need help w/ POWER over UTP idea..

[BrownChiLD 0]

Hi Guys

 

i've been deploying CCTVs and IP camera systems. usually the cheap ones ..

 

on CCTVs i use balun to take advantage of power and video over UTP.. it's great even at 300meters using cat6 cabling.. (for the power around 100m)..

 

anywho, i've been wanting to do the same w/ IP camera deployments, where the power for these cameras come from 1 source and through 1 cabling, the UTP..

 

right now it's either we use DC wire to send the power to the IP camera, or find a nearby power source and "make extentions"..

 

now i know there are POE type ipcams but it requires PoE switch or booster and all that. plus the PoE cams are expensive.. i like to keep costs low as possible.

 

 

ok, moving forward. here's what we did..

 

so since ip cams use 100mbs LAN cable (cat5 standard), we crimped only the pairs needed / used for this network.. that left us w/ 4 wires or 2pairs vacant. we then attached the power line to those 2 pairs.. and hope it'd work. basically same logic as the CCTV..

 

unfortunately, though the power on the ipcam turned on, the nic led wasnt blinking.. this was most probably a case of camera not getting enough power..

 

so we tried to dedicate more wires to each DC line just to see if that would work (basically using a new UTP cable to use 3 pairs for the adaptor.).. that also didnt work

 

w/c was strange to me.

 

so we took out our multi-tester and tested the output of the adaptor..

 

tested the adaptor directly via it's dc/output prong and it read 5v .005A (although the adaptor says 2A DC output, dunno wasap w/ that.i think im reading the tester wrong..) .. anyway that's the default output

testing the output from the other end of the UTP cable (around 20meters) the reading was exactly the same! 5v .005A

 

so , if POWER coming straight from the plug of the adaptor is equal to power coming out via 20m utp cable (2 pairs).. then why the heck isnt the camera working? are there other factors to consider?

 

 

and being in this situation, what can you guys suggest? to achieve basically what i wanted to do?

[tomcctv 188]

Hi. The best way is not to do it on the cheap.

 

If you don't want the cost of POE. Then just use cat5 shotgun cable .

[BrownChiLD 0]

Hi. The best way is not to do it on the cheap.

 

If you don't want the cost of POE. Then just use cat5 shotgun cable .

 

 

i agree.. but im not doing it on the cheap , bad cheap. im doing it on practical cheap.

 

 

Cat5 shotgun cable? sorry im not familiar w/ the term.

 

im already using Cat5. and i tried cat6 as well. no go. (using up to 4 pairs)

[tomcctv 188]

It this for a DIY or for customers ???

 

 

Cat5 shotgun is the same as RG59 with 18 power ........but with cat5 instead of coax.

 

 

 

Which ip cameras are you using ?

[Kawboy12R 0]

Assuming you read your tester correctly (I'm a bit skeptical if you have doubts), you've got a camera that runs on 5v DC? I'd expect 12v DC, 24v AC, or PoE. 12v cam won't run on 5v power even if you run 10 gauge wire to the camera. We won't worry about how you measured the .005A from the PS for now.

[BrownChiLD 0]

It this for a DIY or for customers ???

 

 

Cat5 shotgun is the same as RG59 with 18 power ........but with cat5 instead of coax.

 

 

 

Which ip cameras are you using ?

 

Yeh mostly DIYing things... ahh Cat5 shotgun, got it.. unfortunately i dont think we have that around here..i might have to just get the power line separately if i cant get this thing to work on utp line..

 

here is the most common cam im using

http://www.tp-link.com.au/products/details/?model=TL-SC3130#spec

 

other cams include planet, foscam.. mostly low power standard Ip cams. ..for home office.

 

Assuming you read your tester correctly (I'm a bit skeptical if you have doubts), you've got a camera that runs on 5v DC? I'd expect 12v DC, 24v AC, or PoE. 12v cam won't run on 5v power even if you run 10 gauge wire to the camera. We won't worry about how you measured the .005A from the PS for now.

 

yes 5v dc.. as per specification: 5VDC, Max 3W , and the original adaptor is that specification as well. so yes i got the proper voltage covered but it seems passing it through utp messes it up.. though the readings are the same on both ends (direct to adapter or thru a 20m cat5..

 

i spoke to one electrical dude and asked why this was.. coz if the tester output is the same, it doesnt make sense to me why i cant power the ipcam properly thru the cat5..

 

he said it was because when using a tester, the tester doesnt consume much of the voltage one is testing.. so it gets to read it in full. but when you plug it into a power hungry device, such as an IP cam, it can't draw enough power from the long UTP run.. it's a case of "under voltage"..

 

 

so he suggested we supply the other end w/ a different adaptor that outputs 12V DC instead of 5, and then just figure out a way to "tone down" the volt on the other end so that i dont burn my IP camera..

 

makes sense to you guys? so how to tone down the volts and make sure the cam gets exactly 5V DC only? resistors?

[tomcctv 188]

local power cameras ........ 5v over 20m is your problem max is 5 to 7m

 

 

cameras you listed are just web cams ........ you would be much better off using analog.

[Kawboy12R 0]

he said it was because when using a tester, the tester doesnt consume much of the voltage one is testing.. so it gets to read it in full. but when you plug it into a power hungry device, such as an IP cam, it can't draw enough power from the long UTP run.. it's a case of "under voltage"..

 

The voltage drop has to be checked under load which means testing with the device hooked up and running at full power.

 

so he suggested we supply the other end w/ a different adaptor that outputs 12V DC instead of 5, and then just figure out a way to "tone down" the volt on the other end so that i dont burn my IP camera..

 

makes sense to you guys? so how to tone down the volts and make sure the cam gets exactly 5V DC only? resistors?

 

Something like this should work-

http://www.amazon.com/Converter-Step-Power-Supply-Module/dp/B00A71CMDU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1361902327&sr=8-1&keywords=12v+to+5v+dc+converter

 

Mickey mouse approach but if you don't mind Rube Goldberg devices then go for it. With all of the playing around, complexity, etc you'd probably be better off just using something properly designed for the job and distances involved though. Seems like a lot of work to end up with something mediocre.

[BrownChiLD 0]

he said it was because when using a tester, the tester doesnt consume much of the voltage one is testing.. so it gets to read it in full. but when you plug it into a power hungry device, such as an IP cam, it can't draw enough power from the long UTP run.. it's a case of "under voltage"..

 

The voltage drop has to be checked under load which means testing with the device hooked up and running at full power.

 

so he suggested we supply the other end w/ a different adaptor that outputs 12V DC instead of 5, and then just figure out a way to "tone down" the volt on the other end so that i dont burn my IP camera..

 

makes sense to you guys? so how to tone down the volts and make sure the cam gets exactly 5V DC only? resistors?

 

Something like this should work-

http://www.amazon.com/Converter-Step-Power-Supply-Module/dp/B00A71CMDU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1361902327&sr=8-1&keywords=12v+to+5v+dc+converter

 

Mickey mouse approach but if you don't mind Rube Goldberg devices then go for it. With all of the playing around, complexity, etc you'd probably be better off just using something properly designed for the job and distances involved though. Seems like a lot of work to end up with something mediocre.

 

Thanks very much man. i get the point.. and ill check out that converter thing. but we plan to "build our own" little devices for this purpose. we can hire skilled electronics people to do this if it'll come out cheaper by the 100 to produce.

 

and yeh i know all this sounds like a mickey mouse DIY approach. but to be honest that's what we're known for here.. lolz..we mod tweak and upgrade things ourselves.. even those cams that we are supposed to not upgrade the lenses on, we are able to.. we've not had any problems . ofcourse we do test our little mods out thourouhgly before offering to clients.. and the goal of these is not to give us headaches but to

1) be innovative

2) be UNIQUE/DIFFERENT from our competitors

3) SAVE costs for client and us as well (meaning if this thing we're tweaking becomes more expensive, we might as well using effin flat cords to do the job (the usual way) or that Cat5 shotgun thing hehe. but right now , learning is still good process

 

thank you again..

 

local power cameras ........ 5v over 20m is your problem max is 5 to 7m

 

cameras you listed are just web cams ........ you would be much better off using analog.

 

re the power limitations on cable, thanks.. but to be honest, i i used to think this as well. but we have been deploying CCTV cameras over plain old UTP cat 5 well over 100m.. they are all working great.. then again we are running 12v dc on the UTP vs the 5v DC our ip cam deployment is having problems on .. hence the idea of stepping up the volts to 12v , and converting it back down to 5v on the camera side.. using a small circuit or something.

 

 

re better off using analogs.. i have to disagree strongly.. i spent many months studying this very fact, comparing ip cameras w/ different cctvs and all. i have a whole list of pros and cons and most pros are in favor of ip cameras, even these cheap "webcam" like cams..

 

some of the cons are just

Note: this is comparing entry level analogs setups vs entry level ip cameras setups , w/c is a budget that most clients can afford only.

 

1) usually the cheaper ip cams dont have built in NV - we have secret solution for this

2) it's hard to find a cheap outdoor ip cams - we made our own outdoor casing w/ cooling

3) it's more complicated to deploy - we are geeks and it's walk in the park for us.this also opens up oppurtunity to "earn" in maintenance side of things since most customers cant understand ip camera much vs analog plug and play.

4) it's more expensive... (entry level vs entry level). but part of my research was to build a 4ch 8ch and 16ch package package similar to analog packages for clients and offer it at "nearest price point" w/ analog setups.. this means i had to find the cheapest best option on the ipcamera. and i have tested a lot of crappy china stuffs.. lol

 

but pros outway the analogs so much. here are just a few..

1) of course being ip camera you have "intelligence" on each camera. specific setting on each camera.. ftp uploads, and all. even direct camera access through the router when needed.. i had a client who to view SPECIFIC cameras only remotely not the whole lot.. so i setup an independent stream to each of the ip cams directly from his laptop.. happy customer.

2) IP CAMERA is much better quality than ANALOG camera at the same price point! and this is proven time and time again. 420tvl 500tvl , simply lags a typical 640x480 reso ip camera, in both resolution and picture quality.. not to mention recording and stream options/compressions etc.. the only thing i noticed that analogs got over ip cams are the framerates.. analogs just have crazy fast frame rates over IP cams at similar price points..

3) IP cams can easily be wireless via ap, routers, or even wifi ip cams, at very little add on cost.

4) 2) we dont use NVRs, we use PC based NVRs, and custom DVR software w/c brings the DVR game to a whole new level. and demmet it's just so much easier to deal w/.. and u can add as many harddrive as u can.. easier to playback. mobile device compatiblitiy. heck, i wont list down all the benefits of a PC based Dvr .. it's a no brainer. and yeh a loooot of the pros for ip camera systems are based on the PC DVR as well.

 

etc etc etc

 

 

so perhaps those entry level cams may be WEBCAM quality , but they are in no way webcam only .. u should look into it.

 

 

now that's on the entry level side of things.. affordable vs affordable.. when we talk about high quality requirements w/ good budget then it's a case to case basis.. sometimes analogs work better, sometimes ip cams work better..

[GrouchoBoucho 0]

that is sure a *lot* of screwing around just to save a few bucks.

 

first of all...

 

plus the PoE cams are expensive

almost all ip cameras support poe, cheap ones included. you can also put a poe "splitter" at the camera end to break out dc stepped down to 5v, 9v 12v, etc. for devices that don't do poe.

 

second...

 

i like to keep costs low as possible.

what is your time worth? how much time have you spent now trying to figure this out, sort out your voltage losses, etc., when you could have just used a poe switch or injector and been done with it?

 

If you don't want the cost of POE. Then just use cat5 shotgun cable .

and what is the cost of that vs. simply using poe injectors?

 

now i know there are POE type ipcams but it requires PoE switch or booster and all that.

poe injectors can be had for under $50: http://dx.com/s/poe+injector - i've seen them as low as $15 elsewhere. this one will do two cameras for under $44 (or $22/camera): http://dx.com/p/48v-500ma-dual-port-48w-power-over-ethernet-poe-adapter-black-115419. this one is barely over $20: http://www.amazon.com/TP-Link-AC-TL-PoE150S-PoE-Injector/dp/B003CFATQU/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1361951891&sr=8-4&keywords=poe+switch

 

or for under $60, you can get an 8-port switch with four poe ports: http://www.amazon.com/TRENDnet-8-Port-100Mbps-Switch-TPE-S44/dp/B000QYEN1W/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1361951891&sr=8-1&keywords=poe+switch

 

or you can keep wracking your brain trying to figure out why your hack job doesn't work.

[BrownChiLD 0]

@GrouchBoucho

Lolz

 

thanks for your feedbacks mate.. i do agree w/ lots of ur points.. although

1) NOPE, not all cheap "good quality" ip cams have POE.. most cheap BAD china quality has.. there's a difference. and plus im basically talkin about availability on our end.

2) POE injectr/swtic/etc are all addon costs to each cam or set of cams.. im trying to keep the cost as low as possble w/ innovations

3) My time is worth a lot, but since this is a business I'm in, i consider this RnD time .. if we figure this out nicely w/ products available around us here (we dont have much options from where im from), then it's just 1 time , 1 month long experiment , but once we find a good cost-effective DIY alternative , then it's just cookie cutter.. if this was a 1 time deployment only, then your statement is true 100%, but this is an investment (time effort) for future deployments ..

 

 

 

thank you all very much.. i think we're goin w/ the step down solution..

[the toss 0]

He thinks he is geek but he doesn't know how to read a loaded voltage. As mentioned , heaven knows how he got that current reading. Now he is going to drop a 12V supply down to 5 V , presumably using a resistor. What parameters he will use to determine the resistor value is anyones guess. I think his ambition is wayyyy ahead of his ability.

[bigglebowski 0]

He thinks he is geek but he doesn't know how to read a loaded voltage. As mentioned , heaven knows how he got that current reading. Now he is going to drop a 12V supply down to 5 V , presumably using a resistor. What parameters he will use to determine the resistor value is anyones guess. I think his ambition is wayyyy ahead of his ability.

 

Of all the magic he is trying to pull converting 12vdc into 5vdc has got to be the easiest thing to do. A voltage regulator is one of the most basic circuits you can build.