I throw myself on your tender mercies - Newbie

[shazam109 0]

OK - I am a newbie in the security camera field, not the computer field, but this looks like it is pretty involved. Thanks to those who take the time to answer my questions........

 

I have an apartment building, 3 floors and I need to put in security cameras. My budget (I will run the wires, etc) is roughly 4 grand. I have a windows XP box with a couple of terabyte drives as well. So, I basically need 7 cameras for the site. I need 1 outside camera (doesn't have to be vandal proof) but the inside ones need to be dome cameras, or at the least 4 need to be, I could put 2 way up on the wall to reduce my costs.

 

I have done some research and could go with either POE cameras or plug ins, but because 1 of the floors is fairly dark (basement) I need some cameras that can respond to that. The floors are 80 feet long - I am thinking on putting camera's on either end.

 

I am putting them in not because me have major crime issues (knock on wood), but just so we can keep track of comings and goings, and get a little more detailed if we think we have a problem. What I need is an idea of spec's for:

a: the dome cameras

b: the outside camera

 

POE - good idea or should I file it?

 

I want to run eyespyfx so my onsite manager can access the camera's in real time, and will have a big bandwidth IP connection to make sure that we can access them.

 

Thanks for your help - This site is great.........

[Numb-nuts 1]

I would call in someone to sell and specify the correct cameras or you could end up spending a lot of money for not a lot of system.

You don't give enough detailed information and a survey is needed. That is far from a domestic do it yourself job and there are far too many unknowns. If you must install it yourself, get a survey and professional recommendations of a professional that has visited the site.

 

I understand how you want to reduce your costs, but you can't expect the professionals on here to help you with what should be a commercial project. It's like taking your own food to a restaurant. Nobody minds you taking your own wine but your entire meal?

I don't thinks so do you?

[Campbell 0]

I would call in someone to sell and specify the correct cameras or you could end up spending a lot of money for not a lot of system.

You don't give enough detailed information and a survey is needed. That is far from a domestic do it yourself job and there are far too many unknowns. If you must install it yourself, get a survey and professional recommendations of a professional that has visited the site.

 

I understand how you want to reduce your costs, but you can't expect the professionals on here to help you with what should be a commercial project. It's like taking your own food to a restaurant. Nobody minds you taking your own wine but your entire meal?

I don't thinks so do you?

 

I'm not so finnicky about giving help however, Numbnuts is right about the lack of detail. Without a survey of the site, it's hard to give specifics. It should be left to a pro. You could be installing them in the wrong places, with bad FOV's wrong cameras in the wrong places.

 

On very basic information and on the basis that I love Vivoteks for quality images with a really good price.

 

4 x MD7560s at each end if this is what you want to do

1 x IP7361 outside to cover the door.

 

However, bear in mind with IP cameras, that your max run is about 300ft/100m of cable between switches and that PoE won't travel through a switch.

 

No idea what else you need... as I haven't seen the site. Thats on very basic information with my favourite cameras.

[shazam109 0]

Thanks for the replies so far - I'll try to give a little more informations etc. As an aside, just got TWO quotes from the professionals - one for $13,800, one for $12,500. Sooooo......, you can see that as a small business operator where I might have some incentive to do some of this stuff myself. I have no problems with people making margin - I am in business myself, I just question the AMOUNT of margin - the reason why I am here........

 

Anyways, without a site visit - a little more info - 2 cameras are strictly for the doors - they will be mounted in the stairwell going downstairs, looking out at the doors - so they focus 25 feet out, and that's it. In this place I think most cameras will do OK, we just want to see if people are using the intercom, or phones, or trying to sneak in without keys etc.

 

The others are mounted at each end of the hallways, looking toward each other. Because of the orientation of the building, and the windows at either end, one may have more light coming in, but the other will be directly opposite, so hopefully bright light will not be too much of an issue. We are not concerned so much with being able to ID from far away, because those people will eventually be walking closer to one camera or another. We are more concerned with patterns - ie if there are loud noises at night, and then we can see someone going into a particular suite, etc. Or if there is too much traffic from a suite (drug dealing) etc

 

The outside one is to watch the garbage cans, and to get a view of the opposing apartment buildings - because our bins get a LOT of traffic, and the other apartments don't have proper bins, - so I want some indication of traffic from the other buildings - not to individually ID people, but to point out to the city that there are problems with the other buildings, and to have some video to back it up.

 

Again, MANY thanks to the people who take the time to read this, and to post helpful hints etc - just trying to live, drive and survive like everyone else......

[thewireguys 3]

Thanks for the replies so far - I'll try to give a little more informations etc. As an aside, just got TWO quotes from the professionals - one for $13,800, one for $12,500. Sooooo......, you can see that as a small business operator where I might have some incentive to do some of this stuff myself. I have no problems with people making margin - I am in business myself, I just question the AMOUNT of margin - the reason why I am here........

 

Your paying for knowledge, experience, warranty and piece of mind.

 

7 IP cameras, server, VMS, network and install..... Those prices you got are not out of line.

[tomcctv 187]

OK - I am a newbie in the security camera field, not the computer field, but this looks like it is pretty involved. Thanks to those who take the time to answer my questions........

 

I have an apartment building, 3 floors and I need to put in security cameras. My budget (I will run the wires, etc) is roughly 4 grand. I have a windows XP box with a couple of terabyte drives as well. So, I basically need 7 cameras for the site. I need 1 outside camera (doesn't have to be vandal proof) but the inside ones need to be dome cameras, or at the least 4 need to be, I could put 2 way up on the wall to reduce my costs.

 

I have done some research and could go with either POE cameras or plug ins, but because 1 of the floors is fairly dark (basement) I need some cameras that can respond to that. The floors are 80 feet long - I am thinking on putting camera's on either end.

 

I am putting them in not because me have major crime issues (knock on wood), but just so we can keep track of comings and goings, and get a little more detailed if we think we have a problem. What I need is an idea of spec's for:

a: the dome cameras

b: the outside camera

 

POE - good idea or should I file it?

 

I want to run eyespyfx so my onsite manager can access the camera's in real time, and will have a big bandwidth IP connection to make sure that we can access them.

 

Thanks for your help - This site is great.........

 

 

4k is a good budget ... you get people on here wanting the same as you with a budget of $600.

 

we just need some more info. i.e how far are your cameras going to be from your dvr/nvr. and also is pc upto the task to run your system. with your budget i would go with a hybrid dvr/nvr. (you can do more with your budget) Dahua hybrid dvr is a good little unit and CNB cameras will be a good place to start with your homework.

[shazam109 0]

Sorry - re: prices - no VMS, no server - that's done by me.....

 

Anyways, DON'T want to be berated by people in the industry, just want a little help because everyone does it differently. And there is room for everyone - just want a little advice on camera's etc and I'll take it from there - If I f*** it up, I'm a big boy and I'll take my medicine.

[thewireguys 3]

http://www.eyespyfx.com/about.html

 

That looks like a mobile phone view not a true recording VMS.

 

FYI if you go with a VMS like Exacq you will get a full VMS solution with mobile viewing. If your installing cameras and computer there is no reason you shouldn't record the cameras. If you don't one day you wish you would have.

[tomcctv 187]

Sorry - re: prices - no VMS, no server - that's done by me.....

 

Anyways, DON'T want to be berated by people in the industry, just want a little help because everyone does it differently. And there is room for everyone - just want a little advice on camera's etc and I'll take it from there - If I f*** it up, I'm a big boy and I'll take my medicine.

 

 

 

shazam. i can see this being a long post. you have asked weather to go poe or not so more info is needed.

 

If I f*** it up, I'm a big boy and I'll take my medicine.

 

 

you dont need to take your medicine or have that expence. if you can give the info needed to help you.

 

info like how far are your cameras from your dvr/nvr the spec of your existing pc. do you have a network inplace.

[Soundy 1]

Nobody's berating you, just pointing out that those prices are pretty standard once you factor in labour, time and materials. You may look at it and think, "hmm, should be easy to cable from here to there" and then find it takes four times longer than you expected... the professional looks at it and plots out what's going to actually be required to get the cable from here to there and comes up with a more accurate estimate of time based on his own experience.

 

Even without the VMS, labour could add up fast, depending on the installation. If conduit is required, for example, that can be time-consuming. Concrete or brick construction takes longer to work with than woodframe. Solid vs. drop ceilings slow things down. if plenum/FT6 cable is required, that can increase costs significantly. It's not ALL margin.

 

Edit: note that professional labour quotes will usually include the use of proper equipment for safe work... for example, rental of a manlift, if it's going to be needed for outside work. A DIYer may be fine working two stories up off a ladder... if a pro does it, and WCB sees it, $#!t will hit the fan. If he falls and gets hurt, it's even worse.

[shazam109 0]

Thanks gentlemen for the posts. Definitely gives me something to work with.

 

As for the cable runs - down hallways where the conduit tucks up into the corner of the hallway run - just tuck it up in there and badda-boom. Also, have an electrician buddy with access to conduit and cable at wholesale prices. I'll leave pulls in each conduit so I can add if required.

 

Have made tons of network cables before so that is OK. Gotta drill through two stick floors but again, the electrician buddy is coming in handy - Total longest run is maybe 170 feet, maybe.

 

The primary video recorder will still be the computer (running whatever software) but the eyespyfx is just for an immediate look kind of thing, not as a conduit for viewing old streams etc. I'll use some other software platform for the video viewing, etc. (And, do it so I can do it remotely as well).

 

So my plan is to run 7 POE camera's with 7 different cables back to the POE router, which connects to the server, with twin 1 to 1.5 terabyte drives, running windows xp - 4gig RAM on motherboard, 64g SSD for OS. Running Shaw Extreme superfast interet connection for good throughput. I should be OK.

 

Thanks for the hints on the cameras, any other suggestions would be appreciated, and AGAIN, don't get me wrong on the professional thing - my day job is as a pharmacist, so I totally get that, but with the high cost of health care, I can't begrudge people educating themselves sometimes about alternatives with respect to the way overpriced medications that the drug companies flog. I'm just in the same boat, roles reversed this time........

 

regards

[Numb-nuts 1]

Okay here is my suggestion, if you've had quotes, the suppliers must have put forward scheme proposals of some sort. That would be a good place to start your planning. Doing the install work yourself will save you considerably, I am suggesting you get in a professional to design your scheme for you and prescribe which equipment you should be buying. That is NOT going to cost you $12,000 or more.

 

I think we all understand how when you have the ability to perform the installation, you would want to do it yourself, but the important thing is that if you do, it should be effective for you, or you might just as well not bother. Decide on a budget lower and upper limit for equipment and approach a designer specifier. They will either tell you to go away and rethink your budget or design a scheme within it.

 

Good luck.

[RedSq 0]

Option 1:

Use encoder (something like Axis 24* series) with analog cameras. You may find a good deal on them on eBay occasionally.

Pros - you can use any analog cameras to suit your needs. We've used CNB MonaLisa domes for one project and it worked out OK. Per channel cost in this case is slightly less if not the same vs. all IP cameras.

Cons - single point of failure (encoder). You are limited to D1 resolution.

 

Option 2:

All IP cameras + PoE switch.

For budget install I can recommend ACTi. Just make sure you get corresponding brackets for your installation (gang box, wall mount or suspended ceiling)

We used ACTi outdoor bullets for last project and it worked out pretty good - wide angle lens gives good coverage. Their indoor domes are also not bad and decently priced.

You can also look a Vivotek and Brickcom cameras.

[Nimrod 0]

shazam109, You are getting some of the worst advice for a CCTV install in an apartment building i have ever seen. This is coming from someone who had a 2 story building with a basement like you have. I did my own system and it had very good coverage, not like the lackluster knee jerk IP camera system you are being advised on.

 

To do this job right you need a mix of about 80% analog cameras and 20% IP.

 

For a frame of reference i used Ganz cameras ZC-D1049EHA for indoors and nothing worth mentioning for outdoors.

 

http://www.reytecimaging.com/ProductImages/Hiresdomes/smzcdome.pdf

 

The short specs of this camera are.

BW only

.3 Lux

570 lines

4 to 9mm zoom

 

I used these in the hallways that were 4 to 5 feet wide, painted white, and had double 4ft 40 watt bulbs every 8 to 10 feet. Amazingly the .3Lux cameras did not have enough sensitivity for a good image unless i was directly under the 4ft lights. And just like you i had a basement that was dark compared to the hallways. I had to have 4 ft light fixtures very close to the washers and dryers to get a good picture. Trying to get a good shot of the storage units down there was almost imposable and in fact i could not do it with these cameras.

 

The reason i told you that story is to show you that IP cameras are just plain wrong for this application for 2 reasons. First, hallways are only 4 or 5 feet wide, using a high resolution camera in a small field of view like this is silly. Second ,IP cameras have very poor light sensitivity, they would be a poor choice for the hallway and even worse for a dim basement. To get a IP camera with any kind of sensitivity you have to spend around $800. If you try to improve the lighting to use lower cost IP cameras with poor sensitivity you will pay for it on your electric bill. Mine was the cost of a small mortgage as it was, as i am sure yours is.

 

As for the outdoors. Like you i had problems with the dumpster area, some tenants were to lazy to go all the way to the dumpster, the neighbors liked to use it, and some people just drove by and took bags of garbage out of there car.

 

This may be a good area for a megapixel IP camera or 2 as you are trying to capture many different things from several directions. At the time i did my system megapixel IP cameras were just about unheard of. Since i do not know what your dumpster layout is, to give you some ideas i will describe my system. To take care of the tenants i had good camera coverage inside at every door so i knew who was going to dumpster. Outside i had one camera on street level overall view of apt door and dumpster for seeing who did not put garbage in dumpster. On top of the 2 story building i had a slightly wider angle camera pointed down on dumpster were i could see an area of several houses wide. I was not trying for identification of these people, i just wanted to know what house they came out of. When they dumped there garbage in my dumpster i would go out and take there garbage and put it back in front of there house.

 

The only problem i did not solve was the drive up dumpers, i would have needed to install a camera just for license plates and it was rarely the same people twice anyway.

 

If you want to identify people who came out of other buildings with analog cameras you can not have a field of view wider than about 5 feet or so. This could take several analog cameras to cover the dumpster were one or 2 megapixel would work nicely. Also during the day there is plenty of light for IP cameras and most people do not fool with garbage at night. If you post a picture or 2 of your dumpster area and give some dimensions maybe i could be more specific.

 

OK back to the inside were the so called professionals recommended the IP camera system with dueling cross beams for covering your 70 foot hallway. I can not tell you how ill this makes me. Use the right camera for the right job, and this job requires analog cameras. With your dual crossbeam system you will have a very poor view of what is going on in the hallway other than someone appears to be there depending on were in the hallway they are.

 

My hallways were 100 feet long and that was 5 apartments in a row each end of the hallway had a outside door and a apt door so 2 cameras took care of outside doors and 2 apartments. I tried shooting down the halls with various lens settings but figured out real quick that long narrow halls do not lend then selves to good video coverage. Cameras look out in a V pattern and do not lend them self to this situation very well. You must use expensive megapixel cameras looking at each other to get any kind of view, and a soso one at that. Well since analog cameras are 1/3 or less the cost of megapixel you can put in more of them and get great coverage instead of soso. My solution was put in 3 more analog cameras in hallway covering the other 3 apartments and bits of hallway near them. I now knew exactly who was were and when, with good facial recognition at every apartment.

 

In the basement i put one camera to cover the washers and another one for dryers mounted for a overall view of each area. I had another camera focused on the stairs for good facial recognition so i already knew who they were. Then for the final touch, i put cameras directly above the washers and dryers to watch the coin slots and controls, to see who was beating up the machines. And once again, for these views separate light sensitive cameras are needed, not just one big stupid unable to see anything meagabuck camera.

 

 

These are very good analog cameras that are recommended here allot. They are less money than the Ganz i bought and are at least twice as good. These cameras will work in your basement.

 

CNB DBM-24VF 1/3" 600TVL Indoor true day/night DC Iris M13 2.8-10.5mm .005 lux

 

CNB VCM-24VF 1/3" 600TVL Outdoor Vandal true day/night DC Iris M13 2.8-10.5mm .005

 

When you run conduit down the hallway put a put a big like 6x6 junction box about 10ft from each doorway on both sides to make it easy to come out of it to a camera. And use conduit at least twice as big as you think you need, for future expansion and ease of pull. Use a 6x6 so you can run RG59U if you want and not kink it.

 

Also if you have a mailbox area put a camera above them looking down to see what there hands are doing. And if you have a entrance way with a security door put a camera in there to.

 

You will be amazed at the piece of mind a good camera system gives you, and you will never say i wish i had less cameras.

[thewireguys 3]

Nimrod...... Interesting comments and you have some valid points. I would pull all UTP even if your going analog. I disagree on the analog being enough for hallways but to each is own. Also the CNBs are well, not the best but do have a good price.

[Numb-nuts 1]

Like I said before, you need a properly planned scheme before you go buying anything or you could end up with a system that doesn't really do what you want properly.

[Nimrod 0]

I decided to get scientific on megapixel cameras to see if they would work for this application, of placing 2 megapixel cameras in hall facing each other for full coverage.

 

His specs.

80 foot long halls.

Wants dome cameras.

Wants POE.

 

From experience i can say a camera of .1 lux sensitivity is needed. Assume 1/2 inch sensor is needed for this sensitivity for lens calculations.

Assume 5 foot wide halls.

 

Assume cameras are placed 10 feet from each end of hall facing each other. the distance to the hall halfway point is 30 foot from camera. At this point each camera must have a FOV of 5ft. Using lens calculator this works out to 38.4mm. The far end of the hallway is 70 feet away from each camera and has the worst pixels per foot. Using the lens calculator again i find that a 38.4mm lens at 70ft has a FOV of 11.67ft. After trying a few numbers i find that a megapixel camera with a horizontal resolution of 1280 will give a pix/ft of aprox 110, a very good number for facial recognition.

 

For reference an analog camera focused on the doors per my write up would give 480tvl / 5ft = 96 pix/ft, also very good.

 

Now the bad news, you can not buy the megapixel camera specified. Or at least i could not find it.

 

Dome

POE

.1 lux

38.4mm lens for 1/2 in sensor. (this is the hardest part, no one offers this lens)

 

I know many of you use cameras facing each other in hallways for full coverage. Here is your chance to be a hero, and show the rest of us a camera that would actually do the job.

[thewireguys 3]

I decided to get scientific on megapixel cameras to see if they would work for this application, of placing 2 megapixel cameras in hall facing each other for full coverage.

 

His specs.

80 foot long halls.

Wants dome cameras.

Wants POE.

 

From experience i can say a camera of .1 lux sensitivity is needed. Assume 1/2 inch sensor is needed for this sensitivity for lens calculations.

Assume 5 foot wide halls.

 

Assume cameras are placed 10 feet from each end of hall facing each other. the distance to the hall halfway point is 30 foot from camera. At this point each camera must have a FOV of 5ft. Using lens calculator this works out to 38.4mm. The far end of the hallway is 70 feet away from each camera and has the worst pixels per foot. Using the lens calculator again i find that a 38.4mm lens at 70ft has a FOV of 11.67ft. After trying a few numbers i find that a megapixel camera with a horizontal resolution of 1280 will give a pix/ft of aprox 110, a very good number for facial recognition.

 

For reference an analog camera focused on the doors per my write up would give 480tvl / 5ft = 96 pix/ft, also very good.

 

Now the bad news, you can not buy the megapixel camera specified. Or at least i could not find it.

 

Dome

POE

.1 lux

38.4mm lens for 1/2 in sensor. (this is the hardest part, no one offers this lens)

 

I know many of you use cameras facing each other in hallways for full coverage. Here is your chance to be a hero, and show the rest of us a camera that would actually do the job.

 

Sorry I am not about to give out free design info like this on the internet but I can tell you it can be done. Right now I am looking at a demo system that I just installed for a hotel. 5MP camera 100ft hall way works very very well.

 

Everything comes down to proper design using the right equipment for the right location.

[Nimrod 0]

I decided to get scientific on megapixel cameras to see if they would work for this application, of placing 2 megapixel cameras in hall facing each other for full coverage.

 

His specs.

80 foot long halls.

Wants dome cameras.

Wants POE.

 

From experience i can say a camera of .1 lux sensitivity is needed. Assume 1/2 inch sensor is needed for this sensitivity for lens calculations.

Assume 5 foot wide halls.

 

Assume cameras are placed 10 feet from each end of hall facing each other. the distance to the hall halfway point is 30 foot from camera. At this point each camera must have a FOV of 5ft. Using lens calculator this works out to 38.4mm. The far end of the hallway is 70 feet away from each camera and has the worst pixels per foot. Using the lens calculator again i find that a 38.4mm lens at 70ft has a FOV of 11.67ft. After trying a few numbers i find that a megapixel camera with a horizontal resolution of 1280 will give a pix/ft of aprox 110, a very good number for facial recognition.

 

For reference an analog camera focused on the doors per my write up would give 480tvl / 5ft = 96 pix/ft, also very good.

 

Now the bad news, you can not buy the megapixel camera specified. Or at least i could not find it.

 

Dome

POE

.1 lux

38.4mm lens for 1/2 in sensor. (this is the hardest part, no one offers this lens)

 

I know many of you use cameras facing each other in hallways for full coverage. Here is your chance to be a hero, and show the rest of us a camera that would actually do the job.

 

Sorry I am not about to give out free design info like this on the internet but I can tell you it can be done. Right now I am looking at a demo system that I just installed for a hotel. 5MP camera 100ft hall way works very very well.

 

Everything comes down to proper design using the right equipment for the right location.

 

 

 

Your funny, The fact is you are not using the proper camera or the right design for the job. Because you can not buy it!!!

 

The only reason you are getting away with using a camera with such a poorly matched lens for the job, is because you are over compensating with a whopping 5mp camera, all for a tiny 5 foot wide hallway. Do you have any idea how silly this is. And what about the poor schmuck who has to pay 4X the cost for your mismatched design.

[Soundy 1]

I'll give you the answer, because it's dead simple and doesn't require sharing any "trade secrets":

 

Megapixel box camera:

 

Appropriate megapixel lens (this one is rated 8-80mm for 1/2" at 3MP, manual/auto iris and standard or day/night variations available):

 

In-ceiling dome enclosure (such as this Pelco DF-:

[Campbell 0]

You don't need facial recognition the entire length of the hall...

 

It's a hall. It has 2 walls and 1 exit at each end... They aren't going to be Shadowcat from Xmen and walk through the walls. They'll pass it on the way in and on the way out.

[Soundy 1]

You don't need facial recognition the entire length of the hall...

 

It's a hall. It has 2 walls and 1 exit at each end... They aren't going to be Shadowcat from Xmen and walk through the walls. They'll pass it on the way in and on the way out.

 

(And... excellent point, too )

[thewireguys 3]

 

Your funny, The fact is you are not using the proper camera or the right design for the job. Because you can not buy it!!!

 

The only reason you are getting away with using a camera with such a poorly matched lens for the job, is because you are over compensating with a whopping 5mp camera, all for a tiny 5 foot wide hallway. Do you have any idea how silly this is. And what about the poor schmuck who has to pay 4X the cost for your mismatched design.

 

Wow.... You know nothing about this job so how can you tell me how to design it? You might want to tone it down a little bit since you have know clue what the customer wants or how wide the hallway is.

 

.1 lux for a hotel hallway? do the customers use flashlights to find the rooms?

[Nimrod 0]

“Appropriate megapixel lens (this one is rated 8-80mm for 1/2" at 3MP, manual/auto iris and standard or day/night variations available):”

 

Good job soundy, i could not find a camera with the proper lens. However with no model number i could not find a lux spec and also we need this lens on a 1280x1024 or 1280x720 camera for a proper fit to the job without making the customer overpay.

[Soundy 1]

“Appropriate megapixel lens (this one is rated 8-80mm for 1/2" at 3MP, manual/auto iris and standard or day/night variations available):”

 

Good job soundy, i could not find a camera with the proper lens.

Note that I suggested a box camera with C/CS lens... so there's really no limitation on the lens size or selection.

 

However with no model number i could not find a lux spec and also we need this lens on a 1280x1024 or 1280x720 camera for a proper fit to the job without making the customer overpay.

It doesn't have to be THAT camera, that was just a generic suggestion (I was searching for a picture of a megapixel box cam). Use whatever model suits the job.

 

The point was, you're limited to lens sizes that will fit when using a standard "dome camera", so... think outside the box (pun intended) and put a box cam and lens inside a dome housing.