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 Post subject: Re: Best HDcctv camera?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:35 am 
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HD-sdi will be good for trunk slammers and install company's that are afraid of IP and at this point if your not learning IP you will be obsolete in a couple of years.

My main issue with HD-sdi is design flexibly, you are again limited to blocks of 4,8,16 and you have to use coax home runs with distance limitations and no wireless options.

Also the man in charge of HDcctv is a condescending a-hole.

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 Post subject: Re: Best HDcctv camera?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:45 am 
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SharkAttack wrote:
I wouldn't totally agree with Soundy, because he's being a bit unfair about the whole situation.

I calls'em as I sees'em.

SharkAttack wrote:
Soundy was true, SDI has limitations 2 MP, but since this technology is rather new,

SMPTE 292M (HD-SDI) was first published in 1998... when the vast majority of analog CCTV was still using VCRs. It's not new.

SharkAttack wrote:
But the main advantage of this sistem is that praticaly has no latency,

It actually has ZERO latency. However...

SharkAttack wrote:
could be a solution in some precision needed places, like shops, gas stations, banks.

Having installed systems in a couple hundred gas stations, I can tell you right now, zero latency would be of zero benefit. Consider that 99% of the time, in a retail situation, you're going to be viewing recorded video rather than live - an "introduced latency" of hours, days, weeks, or even months. If someone IS viewing it live, they're probably sitting in a back office, and an extra half-second between when something happens and when they see it isn't going to make a speck of difference in the time it takes them to get up off their arse and trundle out to the front counter.

SharkAttack wrote:
Even more, HD cctv can have 60 f/s, that make it even better for this situation.

At even higher storage cost. 30fps is overkill in the majority of situations. 60fps is pointless.

SharkAttack wrote:
So in conclusion, I'd like to say that HD cctv can find its place in a market for sure.

I never said it didn't. But it's a niche market at best. The benefits offered are *relevant* in only very limited situations.

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 Post subject: Re: Best HDcctv camera?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:46 am 
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thewireguys wrote:
Also the man in charge of HDcctv is a condescending a-hole.

=D> :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Best HDcctv camera?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:25 am 
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Quote:
SMPTE 292M (HD-SDI) was first published in 1998... when the vast majority of analog CCTV was still using VCRs. It's not new.


It's new, if you take a surveillance into consideration ;) we are talking about surveillance cameras, right Soundy?

Quote:
Having installed systems in a couple hundred gas stations, I can tell you right now, zero latency would be of zero benefit. Consider that 99% of the time, in a retail situation, you're going to be viewing recorded video rather than live - an "introduced latency" of hours, days, weeks, or even months. If someone IS viewing it live, they're probably sitting in a back office, and an extra half-second between when something happens and when they see it isn't going to make a speck of difference in the time it takes them to get up off their arse and trundle out to the front counter.


It still proves my point. Latency - bad, no latency - good.

Quote:
60fps is pointless.


Pontless in normal movement conditions, agree. But in extream movement conditions it's critical.

Perhaps it will be niche market, but we are just trying to get a benefit from it. I say it has potential.


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 Post subject: Re: Best HDcctv camera?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:42 am 
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SharkAttack wrote:
Quote:
Having installed systems in a couple hundred gas stations, I can tell you right now, zero latency would be of zero benefit. Consider that 99% of the time, in a retail situation, you're going to be viewing recorded video rather than live - an "introduced latency" of hours, days, weeks, or even months. If someone IS viewing it live, they're probably sitting in a back office, and an extra half-second between when something happens and when they see it isn't going to make a speck of difference in the time it takes them to get up off their arse and trundle out to the front counter.


It still proves my point. Latency - bad, no latency - good.

Latency is not inherently "bad". Latency is the very nature of RECORDED video: it happens now, you see it later. That's the whole point.

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 Post subject: Re: Best HDcctv camera?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:51 am 
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Soundy you are installer i see, you dealed with HDcctv surveillance systems?
We are planing to try it out it soon, that why I ended here in the first place :D
Maybe you know what are the weak technical points of this system? common bugs and such...

Thank you in advance


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 Post subject: Re: Best HDcctv camera?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:56 am 
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xellbuy wrote:
Hi Carl. Have you compared HDcctv vs. HD-SDI? What was your opinion.
We can't use either one so I've never even tested them. I've had a couple of vendors approach me (one for HD-SDI and one for HDcctv), but my first question to any vendor is can they demonstrate the product on our system.

For our purposes, neither system is ready for casino use: it won't work with our cable infrastructure (70% UTP single-pair w/baluns - 30% coax with many runs far longer than 100m), it won't work with either our matrix or our NVR and it won't display on our monitors.

In essence, what's the point? :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Best HDcctv camera?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:00 am 
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SharkAttack wrote:
Maybe you know what are the weak technical points of this system? common bugs and such...


design flexibly, you are again limited to blocks of 4,8,16 and you have to use coax home runs with distance limitations and no wireless options.

HD-sdi = all of the disadvantages of DVRs with some of the advantages of HD IP.

Biggest advantage of HD-sdi is zero latency

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 Post subject: Re: Best HDcctv camera?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:09 am 
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Soundy wrote:
Having installed systems in a couple hundred gas stations, I can tell you right now, zero latency would be of zero benefit. Consider that 99% of the time, in a retail situation, you're going to be viewing recorded video rather than live - an "introduced latency" of hours, days, weeks, or even months. If someone IS viewing it live, they're probably sitting in a back office, and an extra half-second between when something happens and when they see it isn't going to make a speck of difference in the time it takes them to get up off their arse and trundle out to the front counter.
Actually in my line of work, zero latency would be a plus. However, as I stated above, there's no advantage to a technology that not only requires we replace much, if not all, of our infrastructure, is not capable of seamless integration with the rest of our system. No matrix switches or recorders capable of handling >1000 cameras. No ability to display on tens of monitors, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Best HDcctv camera?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:30 am 
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survtech wrote:
Soundy wrote:
Having installed systems in a couple hundred gas stations, I can tell you right now, zero latency would be of zero benefit. Consider that 99% of the time, in a retail situation, you're going to be viewing recorded video rather than live - an "introduced latency" of hours, days, weeks, or even months. If someone IS viewing it live, they're probably sitting in a back office, and an extra half-second between when something happens and when they see it isn't going to make a speck of difference in the time it takes them to get up off their arse and trundle out to the front counter.
Actually in my line of work, zero latency would be a plus. However, as I stated above, there's no advantage to a technology that not only requires we replace much, if not all, of our infrastructure, is not capable of seamless integration with the rest of our system. No matrix switches or recorders capable of handling >1000 cameras. No ability to display on tens of monitors, etc.

I can see the biggest benefit for you being in PTZ control, especially as this is one of the main areas where latency in IP cameras IS a problem. On that note though, I'm currently bench-testing an Axis Q1604 (their new highly-touted low-light/WDR toy), and I gotta say... latency might be MEASURABLE, but it's practically UNNOTICEABLE unless you're actually looking for it. I can point it at my screen, then watch on the DVR - moving a window on the screen, it's only intermittently that I can actually see a delay on the DVR.

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 Post subject: Re: Best HDcctv camera?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:17 pm 
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survtech wrote:
We can't use either one so I've never even tested them. I've had a couple of vendors approach me (one for HD-SDI and one for HDcctv), but my first question to any vendor is can they demonstrate the product on our system.

For our purposes, neither system is ready for casino use: it won't work with our cable infrastructure (70% UTP single-pair w/baluns - 30% coax with many runs far longer than 100m), it won't work with either our matrix or our NVR and it won't display on our monitors.

In essence, what's the point? :roll:

survtech wrote:
Actually in my line of work, zero latency would be a plus. However, as I stated above, there's no advantage to a technology that not only requires we replace much, if not all, of our infrastructure, is not capable of seamless integration with the rest of our system. No matrix switches or recorders capable of handling >1000 cameras. No ability to display on tens of monitors, etc.


I'm in the same boat as you, except that EVERY camera here is done over UTP (parking lot cameras are on fiber). The thought of a PTZ that isn't easily compatible with our switching matrix/every monitor AND has noticeable latency makes me shudder. For fixed cameras, latency is a non-issue, so going IP and with whatever resolution is required makes great sense (think face cameras, gaming tables, number plate recognition). So with a rather LARGE system that is compatible with both analog encoders and IP cameras (manufacturer will add support for unsupported cameras on request, and quickly), the transition to IP is much easier to accomplish than to HDcctv.

Add decoders to most of the existing monitors so they can decode IP streams, then leave a handful of monitors on the old analog matrix for use with the analog PTZs to eliminate lag. You can still display all analog cameras on the digital streaming/decoded monitors, but they will have a noticeable latency, hence leaving a few analog monitors. IP PTZ lag is getting to the point where we could tolerate it in our line of work thanks to multiple video streams.

As more and more IP cameras are added and old analog replaced, eventually the analog matrix and the analog encoders would simply dwindle away and disappear, freeing up rack space for more DVR/NVR units to record the IP cameras with. And with 7 racks full of analog switching and encoders, that's a WHOLE LOT of recording.

Also, the system I use is only limited by network bandwidth and disk i/o for the number of IP cameras you can record. What was that limit on HDcctv DVRs again?


Last edited by dustmop on Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Best HDcctv camera?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:24 pm 
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Soundy wrote:
I can see the biggest benefit for you being in PTZ control, especially as this is one of the main areas where latency in IP cameras IS a problem. On that note though, I'm currently bench-testing an Axis Q1604 (their new highly-touted low-light/WDR toy), and I gotta say... latency might be MEASURABLE, but it's practically UNNOTICEABLE unless you're actually looking for it. I can point it at my screen, then watch on the DVR - moving a window on the screen, it's only intermittently that I can actually see a delay on the DVR.


I've played with some Axis cameras in the past, most recently the Q1755, and I love them. While I wish the Q1604 offered 1080 instead of 720, I think it's time to find one to play with. I can think of a few places here that a camera like this would help.


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 Post subject: Re: Best HDcctv camera?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 7:27 pm 
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Yeah dustmop, we're just starting the process of evaluating systems to replace our aging Honeywell Enterprise purchased in 2003. One option we have been assessing is retaining the Pelco 9780 for Spectra PTZ control and monitoring while using a virtual matrix for the fixed cameras.

Do you have totally independent monitor/control systems for the two or what? I envision interfacing between the Pelco CC1's or joysticks and the VMS so that if we call say, Camera #501 (fixed) to Monitor 12, it only appears there while if you call Camera #120 (PTZ) to Monitor 12, it appears on Monitor 12 but also appears on a single analog "PTZ Monitor" on the console in front of the operator for zero latency control purposes. Since an operator can't control more than one PTZ at a time, that would work just fine.

I believe someone (manufacturer or integrator) should be able to write an app for that.

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 Post subject: Re: Best HDcctv camera?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 7:57 pm 
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dustmop wrote:
I've played with some Axis cameras in the past, most recently the Q1755, and I love them. While I wish the Q1604 offered 1080 instead of 720, I think it's time to find one to play with. I can think of a few places here that a camera like this would help.

I gotta say, the more I play with this camera, the more I like it, just from a behind-the-scenes perspective. The control and live view interface work perfectly in Chrome; the JPEG push in Chrome is actually faster and smoother than the H.264 live-view in Explorer (H.264 in Chrome uses Quicktime, which is BRUTALLY slow). It has a remote-operable ABF that's very handy. Short of any quantitative tests, the low-light performance just sitting on my bench is stunning.

Oh, and point of interest, it actually does a full 1MP (1280x960), although it defaults to 720p.

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 Post subject: Re: Best HDcctv camera?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 7:34 am 
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Those of you concerned about latency issues keep an eye on Avigilon's new 4.12 software and there new PTZ cameras. This new latency optimization mode will also work with there encoders and analog PTZ cameras.

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