Questions/observations configuring Axis P3367

[tome9999 0]

I have been playing with the P3367VE that I have mounted at the front door of a house. I have some questions and some observations.

 

For setting up motion detection I would use ACC because of the complicated shapes you can make. They would be ideal with the front area I have. However, in ACC there are no controls to set size of object, sensitivity, etc. So, when I got it set up, the smallest movement of anything would cause it to record. I even set the scene to be just a wood deck, no other plant or anything in the view but it was sensing something and wouldn't stop recording. I finally gave up on it and instead I am using the normal include/exclude windows in the Detectors set up. There I can easily control the size of the object that it will detect.

 

Observation: in the motion detection set up, the Object Size parameter is in some strange proportion to the window size. It isn't directly proportional though, I have a large detection windows and had to set the Object Size down in the small range to detect a person, whereas in a quite small detection window I had to set Object Size quite large to detect the same person. You really need to have the object you want to detect (a person or car) to move around in the window to see the effect. Makes it kind of hard to set the parameters without help.

 

Question: Anyone know if the top border of a motion window, or exclusion window, is included in the motion detection area being observed? Or is it just what you can see in the window not including the tab border?

 

Observation: Additional conditions in an Action Rule are ANDed with other actions. That is, for a given event to be triggered ALL conditions must be true. I thought it was an OR so I configured something like

If motion is detected in window 1

OR motion is detected in window 2

then

write video to SD card.

 

Nothing was getting written, because it isn't "OR", it is "AND". I would have to have had motion in both windows simultaneously to get it to record the event. This is a bit unfortunate as it means you have to define a bunch of events for each window you want to detect motion in versus having, say, a Driveway region and having three detection windows included in that. Not terrible, but something to be aware of.

 

Question: Is there a way to write video (on motion detection, or other) to both the SD card AND a network share at the same time, or do I have to set up separate events for the same thing in order to do that? I don't see how to select more than one device in a given detection window. It seems like a waste of resources to set up two of the same events in order to record both, but that is what it looks like to me, yes?

 

Question: What exactly is AVHS and why would I want to use it? Is it essentially paying someone to monitor my cameras?

 

I am confused about what the difference is between the Image Appearance setting under Video Stream, and the Capture Mode in Camera Settings, and the Stream Profiles. Are these all one and the same or are they different? I am trying to figure out the best quality and frame rate I can capture with the camera. Also, how does frame rate play into that? It is welcome to use the full 70Mbps or whatever it can achieve while recording (assuming i can get it to write to my NAS at the same time as SD card). I may have 3 or 4 cameras eventually but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.

 

That's all for now. I am sure there will be more questions coming

[StanLee2066 0]

In my opinion video motion detection is only useful in very stable indoor environments, where even the lighting is consistent. The ACC is a neat idea, but completely useless outdoors because as you mentioned there are no controls. The window option is much more flexible, but still tricky to set even in indoor home settings. I had an Axis camera set indoors and it kept triggering with my Xmas light activity, clouds suddenly covering the sun and even from the TV lighting when changing scenes! It's doable, but outdoors forget about it. You will quickly turn to PIR before you go completely nuts. All my cameras are m1114 series which I've recently sold on eBay to get a few p3364/67. Reason was the m114 series has no I/O input for PIR and I gave up trying to get video motion detect to work outdoors. I was able to temporarily borrow an Axis with I/O and PIR worked great!

 

If I recall in my own testing, the top border is indeed included as part of the motion detection area when using the window motion detect.

 

I've created up to 10 different streams. Each one tweaked for any situation that may come up. Mostly different resolutions/frame rates to meet specific needs when viewing remotely. For instance, if I'm viewing video at the local coffee shop on my phone, I'll select the 320x240 stream. At my work I may select the 800x600 stream. I have a 4mbps upload bandwidth at home, so the streams I've created are to ensure max 1-2mbps (when viewing remotely). My 1280x768 stream is at 5-10 fps max, but 320x240 is an easy 30fps. Keep in mind when it's dark the video gets noisy and the mbps will increase. When viewing inside my network on various devices it's 1280x768 @ 30fps no problem.

 

For recordings I also go with 1280x768 @ 30fps compression at 20 max. I've got the space, so why not get the best quality available - is that not why I paid so much for a quality camera? Since all my recordings are set to activity it's not an issue for me. I believe I typically get about 10g a day. I set to delete after a week.

Edited June 11, 2013 by Guest

[buellwinkle 0]

Let me remove some misconceptions of ACC. ACC is an app that is installed on the camera and runs on the camera. It does not take any of the camera settings you made like motion detection into consideration. For example, say you setup motion detection on the camera and have it write to the SD card. In ACC, you will not be able to see these recordings. But recordings you make via ACC to the SD card you will be able to see on the web interface. If you setup both, you will get double the recordings.

 

Yes, you have very limited control over the sensitivity or any parameters for motion detection other than a single detection zone where you control the shape.

 

Wait until you want to use ACC remotely.

[tomcctv 187]

Let me remove some misconceptions of ACC. ACC is an app that is installed on the camera and runs on the camera.

 

 

 

its client software ??? it runs on PC

[StanLee2066 0]

Let me remove some misconceptions of ACC. ACC is an app that is installed on the camera and runs on the camera.

 

its client software ??? it runs on PC

 

From Axis "While a laptop or PC is required for initial setup, the AXIS Camera Companion solution runs entirely inside the camera or encoder, and then only needs the free software client to monitor and record video". So yes, mostly a client to monitor/record video from PC (if you choose - not required), but there is a component that is installed in-camera.

 

I guess it should have been more clear in the discussion above that the motion detect method that alows for a complicated shape window is actually AXIS Video Motion Detection 2.1, which is a separate (optional) motion detect application that can downloaded from Axis and installed in the camera. This is the what I was refering to when I said ACC, sorry for the confusion.

[buellwinkle 0]

That's one unique feature of Axis is they have the concept of apps like your smartphone. We are going to getting an app that will do license plate recognition as an app running in the Axis camera from a 3rd party company. To bad it's not 99 cents like smartphone apps

[tome9999 0]

Speaking of apps running in the camera and ACC.... since using the EyeSpyFX app last evening (see my post here: viewtopic.php?f=19&t=36208&start=15) I have a recording showing up on my camera called ACC_Manual that will not go away. It is recording all the time and I can find no way to shut it off. I have quit all ACC apps on the iphone/ipad and computer and rebooted the camera several times but when it boots this always launches and records. Any ideas on how i can get rid of it? I submitted a support request to Axis on it as well but they haven't gotten back to me yet....

[tome9999 0]

So Axis support had me perform a reset to factory defaults. That, of course, worked but now I am back to reconfiguring everything. I asked them for more info, like why did this get created. Hopefully they will give me some useful info....

 

Sigh.

[buellwinkle 0]

And you were expecting perfection because you bought one of the top brands? I don't know a single brand of camera that I've reviewed that is perfect, they all have their quirks. Just have to learn what they are and work around them. Best thing is to report the problems otherwise the product never gets better.

 

So how do you feel about the 5MP P33 vs. the 1MP P33s? Also, how about the difference between the P3384 and P3364?

[tome9999 0]

And you were expecting perfection because you bought one of the top brands? I don't know a single brand of camera that I've reviewed that is perfect, they all have their quirks. Just have to learn what they are and work around them. Best thing is to report the problems otherwise the product never gets better.

 

So how do you feel about the 5MP P33 vs. the 1MP P33s? Also, how about the difference between the P3384 and P3364?

 

Perfection? No. Who said anything about perfection?

 

Axis support got back with me and said the problem is with the mobile app. When you click record in live view in the app it starts an ACC_Manual event that doesn't get removed until the app removes it. They said they would discuss the problem with the Eyespyfx and see if they could do something different.

 

You are thinking about a different user that got one of each (as it were)...

[buellwinkle 0]

 

You are thinking about a different user that got one of each (as it were)...

 

Yes, sorry about that. There's a reason that app has 1.8 stars on iTunes, LOL.

[tome9999 0]

In my opinion video motion detection is only useful in very stable indoor environments, where even the lighting is consistent. The ACC is a neat idea, but completely useless outdoors because as you mentioned there are no controls. The window option is much more flexible, but still tricky to set even in indoor home settings. I had an Axis camera set indoors and it kept triggering with my Xmas light activity, clouds suddenly covering the sun and even from the TV lighting when changing scenes! It's doable, but outdoors forget about it. You will quickly turn to PIR before you go completely nuts. All my cameras are m1114 series which I've recently sold on eBay to get a few p3364/67. Reason was the m114 series has no I/O input for PIR and I gave up trying to get video motion detect to work outdoors. I was able to temporarily borrow an Axis with I/O and PIR worked great!

 

Well, I hoped you were wrong, while knowing all along you were right. This evening a thunderstorm was thoroughly convincing. I got a text message (and recording) with every flash of lightning. Earlier today the sun coming and going behind clouds triggered it, Sigh.

 

I guess you gets what you pays for, as they say. There are detection algorithms that can work fine outdoors, it just isn't this one! Oh well. So will a PIR be fooled by moving trees or not? Any suggestions on which ones to use?

 

Thanks for the info you sent on streams as well...

[buellwinkle 0]

PIR is as close to full proof as possible as it triggers off the heat signature of an object in motion and you can set physical zones by blocking out parts of the lens and set a sensitivity so you don't get critters setting it off. It can not be triggered by lights, shadows, trees/shrubs swaying in the wind.

 

Decent outdoor PIR motion detectors cost about $100ish. The problem with Axis is that it doesn't have 12V out on the alarm I/O like say ACTi, so you could either get a battery operated PIR (batteries on them last a year or more) or get a 12V power supply to power it.

 

A Mobotix D15 may have cost a little more but would have had PIR motion detector built in and mic and speaker built in. Also 5MP and total access to recordings from the camera, no PC software needed, just saying.

[TommyB 0]

And you were expecting perfection because you bought one of the top brands? I don't know a single brand of camera that I've reviewed that is perfect, they all have their quirks. Just have to learn what they are and work around them. Best thing is to report the problems otherwise the product never gets better.

 

So how do you feel about the 5MP P33 vs. the 1MP P33s? Also, how about the difference between the P3384 and P3364?

I think that would be me

I got the 3384,3364 and the 3367

Not sure I like the 67. The 84 makes way better recordings as of now. But it could be I have no clue on how to set them all up yet. The 67 is all grainy and just looks crappy

[tome9999 0]

PIR is as close to full proof as possible as it triggers off the heat signature of an object in motion and you can set physical zones by blocking out parts of the lens and set a sensitivity so you don't get critters setting it off. It can not be triggered by lights, shadows, trees/shrubs swaying in the wind.

 

Decent outdoor PIR motion detectors cost about $100ish. The problem with Axis is that it doesn't have 12V out on the alarm I/O like say ACTi, so you could either get a battery operated PIR (batteries on them last a year or more) or get a 12V power supply to power it.

 

A Mobotix D15 may have cost a little more but would have had PIR motion detector built in and mic and speaker built in. Also 5MP and total access to recordings from the camera, no PC software needed, just saying.

 

Hmm you have a good point. I was considering a speaker and mic and now PIR.... I could put the 3367 at a different location, or return/sell it.... I may have to look at the Mobotix again...

Thanks

 

ps: Any idea what kind of distance the PIR on the Mobotix can detect to?

[buellwinkle 0]

Last time I looked at Mobotix specs on this, it was 30'.

[thewireguys 3]

In my opinion video motion detection is only useful in very stable indoor environments, where even the lighting is consistent. The ACC is a neat idea, but completely useless outdoors because as you mentioned there are no controls. The window option is much more flexible, but still tricky to set even in indoor home settings. I had an Axis camera set indoors and it kept triggering with my Xmas light activity, clouds suddenly covering the sun and even from the TV lighting when changing scenes! It's doable, but outdoors forget about it. You will quickly turn to PIR before you go completely nuts. All my cameras are m1114 series which I've recently sold on eBay to get a few p3364/67. Reason was the m114 series has no I/O input for PIR and I gave up trying to get video motion detect to work outdoors. I was able to temporarily borrow an Axis with I/O and PIR worked great!

 

Well, I hoped you were wrong, while knowing all along you were right. This evening a thunderstorm was thoroughly convincing. I got a text message (and recording) with every flash of lightning. Earlier today the sun coming and going behind clouds triggered it, Sigh.

 

I guess you gets what you pays for, as they say. There are detection algorithms that can work fine outdoors, it just isn't this one! Oh well. So will a PIR be fooled by moving trees or not? Any suggestions on which ones to use?

 

Thanks for the info you sent on streams as well...

 

Why not look at some of the other apps that add analytics to the camera?

 

In my experience with many different IP camera manufactures Axis's box based motion detection (or any manufactures's box based including ACTI) is useless unless you have a controlled lighting environment.

[tome9999 0]

Last time I looked at Mobotix specs on this, it was 30'.

 

Hmm, I was afraid of that. I need 50', more would be better. So I would have to add another PIR sensor, assuming that is possible.

 

I have been looking at Mobotix's information today. I find their information to be confusing and intentionally misleading. Their "6mp camera's" are NOT, they are 3mp and through the power of marketing they magically become 6mp because you can combine two images. Unless, of course you want the camera to work in low light, then you have to have a night sensor and, in my case, have both pointing to the same scene and get one 3mp image at any given time. I do like the fact that they have built in audio, and PIR. But 30ft will only do part of what I want and that comes at a $600 premium compared to the Axis....

[StanLee2066 0]

Well, I hoped you were wrong, while knowing all along you were right. This evening a thunderstorm was thoroughly convincing. I got a text message (and recording) with every flash of lightning. Earlier today the sun coming and going behind clouds triggered it, Sigh.

 

I guess you gets what you pays for, as they say. There are detection algorithms that can work fine outdoors, it just isn't this one! Oh well. So will a PIR be fooled by moving trees or not? Any suggestions on which ones to use?

 

Thanks for the info you sent on streams as well...

 

Lightning storm, that's hilarious! Actually, all the PIR motion sense manufacturers claim that moving trees, bright car headlights and such can in fact still trigger them. That is why many are specifically designed for outdoor use. Many even use dual technology and incorporate microwave. I've seen the false triggers happen on the cheaper units for indoor use, but good quality outdoor models should not give you any problems.

 

I prefer a separate unit rather than an integrated one like Mobotix has. This gives my the option to change/upgrade and flexibility in positioning, longer range etc. Unfortunately it will require a separate 12v power source....

 

Since I live in a cold area where it often get's to -20C .... and even -25C or -30C in the wintertime, finding the most qualified PIR was more difficult, but I'm going to be ordering the PIR you see in the link below (~$100). BOSCH and Optex also make good units that have been recommended by users in this forum.

 

http://www.dsc.com/index.php?n=products&o=view&id=1346

[StanLee2066 0]

I think that would be me

I got the 3384,3364 and the 3367

Not sure I like the 67. The 84 makes way better recordings as of now. But it could be I have no clue on how to set them all up yet. The 67 is all grainy and just looks crappy

 

It would be interesting to get your final impressions when they're all setup.

[buellwinkle 0]

Tome, something probably got lost in translation because I saw that too and said WTF. The one you would want is the D15 DNight SEC and whatever lenses you choose. This includes 1 color sensor, 5MP for day use and one b&w sensor, 3.1MP for night use. The advantage is you have a good color sensor for the day that's lousy at night and a dedicated b&w sensor that's 3.1mp but excellent for night use. I have yet to work with a camera that gives me a b&w image that's as crisp and detailed as the Mobotix b&w sensors. I have some that I use that have 2 B&W sensors, older models that were 1.2MP, but with the new one, you could get two 3.1MP b&w lenses, point them separately and have 6.2MP of recording and you can chose to record them as one video like we do or as two separate cameras. So I can see why they say that but that's not common, but I do it on two separate properties because they work well day or night, just lose color but then we have other color cameras to capture that detail like license plates at faster shutter speeds and dedicate one sensor of each of 2 lanes.

 

As for adding an additional PIR, yes, you can use the internal PIR motion detection as well as audio detection to trigger events and external alarm inputs for detection like an external PIR. Also, Mobotix has some basic analytics built-in for intelligent object in motion detection that reduces false alarms and they also have reference images you can use to reduce false alarms and you can setup basically unlimited rectangles for video motion detection. Also, separate rectangles for each lens and each rectangle you can set sensitivity settings for. With all this flexibility comes a price, it's not easy to setup but once you figure it out you can appreciate the complexity. What makes it easier for some is to use their MXEasy and MXControlCenter software, but I just setup everything form the camera's browser interface.

[tome9999 0]

Tome, something probably got lost in translation because I saw that too and said WTF. The one you would want is the D15 DNight SEC and whatever lenses you choose. This includes 1 color sensor, 5MP for day use and one b&w sensor, 3.1MP for night use.

 

I don't think it is a translation issue. I think what they are doing is using 5mp sensors but only using 3.1mp per sensor to improve light capture. The delivered image is either 3.1 or (2 X 3.1)=6.2 according to the D15 user manual. So, if you have a DSec-Night, you have either a 3.1mp color OR 3.1mp B&W image. The manual is quite clear about it, so if it is a translation issue then they really went out of their way to confuse!

 

Go to http://www.mobotix.com/other/Products/Cameras/DualDome-D15 and click on the second icon on the top right that looks like a book with a camera on it. Several places throughout this manual they talk about it including the Forward, the section "5-Megapixel Image Sensor Technology" and 1.1.2 "Advantages And New Features", among others.

 

From section 1.1.2:

"Due to technical reasons, the maximum size at which the images of a D15D sensor can be displayed is 3.1 megapixels (live or recorded). Despite this, the D15D outperforms the previous D14D model and other dome cameras on the market in many respects"

[tome9999 0]

Lightning storm, that's hilarious! Actually, all the PIR motion sense manufacturers claim that moving trees, bright car headlights and such can in fact still trigger them. That is why many are specifically designed for outdoor use. Many even use dual technology and incorporate microwave. I've seen the false triggers happen on the cheaper units for indoor use, but good quality outdoor models should not give you any problems.

 

I prefer a separate unit rather than an integrated one like Mobotix has. This gives my the option to change/upgrade and flexibility in positioning, longer range etc. Unfortunately it will require a separate 12v power source....

 

Since I live in a cold area where it often get's to -20C .... and even -25C or -30C in the wintertime, finding the most qualified PIR was more difficult, but I'm going to be ordering the PIR you see in the link below (~$100). BOSCH and Optex also make good units that have been recommended by users in this forum.

 

http://www.dsc.com/index.php?n=products&o=view&id=1346

 

Yes it was hilarious getting hundreds of images

 

I have a DSC security system in the house. The PIR sensors (a different model) have always been quite reliable, except that we learned that mylar balloons floating around set them off

 

By the way, Newegg has these for $75.

 

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA1ZC0K70313&nm_mc=OTC-Froogle8&cm_mmc=OTC-Froogle8-_-Surveillance%20-%20Home%20Safety%20%26%20Security-_-DSC-_-9SIA1ZC0K70313

[buellwinkle 0]

OK, I'm totally confused then. They say they have a 5MP sensor, but produces 2 3.1MP images, huh? I'll email them and ask. Maybe get one to review. We have several going in on a projects but not for about 3 months until the construction is complete. We have plenty of D14's, and 3.1MP color during the day on one sensor and 1.2MP at night with the other.

[tome9999 0]

OK, I'm totally confused then. They say they have a 5MP sensor, but produces 2 3.1MP images, huh? I'll email them and ask. Maybe get one to review. We have several going in on a projects but not for about 3 months until the construction is complete. We have plenty of D14's, and 3.1MP color during the day on one sensor and 1.2MP at night with the other.

 

They have two 5mp sensors. Each one ultimately produces 3.1mp (they combine pixel sites on the sensor to get more light - a sort of down-sampling). This technique has been used on dslrs in the past to get better noise and low light characteristics. If you have a day and night you can only use one or the other. If you have two day, or two night, you can combine them and you have 6.2mp.