More than 4 cameras on a Dahua NVR?

[RickyGee 0]

Hi. I’m retired and helping a friend with a small restaurant/store (50X100) add a surveillance system. My first computer was a Commodore64 and I’ve built many desktops over the years and several wired and wireless networks as a hobbyist. I’ve also repaired hundreds of electronic devices like camcorders, dvrs, Tvs, etc. But this is my first surveillance system. Yup, a virgin.

 

I’ve spent many months and hundreds of hours learning and reading and researching. I have a new found respect for you guys that do this for a living; thousands of details to consider to do this right.

 

I carefully considered analog systems, timelapse (game) cameras, HD-SDI or HDcctv, and network options. This application will require 7-8 high resolution cameras using PoE and the budget is very tight (my labor is being essentially donated, though I expect some good meals to come…).

 

I have settled on a Dahua network system as it fits within the budget and meets the requirements. But I have a question.

 

All the Dahua (and private lable Dahua) NVRs show only 4ea RJ45 camera ports on the back, and a “network” port. This makes sense for NVRs marketed for 4 cameras, especially with PoE. But it is the same for NVRs marketed for 8 and even 16 cameras. Dahua’s tech info is nearly non-existent as they pass that responsibility apparently on to their retailers like Q-See to publish instructions. Q-See shows that additional cameras beyond 4 have to be connected to the NVR via a hub/switch/router to the network port, which suggests that the only difference between an NVR designed for 4 cameras, or 8, or 16 is the firmware installed and maybe the size of the buffer memory. Is that right, or have I missed something (other than the HDD capacity)?

 

Has anyone done this, added additional cameras via router to the network port on a Dahua NVR? All the cameras selected will be 2MP dome recording continuously during business hours and MD after hours.

 

I find it hard to believe that one can pump 15/30fps at 2MP from 4 cameras (H.264) simultaneously through one Ethernet port without packet loss or other issues.

 

If you have had success doing this, can you recommend the 802.11n wireless router that you used? I hope to offer my friend the option to connect to this system wirelessly using directional antennas from his house 400 yds away.

 

I’m sorry for the length of this. I hoped to answer most questions up front. Thanks for any help or advice.

[dexterash 0]

First, it depends on the resolution you want to record - D1, 720p or 1080p.

 

For example, 3216-P can do 4 x 1080p at 25 fps or 8 x 720p at 25fps (4 connected via integrated PoE and 4 connected via the integrated LAN, using a switch)

 

There are some newer versions that allow dynamic allocation of resources, so you can use, for example, 8 x 1080p at 12 fps

[buellwinkle 0]

First understand that regardless of how many 2MP cameras you have, you are limited to 120FPS on that NVR, so 8 cameras can only run at a max of 15 fps and you have obviously have to get the NVR that supports 8 cameras. I would not get the model with 4 PoE ports, or models with a P suffix. Just get their standard 8 port NVR and buy a nice 16 port PoE switch, I like the Zyxel ES1100-16P, catch it on sale and last week it was $99 (not today). To record 8 2MP cameras, say at 15 fps each continously will be exciting. It supports two hard drives, I would recomend as huge a drive as you can afford, at least 3TB hard drives. That should give you a week or two of recording time.

 

Now you want to connect this to his house so he can view remotely. Does he have complete line of site? If so, I would recomend Ubquiti Nanostation 5 or Engenius Tech, both lower end solution, not WiFi that are under $100 per side. These are outdoor bridges, not routers, don't know of any WiFi routers that will go 400yds, I have trouble getting mine to work 14 yds in my house. You plug in one of these into your switch (non-PoE) and then plug the other one into his home network. If you don't have complete line of site (and I mean a tree branch in the way can make it non-line of site), then you can try 900Mhz, more expensive, slower, interferance issues, but has better penetration.

[RickyGee 0]

I want to record at the camera's highest resolution possible, with 15fps minimum and a couple of locations that would benefit from 30fps due to the action. All the Dahua NVRs that I have reviewed claim that they can record 120fps@1080p, or 30fps/channel for a 4 channel system or, I'm guessing, 15fps for an 8 camera system, or 7fps for a 16.

 

Unless I find a compelling reason to use something else, I am planning on using the HDB3200C minidomes outside (2mp 16x9) and the HDW2100C (1.3mp 4x3) cameras inside, though the recorder may force me to record at 1080p and 720p.

 

My concern is connecting 4 cameras through a router to the single network port and what problems I might have with that. Should I be concerned? I haven't calculated the bit rates and I spose I should, but it just hits me as not good.

[RickyGee 0]

Thanks buellwinkle. And thanks also for the excellent reviews on your site. I learned a lot from them in my quest for knowledge and understanding.

 

Just curious why you suggested avoiding the PoE port versions of the NVR. Are they trouble, or does it just make more sense to save the money and spend it on a good PoE injector, since I'll have to get one for cameras 5 through 8 anyway. Trying to keep this simple as well as hold the cost down.

 

I was afraid that I'd get good advice like that on the wireless hook-up. He does have line of sight, but a skinny pocketbook. I was hoping to stretch 802.11n or perhaps the new 802.11ac signal, but I haven't spent enough time digging through those weeds, concentrating on the camera setup first.

 

So you don't see any issue with 4ea 1080p signals @15fps being fed through the switch and the single network port on the NVR?

[buellwinkle 0]

The traffic will not be on your router, don't understand why you are worried. The traffic will be contained by the switch. All the cameras, and the NVR will be on a single switch, the NVR plugs into a TV via HDMI. You don't even need to connect anyting to your router.

 

You do realize the hdb3200C are day cameras, can't use IR, you'll have to have pretty decent white lights on at night to capture anything. Even with street lights, may be marginal performance. I would wait until next year, the year of the Snake and get the hfw3200s due out next month. Same sensor, but has IR leds and is a day/night camera.

 

I do like those hdw2100, cool little cameras.

 

The reason for avoiding the NVR with the built in PoE switch is now you have 2 seperate switches, meaning 4 + NVR are on one internal switch, 4 on another so any traffic from one switch will feed into the other, all through a 100Mbps straw. Besides, the price of the 16 port switch vs 8 port may be $50 (when on sale). The other issue is wiring. I like to have my router and switches in one place, the NVR may be totally somewhere else and I want the option to move it and moving it may mean moving 9 ethernet cables, ouch. Just looks cleaner than having an NVR under a TV with 9 ethernet wires coming out behind the TV which already has it's own set of wires to deal with.

[RickyGee 0]

Gotcha. Thanks. Are you going to get one of those new cameras when they come out an put it through the ringer? I saw the problems with IR bleed on some of the vandal domes out there and was concerned about that. The front patio area and back of the building are pretty well lit so I thought the non-IR sensor would work okay for the limited (60') range they have to cover at night. But the project won't go forward for a month or two... might be worth waiting for.

 

If I can ask one more dumb question, if I understand what you are suggesting, I would connect all the cameras to the PoE switch and make just one ethernet connection from the switch to the NVR via the network port, rather than using the camera ports on the NVR? (if ignorance was painful, I'd need morphine...). Thanks again.

[buellwinkle 0]

Their IR domes, at least the 3MP I have sitting next to me in my office is bad, same as the 1.3MP I reviewed. It gets a halo from the IR lights, don't know why. If I hold the camera straight out in my hand it doesn't do it, if I mount it seems to reflect back somehow and cause this. I helped one person with this problem and he has light colored eaves like me and he had to mount much lower and away from the eave to solve the problem. Also, doesn't seem to focus as sharp as say my 3MP Dahua bullet, again, same problem other's have mentioned. You can get it better than the way they are shipped from China, but not perfect and I like a real crisp image. BTW, the 2MP minidome has the same issue, sort of sharp in the center, not so sharp towards the edge, at least not like the bullets. They claimed to have fixed this issue with their new 2MP IR Dome and those just became available, just haven't heard from anyone if they are better. I played with it briefly and I didn't see the halo but I didn't have physical access to the camera. The even have a model with motorized focus and varifocal, but I found it tedious, doesn't focus perfectly and you have to tap the + and - buttons to get it close, frankly, I would just get the manual focus. It's not great like the Axis P33, it's more like the frustrations I had focusing the Brickcom with the same feature.

 

I'll review the new 2MP mini-bullet as soon as I can get my hands on one.

 

The NVR is a personal choice, just trying to give you my reason why I don't the NVR and the switch in the same location. I assume that people that want to buy the NVR solution want to plug it into a monitor/TV via HDMI as the web interface is poor and most people don't take to PSS. If I have a TV and there's already a bunch of wires running to it for other reasons, DVD player, cable box, XBox, whatever, not sure I want to run all my ethernet there too. Then what if I change my mind on where the TV goes, do I have to re-run all my Ethernet? So I believe all the Ethernet cables should go to a closet, especially in a business environment and that's where you put the PoE switch, battery backup that I'm sure you'll want, phone systems may go in there as well as any central server and backup disks. Sure, you can put the NVR there, but then it's not easy to use with a TV mounted elswhere as you need the mouse to control it. You will put that NVR where you think it should go, then the owner's wife will tell you she wants it elsewhere a month later and you'll have to re-run all the wires.

[arcam 0]

The reason for avoiding the NVR with the built in PoE switch is now you have 2 seperate switches, meaning 4 + NVR are on one internal switch, 4 on another so any traffic from one switch will feed into the other, all through a 100Mbps straw. Besides, the price of the 16 port switch vs 8 port may be $50 (when on sale). The other issue is wiring. I like to have my router and switches in one place, the NVR may be totally somewhere else and I want the option to move it and moving it may mean moving 9 ethernet cables, ouch. Just looks cleaner than having an NVR under a TV with 9 ethernet wires coming out behind the TV which already has it's own set of wires to deal with.

Not sure I follow this. The specs for the NVR3204/3208/3216 and NVR3204/3208/3216-P (POE version) both indicate they have 1x 10/100/1000mbps RJ45 network port. The -P version also has 4 POE ports. With either, if you connect an additional POE switch to the network port to support more than 4 cameras, you will be limited to 1000mbps (not 100)--unless you are saying the internal POE switch has only an internal 100mbps link to the network port, which seems unlikely.

 

I also found a thread debating whether the -P version is a router or switch (may be part of your reasoning?):

http://www.cctvforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=32432

I don't see a definitive answer to that and do not see why it would be a router. I would guess both versions include a DHCP server though, to make it easy to assign IPs to the connected cameras. Am I mistaken? Looking to buy and trying to decide which way to go. Thanks.

[buellwinkle 0]

The switch can be any speed, but the cameras are 100mbps, so the network runs at 100mbps, even if the switch and NVR supports Gige, it's irrelavent. When you connect via TCP/IP, there's autonegotiation that's done between the devices to come up with the lowest common denominator. For example, if one device is 100Mbps, MTU 900, the NVR is 1,000Mbps, MTU of 1500, it will autonegotiate to take the lowest common denominator, so the it will take the 100Mbps because that's the fastest that device will go, it will take MTU 1500 because that's the fastest the other device will go.

 

The issue to me is cable placement as #1, the second issue is having a seperate switch for half the cameras, seems untidy, but it will work, but all the cameras will send via a single connection from switch to switch, not perfect but it will work. Even if the internal switch is a router makes no difference, you can still plug the NVR and the cameras into an external switch.

[arcam 0]

The switch can be any speed, but the cameras are 100mbps, so the network runs at 100mbps, even if the switch and NVR supports Gige, it's irrelavent. When you connect via TCP/IP, there's autonegotiation that's done between the devices to come up with the lowest common denominator. For example, if one device is 100Mbps, MTU 900, the NVR is 1,000Mbps, MTU of 1500, it will autonegotiate to take the lowest common denominator, so the it will take the 100Mbps because that's the fastest that device will go, it will take MTU 1500 because that's the fastest the other device will go.

 

The issue to me is cable placement as #1, the second issue is having a seperate switch for half the cameras, seems untidy, but it will work, but all the cameras will send via a single connection from switch to switch, not perfect but it will work. Even if the internal switch is a router makes no difference, you can still plug the NVR and the cameras into an external switch.

Didn't realize the cameras are only 100mbps, so that is a limiting factor with both the POE and non-POE model. That said, the connection between the GigE port on the NVR and the GigE port on the external switch connected to it should still be 1000mbps. Ultimately, I'm not sure I see a downside to the -P version, other than added cost. If I decide I don't want to use the POE ports for the other reason you mention, I could still just use an external POE switch off the network port... What am I missing?

[buellwinkle 0]

Not a cost issue, but if I was buying a system for 8 cameras, I would buy a switch capable of 8 PoE ports and not use the 4 PoE ports regardless of which NVR I got and for me, the #1 reason would be not wanting 9 Ethernet cables behind my TV or NVR.

[RickyGee 0]

Ahhhh. I spent so much time with the HD-SDI noncompressed digital option with individual BNC ports for each camera, that it didn't don on me that the camera ports on the NVR are simply an internal switch. But it boggles my mind that Dahua would build 8 or 16 channel units and still use just a four port switch. That threw me off.

 

I agree with the use of the external 16 port PoE switch and thanks for the tip on the Xyzel unit. Looks good.

 

I talked with my buddy last night and we decided on 7 cameras; 4 - 2mp at the outside corners and 3 - 1.3mp for the inside. I still think the processor handling all of those at 15fps continuous will be taxed near its limit and probably run hot as heck, maybe reduce its service life. I guess we'll see.

 

Trying to make a purchase decision for this stuff without actually having the hardware to play with is tough, especially when the installation/operation manuals are not available on-line and you have to deal the the garbage from the marketing departments (features/specifications). That makes your advice and comments very valuable and much appreciated.

[tomcctv 187]

I talked with my buddy last night and we decided on 7 cameras; 4 - 2mp at the outside corners and 3 - 1.3mp for the inside. I still think the processor handling all of those at 15fps continuous will be taxed near its limit and probably run hot as heck, maybe reduce its service life. I guess we'll see.

 

 

Hi. 4 of 2 mp and 3 of 1.3 mp will limit the dahua NVR ......you will have to run the system at D1 .......or use 1.3 mp

 

No point buying 2mp to only use it's lowest resolution.

 

Dahua NVR controls the cameras .....a good NVR does not so you don't get the limitations.

[dexterash 0]

there is always the solution of getting two NVRs (they are kind of cheap), since PSS (DAHUA's CMS) can support up to 1000 channels to monitor/config/etc

[tomcctv 187]

there is always the solution of getting two NVRs (they are kind of cheap), since PSS (DAHUA's CMS) can support up to 1000 channels to monitor/config/etc

 

 

 

Yes that's an option .....buy 2 and us PSS in CIF to view ......op wanted quality images.

 

And the cost of two units ......WILL cost more than a goos NVR ...be cheaper getting a good vms.

[dexterash 0]

Who said anything about CIF?

 

Name a NVR that is cheaper that what 2 DAHUA NVRs cand do, please

[tomcctv 187]

Who said anything about CIF?

 

Name a NVR that is cheaper that what 2 DAHUA NVRs cand do, please

 

 

Aver nano .....it will save him $200.

 

 

To view lots of cameras on PSS it's in CIF

 

If for NVR. Better PSS direct from camera. But then limited.

[dexterash 0]

would you please give a model number?

[RickyGee 0]

I haven't figured out yet how to include the message I'm responding to in my reply, so please forgive me. Tomcctv, I'm looking at the latest version of the Dahua DH-NVR3208 and the specs show that the unit is capable of 120fps@1080P. I assumed that means 30fps each for 4 cameras or 15fps for 8. They made a version not long ago that was only good for 60fps@1080P total. Is that the one you are referring to?

 

Not having the installation/operation manual for this NVR is a severe limitation. Anybody know where I can find one on-line? I searched hours to no avail, finding only manuals for the private party units like Backstreet or Q-See.

 

Dexterash, thanks for your input. I thought about that and it is still an option on my table. By going with the internal switch on the 4 channel unit, the cost difference is only a few hundred bucks. If Tomcctv is right about the D1 recording, I might have to, because he is right that it makes no sense at all to have a 2MP camera that you can't record at that resolution at 15fps min.

[dexterash 0]

RickyGee, use the "quote" button for answering a specific post.

 

I can only tell about DH-NVR3216 that does, for sure, 100fps@1080p on PAL and 120fps@1080p on NTSC.

So it does realtime FullHD recording for 4 IP Channels (also it outputs FullHD image via the HDMI connector)

[RickyGee 0]

RickyGee, use the "quote" button for answering a specific post.

 

I can only tell about DH-NVR3216 that does, for sure, 100fps@1080p on PAL and 120fps@1080p on NTSC.

So it does realtime FullHD recording for 4 IP Channels (also it outputs FullHD image via the HDMI connector)

 

Thanks, I feel like a dummy having not tried that before.

 

Thanks also for that feedback. Sounds like you have one and have set it up. Can you set each camera individually for a resolution and frame rate. Might make sense to set a critical camera at 30fps and sacrifice to 7fps on a less critical one.

[dexterash 0]

I will tell you that tomorrow - didn't test that because we usually use it in Realtime FullHD (and I also know it was a firmware issue, so I can't say if it's been fixed).

 

Also, you got a PM (message)

[dexterash 0]

Who said anything about CIF?

 

Name a NVR that is cheaper that what 2 DAHUA NVRs cand do, please

 

 

Aver nano .....it will save him $200.

 

 

To view lots of cameras on PSS it's in CIF

 

If for NVR. Better PSS direct from camera. But then limited.

Which AVER NANO can record and display at FullHD resolution and at 25-30fps@1080p/channel?

 

After your post I've been searching... all they can do is support megapixel cameras, but recording is done at PAL/NTSC/D1 resolution and output is done in XGA resolution - 1025x768

[RickyGee 0]

Who said anything about CIF?

 

Name a NVR that is cheaper that what 2 DAHUA NVRs cand do, please

 

 

Aver nano .....it will save him $200.

 

 

To view lots of cameras on PSS it's in CIF

 

If for NVR. Better PSS direct from camera. But then limited.

I took a look at the Aver units. Interesting. The nano is a hybrid DVR but the mini is an NVR and compares well to the Dahua DH-NVR3204. But the Dahua has a built in switch and the mini requires an external switch. The Aver unit would end up costing $200 more, after buying a switch. But thanks for the tip. It was worth a look.