Manufacturers of Generic Cameras Onsold as Premium Brands

[Fiona 0]

The Holy Grail - Cameras

 

Most electronic products today originate in Economic Processing Zones (EPZs) in Asia. These factories produce devices which, though identical, are sold on the market as Brand A, Brand B and so forth. Occasionaly, a genuine brandname product, i.e. manufactured on behalf of the known Brand, will turn up as a 1/3 price generic. Sometimes generics carry evidence of the expensive brandname left in obscure fine print on their products.

 

The point is, if manufacturing is becoming concentrated, and if most of the stuff we buy is simply badged or rebadged (Mona Lisa?) generically-produced technology then hunting down the original manufacturers of high quality merchandise such as cameras, would allow the end-users, consumers, to get the highest resolution, longevity and efficacy per dollar spent.

 

Cameras are not that easy to pin down as DVRs, nevertheless, there would almost certainly exist in both Korea and China large factories producing the lion's share of high quality unbranded cameras. And I would imagine those factories would give end-users a substantial bang for their bucks, so to speak.

 

The problem is tracking down those factories...

[Soundy 1]

While these different re-brands may be identical DESIGNS, built on the same production line, they're usually not identical IN QUALITY. The cheaper ones are typically the units that don't pass the quality control/quality assurance stages of manufacturing, sold cheap to a third party to re-sell under their own name. This is a common practice in all areas of manufacturing.

 

The cheaper "brands" (or lack thereof) often come with no support as well - they're the units that have no brand name on them, and no contact info in the all-too-skimpy documentation. If a company doesn't have to support the products they sell, they can sell them for a lot less. A large part of the extra money you pay with "name brands" goes to actually having a toll-free number, and to technical support and customer service staff. It goes to cover their costs when a customer gets a bad unit and wants it replaced under warranty.

[Bean00 0]

^^^ What he said.

 

There is a reason that the largest share of the US market is owned by manufacturers who OEM products. Most true manufacturers either don't understand our market or won't invest what they need to in order to provide the level of support and service to the integrator.

 

It's not just about price - it's about value.

 

Not to mention those true manufacturers who do decide to come into the US really irritate their largest customers - the Manufacturers who rebrand their products.

[SEANHAWG 1]

It is nearly impossible for a regular consumer to purchase a few pieces of equipment from a well known large manufacturer of quality products from Korea. Even with us being a retailer, we looked into purchasing equipment from some Korean Manufacturers, the problem is they wanted atleast $50,000-100,000 worth of products per order, or 300-1000 units of a certain product at a time. Even some of the large Chinese Manufacturers are doing this too. Its not worth their time to fiddle around with onesy and twosey orders when they have these massive orders from Samsung, Pelco, Panasonic, Dedicated Micros, etc of whom the manufacturers really dont want to tick off by selling to the end consumer in the first place.

[Fiona 0]

Soundy, I would say that premium generic equipment shouldn’t need support. Besides, if it did, it would be available through the company that rebranded it.

 

Chris, I’m talking about the wee small band of enthusiasts who know about rebranding. I am not broadcasting this knowledge to the wider public. This information ought to be very, very useful to the installers and merchants who support this Forum. Otherwise we are all just at the end of a very long line of importers and on-sellers. I like the idea of going to the source, or at least knowing some details about that source.

 

Sean, I don’t think that generalisation is absolutely true. Certainly I agree that the Samsung, Pelco, Panasonic, Dedicated Micros gear appears on a different playing field. But I am not really focused on Brands who make equipment that is unnecessarily esoteric. What I am talking about is robust equipment that performs to industry standards and is not taxed by the enormous bureaucratic structure of the Corporate world. Sean, I know that it is still possible to source premium CCTV equipment directly from EPZs because I have done it. And besides, surely installers need to get the upper-hand on this supply problem to maximize the viability of their livelihoods.

[Soundy 1]

Soundy, I would say that premium generic equipment shouldn’t need support.

Sure they "shouldn't", but how often is that really the case? I've had Pelco ICS-110 domes die just being mounted in direct sunlight - really nice to have the full warranty coverage when that happens. I've had Pelco, Panasonic, Sanyo, Sony (Sony-branded cameras, mind you, not just "Sony CCD" no-name cameras), National Electronics, Arecont, IQEye, and other top-tier names with cameras that were non-functional out of the box... or damaged during packaging or shipping... or even just have small glitches that should be addressed under warranty, like an Arecont dome that the brightness and contrast settings didn't do anything (and yes, I checked the firmware version).

 

The fact is, nobody sells a 100% perfect product... what's really nice is when the company stands behind it.

 

Also, "support" doesn't just mean replacing bad cameras. It means being able to ask questions when something doesn't quite make sense, or when you need to know how to do something unorthodox. IQEye support, for example, has been outstanding in helping me with some scripting functions that aren't covered, or are poorly covered, in the manuals. It's invaluable in these cases to have someone actually respond to your questions with something besides "well, it's in the manual."

 

And when you have these questions and problems, it's really great to actually have a phone number or website to contact someone through.

 

Besides, if it did, it would be available through the company that rebranded it.

Oh get real! How many cheap systems don't even list a brand name, let alone a web address or phone number, in their documentation? Just take a look through these forums, for people looking for firmware updates for their no-name and off-brand DVRs, because the included manual has NO contact information for the "manufacturer".

 

That's the difference between paying $100 for a "budget" DVR, and $300 for a name-branded "identical" model.

[Fiona 0]

I think you are missing the point. I don't want to mention specifics here because I don't want to undermine the sponsors of this Forum. I have equipment with the actual Brandname A (for example) in tiny print, even though the item was sold as a generic. So with that piece of equipment (which cost 1/3 of Brandname A's price) I am pretty darned certain where it came from and where to get answers. Warranty is overblown. Quality companies are backing their products in case they fail. Even direct suppliers offer 2-3 year warranties.

[Soundy 1]

I think you are missing the point.

No, I think YOU'RE missing the point: cheap equipment is cheap FOR A REASON. Whether it's poor construction, low-quality parts, lack of "manufacturer" support, or any combination of the above, when you pay for "name-brand" equipment, you're usually paying for more than just the brand name.

 

I have equipment with the actual Brandname A (for example) in tiny print, even though the item was sold as a generic. So with that piece of equipment (which cost 1/3 of Brandname A's price) I am pretty darned certain where it came from and where to get answers.

Good luck with that. No manufacturer I know of will support someone else's equipment, even if it was originally made by them. For starters, most want a serial number, and if it doesn't match one they've sold, they won't support it.

 

Think about it for a moment: imagine you're a recognized name brand (Brandname A), you spend tons of money on advertising, marketing, setting up sales channels and a whole support structure... you spend money on an ongoing basis to maintain that support structure - toll-free phone lines, support staff, coders to write and test firmware updates... you invest a LOT to sell back up your products and keep your customers happy.

 

Now some offshore company (Noname B) buys up the products that you've deemed not good enough to sell under your own name... they put their own name on them and blow them out the door cheap. They also don't provide any method of contact for customers who have issues.

 

So customer with a bunch of flaky Noname B cameras figures out that, hey, these look exactly like those expensive Brandname A cameras... maybe Brandname A company will help me with them!

 

If you're Brandname A, what would possibly entice you to support those cameras? To expend your own resources in aid of something that you essentially just tossed out because you KNEW it wasn't good enough to carry your name? ESPECIALLY when you know that Noname B quite likely modified those cameras on their own?

 

My experience, that original manufacturer is going to tell you to go back to your vendor for support... which is hard to do if that vendor hasn't provided contact info.

 

Warranty is overblown.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahah really? You don't live in the real world, do you?

[Fiona 0]

I am not going to mention specific Brandnames here, however, if a person had a generic item that was marketed by Brand A and Brand B, then obviously the information for that product would be widely available. When they start out with 'please supply the model number' abrogation route it is pretty obvious who controls the situation. And that is what I have tried to crystalise in your mind.

 

Warranty is overblown - they are words on a page - because reliable manufacturers build to a quality and not to meet the minimum fiduciary standards. Oh gee, I'm going to run out and pay $1000 because of some minimum warranty rather than spending $333 on an identical product which came from the same factory when the factory itself will warranty the item.

 

This thread strated in response to the fact that the camera rubric had the highest number of posts on the Forum. Go back and read the endless complaints people have with brandname products like the one you relentlessly promote: CNB; and wonder why it is that people are looking for a better solution to the camera aspect of CCTV.

[Soundy 1]

Oh gee, I'm going to run out and pay $1000 because of some minimum warranty rather than spending $333 on an identical product which came from the same factory when the factory itself will warranty the item.

That's where you're wrong: the factory WON'T typically warranty a product that was not sold under their own name.

 

Once again, one of the problems with the rebranded product is that the company selling them will often make modifications of their own - with a dome or bullet camera, for example, they may remove the included lens and ship it with a lower-cost, lower-quality lens. What happens if the lens is later found by the customer to be faulty? Why would "the factory" honor a warranty on a product that they didn't supply? With higher-end cameras, third-party OEMs will often use their own modified firmware - again, why would "the factory" want to warranty something that they didn't produce?

 

A solid warranty is worth more than just the cost of the product. For one, when a manufacturer provides a warranty, it's showing confidence in their product. If they're foisting off factory seconds to someone else, it's because they feel that specific unit won't live up to those expectations. So I can sell and install the name-branded camera with a greater expectation that it WON'T have problems into the future. Forget the raw dollars, it doesn't look good if a customer has to keep calling you in because you installed cheap equipment that keeps breaking down.

[Fiona 0]

Once again, most consumers talk about warranty in a period of months - 12; 24; 36 - and accept that pathetic, brief, branded liability as a guarantee of longevity. Industrial standards aimed at by companies like Ikegami are measured in decades. And it is not generally known that in Japan, the Corporate giants rely on the supply of what amounts to generic components sourced from thousands of small manufacturers. I use one genuine Sony camera that has been in operation for twelve years despite the abysmal guarantee of only 12 months. The tenacity of the equipment is in-built from the standards of the people who built it - many of whom were mere small manufacturers. And similar tenacious manufacturers do exist in Korea and China: producing the components for Pelco and friends.

[rory 0]

What "names" are you talking about? Not all cameras use the same design or are manufactured by the same company, most are not "Identical". Are you just talking about components used? Name names, please, otherwise I have no idea what you are talking about.

[Fiona 0]

Rory, I have sent you a private message with the details you requested.

The page subjects are listed below. I have removed the web addresses from the public post because I began with a simple discussion about sourcing cameras before it turned into a slanging match.

 

Merry Christmas,

Fiona.

 

Here is the home page:

 

Company profile:

 

ISO 9001 14001, FCC and IP66 Certification:

 

And here is the 100+ page catalogue:

 

And here is the support page:

 

Download page:

 

Technical Support page:

 

Diagrams in PDF format:

 

Technical support manuals:

[jeromephone 6]

Most of the major suppliers have certain standards that manufactures have to meet before they will carry their products. They require certain dollar volume of sales overall, tech support depts, and performance standards. When I buy through them I may pay alittle more usually not but I don't have to track down someone on the other side of the world. I call them get an RMA and my account is credited or I have an advance replacement on the way. Who you by from can be as important as what you buy.

[thewireguys 3]

Good support is key

[Soundy 1]

Didn't look like a "simple discussion" to me... the original post looks more like a sweeping statement that name-branded cameras are a rip-off.

[rory 0]

I didnt get the message

 

But I gut cameras alot, I mean down to taking the lens apart the boards everything .. and ive yet to find one that is identical. What you do find though is many use the same lenses. But even so I would find some with totally different lens design from others, such as the CNB bullet, where the IR Cut is over the chip instead of in the lens. This summer alone I must have taken apart a dozen or so cameras, mostly to get to the IR Cut or AI on the lens .. but for other reasons also.

[rory 0]

Didn't look like a "simple discussion" to me... the original post looks more like a sweeping statement that name-branded cameras are a rip-off.

I was trying to figure out what the original post was about .. I guess they are talking about Brands like many of the small ones in the US that say they are manufacturers and yet just rebadge their cameras (in most cases)? If so, nothing new, weve talked about it before on the forum.

[SEANHAWG 1]

But I am not really focused on Brands who make equipment that is unnecessarily esoteric. What I am talking about is robust equipment that performs to industry standards and is not taxed by the enormous bureaucratic structure of the Corporate world. Sean, I know that it is still possible to source premium CCTV equipment directly from EPZs because I have done it. And besides, surely installers need to get the upper-hand on this supply problem to maximize the viability of their livelihoods.

 

All of those companies named carry high quality surveillance equipment. Most of these companies re-brand alot their equipment and I was under the impression that you were looking to buy from the manufacturers that make their equipment. Most of them are in Korea. Those manufacturers will not sell one or 2 pieces to you, you have to have a minimum order, and usually the best manufacturers have a very large minimum order. Now there are some manufacturers that will sell one or 2 pieces to you but they are alot lesser known and do not have major name brand customers like the ones that I stated. I have dealt with alot of chinese manufacturers who will let us order one piece samples and then follow it up with a small 10-20 piece order, and yeah, the equipment that we get from them is pretty good too. And I am sure there are a few lesser known Korean Manufacturers that will do the same. I love to work with those types of companies.

 

But to find a manufacturer who manufacturers for well known name brand equipment such as the ones that I stated and to get them to sell direct to you for just a few pieces, just aint gonna happen. You will always need a minimum order of some sort.

 

Sean, I know that it is still possible to source premium CCTV equipment directly from EPZs because I have done it.

 

I would be curious to know which brand name product that you found the manufacturer for that sold directly to you for just a few pieces. That is normally unheard of. You normally atleast have to go through a Wholesaler for the least, and that is even hard to do unless your a retailer or supplier or a very high volume installer that orders in Bulk.

[Fiona 0]

The Korean Coal Face:

 

OEM DVR Factory:

http://www.ctring.co.kr/profile.html

 

OEM Component Manufacturer:

http://www.kdei.co.kr/english/e_about.html

 

OEM Supplier:

http://7techcctv.co.kr/portal/products/IPCamera.aspx

 

Life time warranty on products:

http://sicam.co.kr/content.php?co_id=aboutus

 

Start-up Factory:

http://www.microc.co.kr/main_company.htm

 

Patent Holder:

http://www.avico.co.kr/2007/about/about02.htm

 

OEM to 10 Major Companies:

http://dals.kr/

 

Aerial Reconnaissance Cameras for Military Use:

http://www.photronic.co.kr/main/company.html

 

Industrial Cameras:

http://www.samwoosc.co.kr/about%20us.htm

 

Patented technology:

http://shico.co.kr/xe/?mid=companyintro

[rory 0]

Again .. how is this news?

I can name a dozen or so asian companies that OEM to other companies.

 

here is a big one:

http://www.dahuasecurity.com/

OEMs for many companies eg Intellicam, Q-See, etc

 

Another:

http://www.indigo-security.com/

OEMs for CNB, and many other companies.

 

Nothing to hide here ... I think everyone knows this stuff already.

At least many on this forum do.

If not, Alibaba helps

 

Bottom line is this .. if for example you live in the USA, you cant just buy direct from them .. even if you could it means buying from Asia .. its like any other industry and the reason why people buy retail. Eg. Why goto a food store when you can go right to the wholesaler? But more specific, why buy from Asia and have to deal with delays in shipping and extra expenses not to mention warranty/return issues ... when I can get it right in the US? Our clients dont care about the name ... just the end result.

 

Look, I buy a dahua DVR from a US distributor with their name on it. I get it cheaper than if I bought it myself from Dahua, why?? Because that guy in Miami ordered 10,000 of them .. I cant get close to that. Now, if I need support .. I have a choice .. i goto Dahua for support but thats because I know who makes it and thats the latest files etc .. most others just dont care as long as it works.