, etc., there. Suffice to say, it's all indoor, over one floor. The bar gets packed at night. Reception open 24/7.

 

Areas of concern - client wants to views cams remotely on Macs, iPad - possible? In the Brasserie, I'm planning one CAT5 pair to power each cam. Is that problematic current/voltage-drop-wise?

 

I'm grateful for any other tip and guidance.

 

Cheers.

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

The 2 camera balun receiver is powered. I'm assuming the transmitting balun is too?

I would also make sure the 4 camera baluns are too.

 

I would also change to 24 volts AC if you have dual voltage cameras. 12 volt cameras for me have always had problems with induction from lights and control voltages. You can also get a variable power supply for voltage drops. I have never used a dahua anything so I know not about these.

 

I might even use Cat6 on the long run.

 

You also need to know if the ceiling is above acoustical tile or hardpan and if it is a plenum rated ceiling. Match the cable to the environment.

 

One more thing, I would definitely point cameras so they watch each other to prevent vandalism/theft.

[shimokita 0]

The 2 camera balun receiver is powered. I'm assuming the transmitting balun is too?

I would also make sure the 4 camera baluns are too.

 

I would also change to 24 volts AC if you have dual voltage cameras. 12 volt cameras for me have always had problems with induction from lights and control voltages. You can also get a variable power supply for voltage drops. I have never used a dahua anything so I know not about these.

 

I might even use Cat6 on the long run.

 

You also need to know if the ceiling is above acoustical tile or hardpan and if it is a plenum rated ceiling. Match the cable to the environment.

 

One more thing, I would definitely point cameras so they watch each other to prevent vandalism/theft.

 

Thanks for taking the trouble to reply. Actually, the 2 cam balun I'm thinking would be passive - the power is for the cameras (bad drawing!). A 24VAC supply is a good idea - less current down the UTP and less interference. Can you recommend any good 24VAC cameras? Cat6 here is only marginally more expensive than CAT5e, so will definately take that on board. The bar cameras I think I'll use active baluns, since there is going to be a dedicated supply up in the void anyway. If I use actives, do they have to be active at both ends, or can you mix 'n' match active & passives?

 

Thanks again. I appreciate it.

 

shimokita.

[justincameras 0]

The 2 camera balun receiver is powered. I'm assuming the transmitting balun is too?

I would also make sure the 4 camera baluns are too.

 

I would also change to 24 volts AC if you have dual voltage cameras. 12 volt cameras for me have always had problems with induction from lights and control voltages. You can also get a variable power supply for voltage drops. I have never used a dahua anything so I know not about these.

 

I might even use Cat6 on the long run.

 

You also need to know if the ceiling is above acoustical tile or hardpan and if it is a plenum rated ceiling. Match the cable to the environment.

 

One more thing, I would definitely point cameras so they watch each other to prevent vandalism/theft.

 

Thanks for taking the trouble to reply. Actually, the 2 cam balun I'm thinking would be passive - the power is for the cameras (bad drawing!). A 24VAC supply is a good idea - less current down the UTP and less interference. Can you recommend any good 24VAC cameras? Cat6 here is only marginally more expensive than CAT5e, so will definately take that on board. The bar cameras I think I'll use active baluns, since there is going to be a dedicated supply up in the void anyway. If I use actives, do they have to be active at both ends, or can you mix 'n' match active & passives?

 

Thanks again. I appreciate it.

 

shimokita.

 

Here is a good primer on baluns and distance calcs. http://www.muxlab.com/assets/files/application_guides/VE_CCTV_Balun.pdf

 

I have no idea what camera to use for several reasons. I have not seen the environment you want to record, I don't know what you have access to to obtain cameras. I will suggest get wide dynamic range cameras so they can be adjusted to low or difficult lighting.

You can mix active and passive baluns and there is great debate over which to make the active balun. My opinion is at the camera. The camera transmits the signal, the balun amplifies it. It is transmitted over wiring to the DVR. If you use an active recieving balun, anything that could degrade the signal after being transmitted is amplified including noise.

Have you looked at IP cameras? Megapixel cameras? What do you want to see? Do you want a general view of a big area with no capability of forensic video? Do you want video of each register and see every transaction? Do you want to see the transactions from the registers printed on the screen with the video? That is called, POS, point of sale. If you upgrade to megapixel, you will have to upgrade your DVR too. Lots of questions to answer if you don't want to throw money away on a system.

 

I will help you design this for no monetary compensation if you trust me.

 

I just need some answers to these and a lot more.

[justincameras 0]

OK, that went well....

[Kawboy12R 0]

You asked questions and scared him off. The nerve of you...

[justincameras 0]

You asked questions and scared him off. The nerve of you...

 

 

Ha ha! I should know by now not to reply to 1 posters.

 

I just do it out of the goodness of my heart.

 

Is there a professional site for access control, CCTV, nurse call, burg and fire? Where they have never heard of Dahphooey?

 

I'v been looking for a site like that for four years. I find them but the last post was six months ago. Sheeesh! Or this one which has Made in China stamped on it's butt.

Edited January 17, 2013 by Guest

[Kawboy12R 0]

Well, some of the most interesting stories come from 1-posters. They say no good deed goes unpunished but I've either had pretty good luck or something's saving up the punishment.

[justincameras 0]

Well, some of the most interesting stories come from 1-posters. They say no good deed goes unpunished but I've either had pretty good luck or something's saving up the punishment.

 

 

Is there a professional site for access control, CCTV, nurse call, burg and fire Where they have never heard of Dahphooey?

 

I'v been looking for a site like that for four years. I find them but the last post was six months ago. Sheeesh! Or this one which has Made in China stamped on it's butt.

[Kawboy12R 0]

Victim of success? Dahfooey fills a niche. Just up the price ladder from absolute crap and edging into the territory of very good performance. Warts and all, for mainstreaming it's a good mix, IMHO. Beats the heck out of true bargain basement no-name Chinese crap. Of course if WE were running Dahfooey we'd fix all of the flaws we see in their support and quality control, right? Beat the line workers a bit harder for mistakes, make 'em polish the lenses a bit more, and hire smarter coders for the firmware. Just hire the Avigilon guys away and get 'em to work for Dahfooey for a while because Avigilon stuff has no flaws.

 

Haven't got a clue about another truly professional site because they wouldn't let me in if they were smart. I'm just an amateur CCTVer. Jack of many trades, master of few (one?).

[hardwired 0]

Well, some of the most interesting stories come from 1-posters. They say no good deed goes unpunished but I've either had pretty good luck or something's saving up the punishment.

 

 

Is there a professional site for access control, CCTV, nurse call, burg and fire Where they have never heard of Dahphooey?

 

I'v been looking for a site like that for four years. I find them but the last post was six months ago. Sheeesh! Or this one which has Made in China stamped on it's butt.

You aren't likely to find a forum solely for professionals, because people who do this day in and day out, and make their living at it, are not as likely to give out information freely.

 

Myself as an example, I cut my teeth in the burglar alarm market over 25 years ago, and have been doing CCTV and access for over 15 years. I don't mind giving out some information when I can, but I'm probably not going to give out information that could be used for a competitive edge against me, and I'm not going to feel obligated to answer every question here.

 

What you will find most of here is do-it-yourselfers that are looking to install a system (of whatever type), that will meet their goals at a minimal cost, and are willing to accept some compromises in functionality or durability. Dahua, and other similar products, fill that niche market.

 

There's a reasonable number of members on this site who are full time installers, and who contribute on a regular basis. The products that they are likely to recommend to a customer will likely be a different mix than the economy products often referred to here, because we have to warranty and maintain them for extended periods, and often in high security environments.

 

That demands a different mix of products, usually at prices that are less appealing for the DIYers.

[shimokita 0]

The 2 camera balun receiver is powered. I'm assuming the transmitting balun is too?

I would also make sure the 4 camera baluns are too.

 

I would also change to 24 volts AC if you have dual voltage cameras. 12 volt cameras for me have always had problems with induction from lights and control voltages. You can also get a variable power supply for voltage drops. I have never used a dahua anything so I know not about these.

 

I might even use Cat6 on the long run.

 

You also need to know if the ceiling is above acoustical tile or hardpan and if it is a plenum rated ceiling. Match the cable to the environment.

 

One more thing, I would definitely point cameras so they watch each other to prevent vandalism/theft.

 

 

Thanks for taking the trouble to reply. Actually, the 2 cam balun I'm thinking would be passive - the power is for the cameras (bad drawing!). A 24VAC supply is a good idea - less current down the UTP and less interference. Can you recommend any good 24VAC cameras? Cat6 here is only marginally more expensive than CAT5e, so will definately take that on board. The bar cameras I think I'll use active baluns, since there is going to be a dedicated supply up in the void anyway. If I use actives, do they have to be active at both ends, or can you mix 'n' match active & passives?

 

Thanks again. I appreciate it.

 

shimokita.

 

Here is a good primer on baluns and distance calcs. http://www.muxlab.com/assets/files/application_guides/VE_CCTV_Balun.pdf

 

I have no idea what camera to use for several reasons. I have not seen the environment you want to record, I don't know what you have access to to obtain cameras. I will suggest get wide dynamic range cameras so they can be adjusted to low or difficult lighting.

You can mix active and passive baluns and there is great debate over which to make the active balun. My opinion is at the camera. The camera transmits the signal, the balun amplifies it. It is transmitted over wiring to the DVR. If you use an active recieving balun, anything that could degrade the signal after being transmitted is amplified including noise.

Have you looked at IP cameras? Megapixel cameras? What do you want to see? Do you want a general view of a big area with no capability of forensic video? Do you want video of each register and see every transaction? Do you want to see the transactions from the registers printed on the screen with the video? That is called, POS, point of sale. If you upgrade to megapixel, you will have to upgrade your DVR too. Lots of questions to answer if you don't want to throw money away on a system.

 

I will help you design this for no monetary compensation if you trust me.

 

I just need some answers to these and a lot more.

 

Thank you for your reply and kind offer. I sincerely apologise for my late response. I will be seeing my client late next week and will glean some more information from him. As I mentioned I am a complete noob at this, but your advise put me in the right direction as to the kind of stuff I need to ascertain. So, I will report back. Again, I apologise for my late reply.

 

shimo.

[justincameras 0]

 

Thank you for your reply and kind offer. I sincerely apologise for my late response. I will be seeing my client late next week and will glean some more information from him. As I mentioned I am a complete noob at this, but your advise put me in the right direction as to the kind of stuff I need to ascertain. So, I will report back. Again, I apologise for my late reply.

 

shimo.

 

No worries mate.

 

I was just blowing off steam.

[shimokita 0]

I met with the client yesterday, and he was rushing about between his properties, so it was a little difficult to clearly ascertain his priorities (burglary, staff theft, bar-room fights, etc), I did manage to put together the following plans. Cut into 3 segments for easy viewing

 

I'm mainly thinking about camera positions and resolutions at the moment.

 

CAM 1 Client request. Directly above cash register. Cash register in in an alcove, so only directly above image possible, I doubt this camera is of any benefit, as register is placed quite low down and staff are leaning over it to see. Back of head shots only! Client's request…will have to confirm. He didn't seem that interested in a text inserter. Could mount it on the wall lower down.

 

CAM 2 To provide behind bar action and view of people entering bar area via kitchen back door. Kitchen does have any stock or value items, so no camera required.

 

CAM 3 & 5 Are meant to provide overall coverage of customer area in case anything kicks off here. Frontage and door 1 are pretty-much all glass so should be no problems with backlight when door opens. There are cabinets above the bar hatch preventing installing any further back. Both could be replaced by central 360 deg MP camera?

 

CAM 4 Provides general view of restaurant and closer view of people coming into bar via door 2.

 

CAM 6 Should provide close-up view of people entering via door 1 and also some limited outside action (frontage is glass).

 

CAM 7 provides general view of restaurant. Restaurant is quiet, breakfast buffet and evening dinners.

 

CAM 8, 9 & 10 cove the entrance and lobby, reception areas.

 

All areas drop plasterboard ceiling. At the moment leaning towards network cameras with IR capability and an NVR. No fluorescent lighting, TV's in monitoring area.

 

Advise about positioning dome/bullet and camera resolution gratefully received.

 

Thanks!

 

chazawa.

[justincameras 0]

Very good start! A 1.3 megapixel for sure over tha cash register.

 

I will study this and get back to you. What is your time frame?

 

Is this a for sure job for you or a design, proposal, bid?

 

Do you have to be carefull on the budget?

 

Here is a camera I have never used because of price but it is an example of what is out there.

 

http://scallopimaging.com/d7-imaging.php

 

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/868607-REG/Scallop_Imaging_dw01_100_001_D7_180_Digital_Window_Video.html

[shimokita 0]

Very good start! A 1.3 megapixel for sure over tha cash register.

 

I will study this and get back to you. What is your time frame?

 

Is this a for sure job for you or a design, proposal, bid?

 

Do you have to be carefull on the budget?

 

Here is a camera I have never used because of price but it is an example of what is out there.

 

http://scallopimaging.com/d7-imaging.php

 

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/868607-REG/Scallop_Imaging_dw01_100_001_D7_180_Digital_Window_Video.html

 

Hi,

 

Thanks for your thoughts. The client has asked me just to quote for the moment, although I don't believe he's asking around for other quotes (He's way out in the sticks). I'm hoping to get somes plans and figures to him by the end of this week. He seems pretty keen to get going.

 

This is not a money-no-object job - part of the interesting challenge for me is to get a cost-effective but high quality solution.

 

The cameras you linked to look excellent, I can see what you mean about why you've never used them budget-wise!

 

Cheers for now.

 

shimokita

[justincameras 0]

I met with the client yesterday, and he was rushing about between his properties, so it was a little difficult to clearly ascertain his priorities (burglary, staff theft, bar-room fights, etc), I did manage to put together the following plans. Cut into 3 segments for easy viewing

 

I'm mainly thinking about camera positions and resolutions at the moment.

 

CAM 1 Client request. Directly above cash register. Cash register in in an alcove, so only directly above image possible, I doubt this camera is of any benefit, as register is placed quite low down and staff are leaning over it to see. Back of head shots only! Client's request…will have to confirm. He didn't seem that interested in a text inserter. Could mount it on the wall lower down.

 

CAM 2 To provide behind bar action and view of people entering bar area via kitchen back door. Kitchen does have any stock or value items, so no camera required.

 

I would still consider a camera in the kitchen because the floor is greasy and slips can occur, and sometimes employees exact revenge upon customers by sabotaging their food.

 

Any place there is a camera looking at an outside door or glass I would use a WDR.

 

Cameras 3 and 5. Do they have to be placed on these walls or in ceiling tiles in these locations? I would consider utilizing the camera's triangular field of view and place the cameras in the corners for better coverage of the entire room. 360 meg cameras are expensive and the software sticthing the video together can be problematic at times.

 

I would also try to use cameras by the same manufacturer.

 

Maybe a small network camera like this on the cash register? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2HH3VjFOAI

 

 

CAM 3 & 5 Are meant to provide overall coverage of customer area in case anything kicks off here. Frontage and door 1 are pretty-much all glass so should be no problems with backlight when door opens. There are cabinets above the bar hatch preventing installing any further back. Both could be replaced by central 360 deg MP camera?

 

CAM 4 Provides general view of restaurant and closer view of people coming into bar via door 2.

 

CAM 6 Should provide close-up view of people entering via door 1 and also some limited outside action (frontage is glass).

 

CAM 7 provides general view of restaurant. Restaurant is quiet, breakfast buffet and evening dinners.

 

CAM 8, 9 & 10 cove the entrance and lobby, reception areas.

 

All areas drop plasterboard ceiling. At the moment leaning towards network cameras with IR capability and an NVR. No fluorescent lighting, TV's in monitoring area.

 

Advise about positioning dome/bullet and camera resolution gratefully received.

 

Now you need to think about power supplies. Either an independant one with fused or breaker resettable outputs or POE.

 

Here is a calculator for an Exaqvision NVR.

https://exacq.com/config/

 

Here is Exaqvision's youtube channel. http://www.youtube.com/exacq

 

I would find a manufacturer's sales rep to assist you in deciding focal length and lenses. Just call the company, that is what they are there for. I have over 300 of these installed for a very happy customer. http://www.stardot.com/

 

Thanks!

 

chazawa.

[justincameras 0]

If the small network camera onm the register doesn't work for you, try a pendant mount getting the camera closer to the register in the area you need to get the shot. If that doesn't work for you, try a camera farther away with a zoom lens Then if you need further enhancement, you can use the digital zoom feature.

 

Again ask the sales reps for the lenses they recommend for their camera.

[tomcctv 187]

Hi. it might be better to start again the thread is full of what is out there but nothing that can run together.

 

 

what is your budget ??? have you thought of a hybrid unit ........ some of your areas are only small

 

and for cable runs you are best using cat5 with standard baluns (for analog cameras) as you are not very long on your cable runs

[shimokita 0]

Thanks both for your replies. The client hasn't given me a budget ceiling, but asked for a quote. Hybrid would be a mix of IP (MP) and analogue?

 

I've rejigged the bar map, taking on-board Justincameras thoughts and also pondered a IP network camera version - see attached. I will consult with my supplier regarding the actual cameras; lenses, etc., but am thinking a name brand, bearing in mind the following points:

 

*Outside facing - with WDR

*Client asked for all IR cams, but I'm thinking just #6 & #10 should be enough...thinking to keep costs down

*Perhaps #3, #4, #5 & #7 could be higher pixel-count as they are covering a wider area?

 

Question:

 

Do I need anything on the NVR end of the 8-way PoE switch CAT cable, or can I plug it into just one RJ connector and the NVR will sort out all the IP addys?

 

Thanks very much.

 

shimo.

[justincameras 0]

Thanks both for your replies. The client hasn't given me a budget ceiling, but asked for a quote. Hybrid would be a mix of IP (MP) and analogue? Yes, a mix of IP and BNC analog. IP cameras can be regular resolution not just megapixel or HD. Keep aware of that.

 

I've rejigged the bar map, taking on-board Justincameras thoughts and also pondered a IP network camera version - see attached. I will consult with my supplier regarding the actual cameras; lenses, etc., but am thinking a name brand, bearing in mind the following points:

 

*Outside facing - with WDR Yes

*Client asked for all IR cams, but I'm thinking just #6 & #10 should be enough...thinking to keep costs down Depends on the light level.

*Perhaps #3, #4, #5 & #7 could be higher pixel-count as they are covering a wider area? Yes. They could be. Keep in mind the higher the resolution the more hard drive you need. You also need to determine how long he wants to keep recorded video.

 

Question:

 

Do I need anything on the NVR end of the 8-way PoE switch CAT cable, or can I plug it into just one RJ connector and the NVR will sort out all the IP addys?

All of the IP cameras will terminate with an Rj45 at the PoE switch. One cable RJ45 from there to the NVR. Analog have power to a power can and BNC connectors for video. We always used Siamese cable RG59 and 18 2 conductor to power supply. A hint, If you have the scap, run a CAT5 to every analog camera just in case of upgrades later on. Much easier to do it now than in the future.

Thanks very much.

No problemo.

shimo.

[justincameras 0]

The reason I am an Exacq fan is twofold.

 

#1 I have installed about every name brand VCR DVR NVR in 15 years of installations. From complete full blown 300 camera matrix systems like NICE Vision and American Dynamics with code translators over fiber optics to ma and pa's stop n rob. Exacq was founded by the inventors of the video capture card that every DVR, Dye sub printer, and computer used to capture and record video.

 

#2 they almost have a bulletproof product. Their tech support and sales help is fantastic, and they are in the U.S. and speak English!

 

Before you go with a name brand camera, check with Exacqvision on their compatibility.

 

JIC

[tomcctv 187]

We always used Siamese cable RG59 and 18 2 conductor to power supply. A hint, If you have the scap, run a CAT5 to every analog camera just in case of upgrades later on. Much easier to do it now than in the future.

 

 

 

hi. for size of cable runs cat5 or 6 is all that is needed for both analog or ip no point running cables you might never use.

 

 

Exacq was founded by the inventors of the video capture card that every DVR, Dye sub printer, and computer used to capture and record video

 

 

so we will forget the guy WHO did video capture via VCR or even earlier Film roll systems and cameras