How to optimize an HDip Solution

[tesc_cctvpro 0]

I would like to get views from others on what key issues are considered important for optimizing an HDip solution.

 

Hopefully the discussion will not deteriorate into a this brand vs that brand debate - just insights into issues that have been responsible for problems in HDip installs.

 

Thanks in advance

[Soundy 1]

Kind of a vague question... what part of it are you trying to optimize? What are the requirements (activity, ID, fast movement, etc.)? What are the potential problems with that particular site (site size, layout, lighting, potential for EMI, power stability, etc.)?

 

It's kind of like asking how to optimize a road... who are you optimizing for? Commuters, racers, truckers? What sort of road is it - multilane, single lane? Paved or gravel?

 

Too many variables, not enough specifics.

[EarlT 0]

I think the number one issue with HDIP or IP cameras in general is the need for standardization.

[tesc_cctvpro 0]

I think the number one issue with HDIP or IP cameras in general is the need for standardization.

 

Thanks!

[tesc_cctvpro 0]

Kind of a vague question... what part of it are you trying to optimize?

 

The parts that gave you problems in the past!

 

What are the requirements (activity, ID, fast movement, etc.)? What are the potential problems with that particular site (site size, layout, lighting, potential for EMI, power stability, etc.)?

 

There is no particular site

 

It's kind of like asking how to optimize a road... who are you optimizing for? Commuters, racers, truckers? What sort of road is it - multilane, single lane? Paved or gravel?

Too many variables, not enough specifics.

 

In short things to avoid when doing Hdip --- because these things have bitten you before --- so experience says, make sure this aspect doesn't become a problem.

 

One response stated : Standardization -- good, that's why we have chosen a supplier with a total solution that doesn't start and end with the camera - because the current status would require us to mix and match like a puzzle.

 

So I can say ----- Consider issues of compatibility between the hardware and software you select. that's one sort of response I was looking for.

[Soundy 1]

Kind of a vague question... what part of it are you trying to optimize?

 

The parts that gave you problems in the past!

That always varies depending on the site and the job... although in general, the single biggest headache is actually running the cables.

 

What are the requirements (activity, ID, fast movement, etc.)? What are the potential problems with that particular site (site size, layout, lighting, potential for EMI, power stability, etc.)?

 

There is no particular site

That's the point: "optimizing" an installation depends on the specific installation and its needs. There is no one generic one-size-fits-all answer to this question.

 

In short things to avoid when doing Hdip --- because these things have bitten you before --- so experience says, make sure this aspect doesn't become a problem.

The only things that have really "bitten" me (and they were almost universally someone else's decisions, against my advice) are little things, like... using a non-MP lens on an MP camera, or a non-IR lens on a TDN camera... using "green" drives in a RAID array... not really "optimization" factors.

 

One response stated : Standardization -- good, that's why we have chosen a supplier with a total solution that doesn't start and end with the camera - because the current status would require us to mix and match like a puzzle.

I think by "standardization" he's more referring to the concept that camera and NVR manufacturers need to HAVE a standard that everyone can abide by, so that you don't have to even think about compatibility. Analog video, for example, has two: PAL and NTSC. As long as you get all your components with the right one for your area (usually easy enough unless you're buying from offshore fleaBay seller), you're guaranteed that the parts will work together.

 

But that's not really "optimization" either.

 

So I can say ----- Consider issues of compatibility between the hardware and software you select. that's one sort of response I was looking for.

That's more of a "pitfalls" question, not an "optimization" one. Compatibility actually falls more under "proper planning"... fortunately the DVR/NVR we use has excellent compatibility with just about every mainstream IP camera out there, so a cursory check of the compatibility list usually suffices there.

[tomcctv 187]

standardization. whould that be a good thing. no not at all. why have every company working from the same page. will that include pattents on new tech

 

good, that's why we have chosen a supplier with a total solution that doesn't start and end with the camera - because the current status would require us to mix and match like a puzzle.

 

 

mix and match is a good thing with ip. are you telling me your supplier will do the VMS or NVR and cameras but not allow othe manufacture of cameras to use there product. he will have problems selling that.

[Soundy 1]

As for "standardization" - that too, is a very broad topic. Most cameras support one of the same three standards, for example: M12, M13, and C/CS. So are we talking about standardization in form factor? Physical interface? Electrical interface? Data interface? Video format? Stream format? Communication format? Communication language? And so on and on and on...

[EarlT 0]

Lets just narrow one aspect of Standardization to interconnectivity. If every camera would work with every dvr/nvr with basic ability. Im talking just a basic view and record capability. The different companies could use Features to make them stand apart.

[tomcctv 187]

Lets just narrow one aspect of Standardization to interconnectivity. If every camera would work with every dvr/nvr with basic ability. Im talking just a basic view and record capability. The different companies could use Features to make them stand apart.

 

 

 

the problem then will be ip would become a plug and play box system. ok in a way it is but that should just be for home use. just like the new dahua plug and play hybrid no switch or hub and poe from nvr/dvr

[EarlT 0]

the problem then will be ip would become a plug and play box system. ok in a way it is but that should just be for home use. just like the new dahua plug and play hybrid no switch or hub and poe from nvr/dvr

 

 

I think ONVIF will take care of the interconnectivity issues. It's just like every other technology that consumers find a use for. It will eventually be where even the high quality camera makers will want to open their market to consumers. It all comes down to $$$$.

[tesc_cctvpro 0]

Kind of a vague question... what part of it are you trying to optimize?

 

The parts that gave you problems in the past!

That always varies depending on the site and the job... although in general, the single biggest headache is actually running the cables.

 

What are the requirements (activity, ID, fast movement, etc.)? What are the potential problems with that particular site (site size, layout, lighting, potential for EMI, power stability, etc.)?

 

There is no particular site

That's the point: "optimizing" an installation depends on the specific installation and its needs. There is no one generic one-size-fits-all answer to this question.

 

In short things to avoid when doing Hdip --- because these things have bitten you before --- so experience says, make sure this aspect doesn't become a problem.

The only things that have really "bitten" me (and they were almost universally someone else's decisions, against my advice) are little things, like... using a non-MP lens on an MP camera, or a non-IR lens on a TDN camera... using "green" drives in a RAID array... not really "optimization" factors.

 

One response stated : Standardization -- good, that's why we have chosen a supplier with a total solution that doesn't start and end with the camera - because the current status would require us to mix and match like a puzzle.

I think by "standardization" he's more referring to the concept that camera and NVR manufacturers need to HAVE a standard that everyone can abide by, so that you don't have to even think about compatibility. Analog video, for example, has two: PAL and NTSC. As long as you get all your components with the right one for your area (usually easy enough unless you're buying from offshore fleaBay seller), you're guaranteed that the parts will work together.

 

But that's not really "optimization" either.

 

So I can say ----- Consider issues of compatibility between the hardware and software you select. that's one sort of response I was looking for.

That's more of a "pitfalls" question, not an "optimization" one. Compatibility actually falls more under "proper planning"... fortunately the DVR/NVR we use has excellent compatibility with just about every mainstream IP camera out there, so a cursory check of the compatibility list usually suffices there.

 

I could respond to so much of this by adopting a different definition of the term optimization, than what you have!

 

But I will just reproduce a sentence describing optimization problem solving: "seek values of the variables that lead to an optimal value of the function that is to be optimized"

 

In this sense, when you mention HD lens --- that is a variable that seeks to optimize the delivery of HD Video!

 

IR lens - now that's actually a variable that seeks to optimize vision at around 850nm light frequency - not HD, but I can see where it fits in.

 

You misinterpret, I am interested in values which optimize the delivery of HD video, not optimizing an installation. For instance in stead of mentioning cable laying issues - discusses the type and specification of cable that is optimal for the delivery of HD video.

 

I won't respond to each point - because it's obviously based on your perception as to the meaning of optimization!

[tesc_cctvpro 0]

standardization. whould that be a good thing. no not at all. why have every company working from the same page. will that include pattents on new tech

 

good, that's why we have chosen a supplier with a total solution that doesn't start and end with the camera - because the current status would require us to mix and match like a puzzle.

 

 

mix and match is a good thing with ip. are you telling me your supplier will do the VMS or NVR and cameras but not allow othe manufacture of cameras to use there product. he will have problems selling that.

 

Why do you feel that standardization in the way that HD is optimally delivered, will not be a good thing?

 

For instance ---- When it becomes an accepted standard that HD cameras should be fitted with HD lenses in order to optimally deliver and view HD video, is that a bad thing? How would this standard impact patents, hinder development and patents in HD cameras or lenses?

 

I never mentioned anything about my supplier and their VMS or NVR . The point is that currently many CMS/VMS do not support other manufacturers products. Some do many don't, so my choice of supplier avoids the situation of having to find different components that will work together. ONVIF should move us in that direction, and in the foreseeable future being tied in to a single manufacturer will not be crucial.

 

I get the sense that you are way too interested in what i do and who i buy from,and my business methodology- to make an objective contribution- which i believe you surely could

[tesc_cctvpro 0]

As for "standardization" - that too, is a very broad topic. Most cameras support one of the same three standards, for example: M12, M13, and C/CS. So are we talking about standardization in form factor? Physical interface? Electrical interface? Data interface? Video format? Stream format? Communication format? Communication language? And so on and on and on...

 

If you apply mind to the areas of delivering HD video in which standardization would matter - it wouldn't be so broad!

[tesc_cctvpro 0]

Lets just narrow one aspect of Standardization to interconnectivity. If every camera would work with every dvr/nvr with basic ability. Im talking just a basic view and record capability. The different companies could use Features to make them stand apart.

 

 

 

the problem then will be ip would become a plug and play box system. ok in a way it is but that should just be for home use. just like the new dahua plug and play hybrid no switch or hub and poe from nvr/dvr

 

Many different manufacturers produce network switches, has that standardization hindered or accelerated the development and adoption of network technologies?

 

Yet that is a mute point - because firstly we are not discussing ip, plug and play or dahua hybrids. I am looking to variables that will optimize the delivery of HD Video.

[Soundy 1]

As for "standardization" - that too, is a very broad topic. Most cameras support one of the same three standards, for example: M12, M13, and C/CS. So are we talking about standardization in form factor? Physical interface? Electrical interface? Data interface? Video format? Stream format? Communication format? Communication language? And so on and on and on...

 

If you apply mind to the areas of delivering HD video in which standardization would matter - it wouldn't be so broad!

Ah, but you didn't specify "delivering HD video" initially - you asked, "what key issues are considered important for optimizing an HDip solution."

 

That was the whole point of my questions - trying to narrow down what part of the ENTIRE "solution" you were looking to optimize. I could have gone on at length about optimizing the physical installation process itself, or optimizing the network design for less traffic, or optimizing the aesthetics of the installation... and it wouldn't have been what you were looking for.

 

IR lens - now that's actually a variable that seeks to optimize vision at around 850nm light frequency - not HD, but I can see where it fits in.

That's actually not what an "IR lens" is. The proper term is "IR-corrected", also known as a "day/night lens". The idea is that IR light normally focuses slightly "shorter" than visible light (ie. will focus in front of the sensor, rather than ON it), which will cause a day/night camera to appear out-of-focus when it switches to night mode... so the lens is designed, via optics and/or coatings, to "correct" the IR and cause it to focus on the same plane as the visible light.

 

The rest of it, I'll address later, as I have to go out again now...

[tesc_cctvpro 0]

Ah, but you didn't specify "delivering HD video" initially - you asked, "what key issues are considered important for optimizing an HDip solution."

 

I agree - That's why I spent some time trying to narrow it down - given your feedback. Actually I would include the aspect of network configuration as a variable that would optimize delivery of HD.

 

 

 

 

That's actually not what an "IR lens" is. The proper term is "IR-corrected", also known as a "day/night lens". The idea is that IR light normally focuses slightly "shorter" than visible light (ie. will focus in front of the sensor, rather than ON it), which will cause a day/night camera to appear out-of-focus when it switches to night mode... so the lens is designed, via optics and/or coatings, to "correct" the IR and cause it to focus on the same plane as the visible light.

 

Exactly as i said ---- you put an IR lens on a camera to optimize night vision.

[Soundy 1]

"Night vision" is a misnomer, a term mis-applied by marketers Switching to monochome does not give a camera "night vision"; neither does adding IR LEDs.

 

An IR corrected lens is intended to MINIMIZE issues for ICR cameras in MONOCHROME mode. This can also be aided by cameras with auto-backfocus that readjust the focus when switching modes... but again, that's a step to minimize an optics issue.

[rory 0]

Exactly as i said ---- you put an IR lens on a camera to optimize night vision.

Not really, it helps with the focus shift under IR in some cases, but otherwise not every camera used for night apps warrant the need of an IR corrected lens, or even IR as mentioned. Ive used IR corrected lenses and they dont always work as they claim anyway, in most cases there is still nothing like a hands on approach, and a little off focus in either visible light or near infrared light is generally required. Either way, optimizing a day night camera will require setup during the day and the night, and if it uses Infrared, under pitch dark conditions. One other way to optimize a Day Night camera for IR conditions is in addition to using a sensitive chip among other features, and removing the IR cut filter, is using an IR pass filter when the IR cut filter is removed.

[tesc_cctvpro 0]

Exactly as i said ---- you put an IR lens on a camera to optimize night vision.

Not really, it helps with the focus shift under IR in some cases, but otherwise not every camera used for night apps warrant the need of an IR corrected lens, or even IR as mentioned. Ive used IR corrected lenses and they dont always work as they claim anyway, in most cases there is still nothing like a hands on approach, and a little off focus in either visible light or near infrared light is generally required. Either way, optimizing a day night camera will require setup during the day and the night, and if it uses Infrared, under pitch dark conditions. One other way to optimize a Day Night camera for IR conditions is in addition to using a sensitive chip among other features, and removing the IR cut filter, is using an IR pass filter when the IR cut filter is removed.

 

When one applies an IR lens it is intended to optimize the operation of the IR function, i haven't really seen IR operating in the day! So i guessed that any IR optimization was aimed at visuals in the night.

[rory 0]

When one applies an IR lens it is intended to optimize the operation of the IR function, i haven't really seen IR operating in the day! So i guessed that any IR optimization was aimed at visuals in the night.

 

IR can be used for indoors also, not just at night - in fact I normally focus my cameras for IR apps inside a garage in the daytime, and do the rest of the optimizing at night. But the point was that not all night vision cameras need Infrared, take BW cameras for example, I use them everywhere with no IR, or fixed lens cameras, dont need IR corrected lenses, there are many situations that they are just not even needed to begin with. And I was doing long range IR apps for years before IR lenses were even thought of, I had better images back then without trying to rely on some minimal effect from a supposed IR corrected lens. IR lenses these days are over marketed, over used, and still overpriced. In fact in my experience IR cameras of today suck compared to how they were before, not everything new is good.

[tesc_cctvpro 0]

When one applies an IR lens it is intended to optimize the operation of the IR function, i haven't really seen IR operating in the day! So i guessed that any IR optimization was aimed at visuals in the night.

 

IR can be used for indoors also, not just at night - in fact I normally focus my cameras for IR apps inside a garage in the daytime, and do the rest of the optimizing at night. But the point was that not all night vision cameras need Infrared, take BW cameras for example, I use them everywhere with no IR, or fixed lens cameras, dont need IR corrected lenses, there are many situations that they are just not even needed to begin with. And I was doing long range IR apps for years before IR lenses were even thought of, I had better images back then without trying to rely on some minimal effect from a supposed IR corrected lens. IR lenses these days are over marketed, over used, and still overpriced. In fact in my experience IR cameras of today suck compared to how they were before, not everything new is good.

 

No need to oversell ----- just stating that IR isn't always used at night is sufficient to modify my premise - because I locked into the night vision application. So I change to low light

 

But I did think the point of applying an IR lens was to optimize ----revision---- low light applications.

 

By the way --- you do realize that if it had been me expanding on IR Nightvision technology in a thread labelled how to optimize Hdip solution --- soundy would have already retitled this with terms like hijacking and trolling ----- LOL, just jesting --- neither here nor there to me!

[rory 0]

No need to oversell ----- just stating that IR isn't always used at night is sufficient to modify my premise - because I locked into the night vision application. So I change to low light

 

But I did think the point of applying an IR lens was to optimize ----revision---- low light applications.

 

I personally wouldnt say IR is for night or even low light, I would say its primarily for Pitch Dark applications. Although in some cases it can help under low light depending on the camera used, but most low light applications can get away with no IR as long as the cameras are sensitive enough - these days though alot of the single chip day night cameras produce so much noise under low light and even their latest Digital Noise Reduction then leads to other image distortions. Best day night camera is and always will be a dual Color and BW camera (aka Dual CCD though some may use CMOS now like with IP cameras).

[tesc_cctvpro 0]

No need to oversell ----- just stating that IR isn't always used at night is sufficient to modify my premise - because I locked into the night vision application. So I change to low light

 

But I did think the point of applying an IR lens was to optimize ----revision---- low light applications.

 

I personally wouldnt say IR is for night or even low light, I would say its primarily for Pitch Dark applications. Although in some cases it can help under low light depending on the camera used, but most low light applications can get away with no IR as long as the cameras are sensitive enough - these days though alot of the single chip day night cameras produce so much noise under low light and even their latest Digital Noise Reduction then leads to other image distortions. Best day night camera is and always will be a dual Color and BW camera (aka Dual CCD though some may use CMOS now like with IP cameras).

 

Yes about 5 years ago I bought a stupid simple dome camera and that thing without any IR put almost all the cameras I had to shame--- Indeed modern cameras can do well in low light, and are getting better ----

 

But again what is the point of putting an IR lens on a camera if not to optimize the IR function? In day or night or low light or pitch dark?

[rory 0]

But again what is the point of putting an IR lens on a camera if not to optimize the IR function? In day or night or low light or pitch dark?

Typically no point at all.