Help newb plan HD system for home

[cah027 0]

Hello.. I found this site as I begin my research for a security cam system for my home. I found a few other forums but this one seems to be the most active and full of knowledgeable people. I have only dabbled a little with cheap ip cams over the years and I have been disappointed. I know its because I bought cheap junk, but now I am ready to put together a "big boy" system. I really don't know what I am doing so I must admit I am a total newbie.

 

I have a 2 story house on a small lot. I think I would like to have a HD dvr system with 8 ch. I would like a few outdoor cams and a few indoor. One in particular indoor cam that will need to be hidden and small (spycam) this is for a secure room that I rarely get into. I would want motion alerts for this room and motion activation for recording. I am not worried about false alarms for this cam as it will only be accessed by me or a thief. I would like to access the cams from the internet. I would also like to have stills to auto upload to an ftp or offsite storage in case the dvr is discovered. I would like to spend $2000 or less and do the install myself.

 

Not sure if its possible to make the outdoor cams less noticeable either?

 

Thanks in advance for any feedback.

[bigglebowski 0]

Not sure how "cheap" the cameras that you were working with before that were "junk" but $2000 for 8 cams some of which are outdoor doesnt seem too far off from cheap. Not to mention the cost of the the wiring, switch and NVR.

[cah027 0]

Not sure how "cheap" the cameras that you were working with before that were "junk" but $2000 for 8 cams some of which are outdoor doesnt seem too far off from cheap. Not to mention the cost of the the wiring, switch and NVR.

 

Thanks for the reply.. I just had a $140 dlink and a cheap made in china foscam clone. So thats how cheap I've been so far. I am a super novice when it comes to this stuff

 

So are you saying my $2000 budget is too low to get something decent ? I don't necessarily need 8 cams but would like 8 ch dvr for future expansion if need be. I could probably make due with 5 or 6 cams to start. If I have to go over budget some I could.

 

Thanks again.

[bigglebowski 0]

Not sure how "cheap" the cameras that you were working with before that were "junk" but $2000 for 8 cams some of which are outdoor doesnt seem too far off from cheap. Not to mention the cost of the the wiring, switch and NVR.

 

 

So are you saying my $2000 budget is too low to get something decent ?

 

Decent is a relative term. Figuring 8 cams, NVR, wiring, networking etc... seemed low for analog let alone IP. At that budget look into the brand Dahua. It seems like +80% of the recent posts on this site are about Dahua so info should be easy to come by.

[cah027 0]

Decent is a relative term. Figuring 8 cams, NVR, wiring, networking etc... seemed low for analog let alone IP.

 

What budget would you recommend for a mid-grade ip system? I have all of the network cabling I need. I also have a PC I could use instead of a DVR if it would fit better cams into the budget. I would do all of the install myself. I may need to find a good place to order the Dahua stuff if we have to double the budget to get a better brand.

[bigglebowski 0]

Since you have a "free" PC the. Search for NVR / VMS / CMS software and look for a page on each of their sites that shows what cameras they support. You should see a handful of brands that work on all software, these are the cams I would look into purchasing. Then when you find a brand you like look and see if they offer free NVR/VMS software. This only works if you stick to one brand, which may help you spend a little more on each camera. Acti has some models that have just come out and a few more that should be out soon that are low cost even for the outdoor ones. Their NVR 3.0 software will support up to 16 cams at no additional cost.

[cah027 0]

Ah.. very good point on keeping it all one brand and getting free software. Thanks again for the replies. I really appreciate it. Now I have some home work..

[securitynow.us 0]

Vivotek is another brand to look at as well, they have free cms software for up to 16 cameras as well I believe. I have used ACTi on jobs as well, so that is another good one. Good luck with your install, hope you find a solution that suits your budget.

 

 

Rick Watson

[cah027 0]

Vivotek is another brand to look at as well, they have free cms software for up to 16 cameras as well I believe. I have used ACTi on jobs as well, so that is another good one. Good luck with your install, hope you find a solution that suits your budget.

 

 

Rick Watson

 

 

Thanks for the reply Rick. I will look into the Vivotek cams. I am certainly leaning towards the MP IP cams now. There just so many to choose from. I am working on a drawing of my house to plan out my cam needs. I need to figure minimum coverage needed.

 

Thanks again

[Kawboy12R 0]

My preferences run to a minimum of one cam per door, one for each side of the house, possibly two in the backyard, plus a varifocal zoomed into the driveway to get plates and hopefully faces of "visitors" that mess with the vehicles. My driveway has three covering it- the wide angle front door cam, one for my car in the side driveway, and one on the garage facing out zoomed in for a better ID. There's only a 6mm varifocal @ 1280x960 there at the moment. It's good for plates but dodgy for faces at a distance. 10-12mm at that resolution would be better for a 65' driveway that visitors regularly approach to within about 30' or so of the camera.

[cah027 0]

My preferences run to a minimum of one cam per door, one for each side of the house, possibly two in the backyard, plus a varifocal zoomed into the driveway to get plates and hopefully faces of "visitors" that mess with the vehicles. My driveway has three covering it- the wide angle front door cam, one for my car in the side driveway, and one on the garage facing out zoomed in for a better ID. There's only a 6mm varifocal @ 1280x960 there at the moment. It's good for plates but dodgy for faces at a distance. 10-12mm at that resolution would be better for a 65' driveway that visitors regularly approach to within about 30' or so of the camera.

 

Sounds like you have a well thought out system. I think I will produce a detailed drawing with dimensions and post it here for recommendation. I will need to measure everything so it will probably be within the next few days. I will probably focus on the outside first , then the inside.

 

Thanks

[cah027 0]

Before I get a drawing created I thought I would post the sat pic of my small property/house. As you can see the back side of my lot is where my mini barn backs up to..

 

Any suggestions on camera type and placement would be appreciated. I am thinking about going with the Dahua camera hooked up to my PC.

 

The lots to the right will remain empty and undeveloped. There are houses on the other side of my street.

 

[Kawboy12R 0]

I'd stick a dome just over each man-door with maybe a 3.6mm lens. Something over the garage door with a varifocal going to at least 9mm so you can find the balance of zoom and field of view you want for closeups of vehicles, plates, and faces. Pick a dome or their big bullet, but a 6mm or 8mm fixed lens would be a decent all-around choice at a lower price point. I'd lower the zoom and widen the FOV of the garage cam if the front door cam wasn't angled towards the driveway a bit, but that'll leave a bit of a blind spot facing your neighbour to the west. I'd have a cam on both sides of the house and probably facing backwards from the corner nearer the front to catch people trying to get in the side windows. Depending on where your rear door is, the cam for that door might be close enough to be useful to ID someone going into your shed, but if you keep an ATV or whatever in there it might not hurt to have something zoomed in on the shed for facial ID. I like having a good view of my kids and wildlife in my back yard as well, so figure that into your plans if you think the kids might be playing in the vacant lot and your side camera is angled back to include the windows and siding of folks breaking in through your windows. A 90 degree lens gives good coverage but won't identify much at a distance, especially at night. Printing out a picture of your lot and putting a protractor on the possible cam mounting points after looking up the FOV angles from the specs of your various cameras will give a good idea of where and what you'll need. There are software tools out there too if you want to get fancy. Here's a free one-

 

http://www.pelco.com/sites/global/en/sales-and-support/downloads-and-tools/tools/pelco-camera-tool.page

 

Facial recognition distances for camera placement are quite short though you'll be able to tell things like "thin white male in dark t-shirt and light pants with a hat" at a lot longer distances. I wish the tool had a license plate recognition distance option, but that's an inexact science anyway.

[cah027 0]

Thanks for the suggestions kawboy

 

I don't have windows on either side of my house. Just on the front and back. That is my red truck so I will want something to cover it but its not that important if its too much trouble. Its just an old truck with no radio

 

I was thinking about using the Dahua IPC-HDB3200C 1080P Mini Dome for the driveway (if you think it would be good enough) not sure it has the FOV or zoom settings you mentioned. The street lamp just in front of my truck gives some light at night so if the dome has good low light performance I could make due.

 

I don't have much use for watching the side lots although I might add another cam for that later. I really would like good facial recognition for my shed. I will measure the distance from the back corner of my house to the shed but I think its about 15' .

 

I marked up the pic of my lot. The blue on the west side is were my AC coil is. I would like some coverage in that general area in case someone steals it I could at least get footage of them carrying it off. The red line on the back is where my sliding door is. I might be able to put a cam to the west of it to cover the door and shed ?

 

Maybe I could get a couple of the 720P cams you can get for $299 and use 1 for the front door and use the other elsewhere?

 

[Kawboy12R 0]

That HDB-3200C is a pretty lousy night-time camera but you can order it with a 6 or 8mm lens (no adjustment though- order it and hope you got it right). The HDBW-3200 or HDB-3200 (make sure there's no C) are much better at night and are varifocal (adjustable zoom). The 3200C might be all right for folks who come up to a door with a light on all the time but not good for outside of the bright light pool. Definitely wouldn't stick a 3200C in my driveway hoping to ID night prowlers. The $299/pair cams (you must be talking about the Costco ones, right?) come with 6mm lenses. Good for some things but have a pretty narrow field of view. Stick their specs in the Pelco tool and check out the field of view. Not great. 3.6 is pretty narrow for getting a big picture. Something even smaller (2.8 maybe) isn't bad for a doorway camera. Good enough for faces of those who reach the door but still gives a good idea of what's going on in the yard. You'll need something with lots of zoom for IDing folks touching a truck on the street. Varifocal up to 12mm with 2 or 3mp would be a good option.

[cah027 0]

ok..My house is 38" wide and my driveway is 43' to the street. according the the pelco tool, I would need about a 6mm lens on a 1/3" sensor. I used the IPC-HFW2100 as an example for my driveway cam. I am not sure this little camera would even be a possibility but it looks pretty good on paper.

 

 

 

Here is a view from the street up my drive

 

Here is the view holding the camera just above the garage door as high as I could reach.

 

From the back of my house to the barn its 21' Here is a view from the barn:

 

I have a couple of different mounting locations in the back I would consider.

 

One right about the door. (held camera about the door and took a picture)

 

The other option is to mount it on the far corner of the house opposite of the barn. ( I held the camera out the the window closest to the corner of the house to simulate the view.)

 

Here is what I entered into the tool for the IPC-HDBW3300P. Maybe I could put it on the front western most corner of my house looking across my front yard over to my driveway

[cah027 0]

I was reading someone else s post today and they were saying that Dahua has some new and improved cams coming out next month. I might wait for those.

 

Can someone point me to a reliable source to purchase them? I see some people talking about getting them straight from China for a lot less money. Is there a reliable Chinese dealer online?

 

Thanks

[Kawboy12R 0]

PMed you on possible sources.

 

Just for scale, here's a pic of my Escape that I backed out to roughly 43 feet (paced it to the plates) in the driveway. 1.3mp Axis P3364VE (1280x960) with varifocal zoomed out to the maximum of 6mm. Lighting is from a streetlight on the pole you can see plus two not very bright fixtures 40 feet away and 15 ft up on the soffit above my veranda. Plates are easily readable with lights on and off at night. Faces aren't very good at that distance at night either in colour or with IR. The pic IS modified a bit. I dropped the jpg quality a bit to keep it under the 250KB filesize limit and I erased the first three digits of the plate.

[Kawboy12R 0]

Oh, just thought I'd explain the tool a bit better. On the 1.3mp 2100 bullet specs that you plugged in, facial recognition (a really good facial ID) is good only to the grey area on the cone, not the red area. That's about 15 feet. The details in the 3300 bullet show a really good facial ID out to about 25 feet. You can stretch those distances and get a decent ID but the exact details get fuzzier as you get farther away, especially at night.

[cah027 0]

Ah.. I did not know that. Ok.. that explains a lot. I might be able to squeeze a few more feet of facial recognition out of the 3mp if I change the angle a bit but it is probably the minimum I'd go. I'd probably have to go with a good zoom for that front west corner for the red truck as suggested. Probably bot a dome for that one.

[cah027 0]

Just wanted to update my post. I bought the 8CH Q-See system from Sams Club that comes with 4 1.3mp cams. I am in the middle of running the cables down a wall from the attic. I will probably buy at least 2 more 2mp Dahua cams to with it.

 

Now I just need suggestions on where I should place the cams.

 

Also.. I have no idea how to configure after its all hooked up. I would like remote view on a phone or computer. So I will probably have to setup port forwarding.

 

I know nothing about DNS settings. Will I have to get a host or something? I don't know a lot about networks.

 

Thanks again.

 

 

 

***EDIT*** On second thought. I might just get 2 more of the 1.3mp cams. The 2 for $299 ones. Maybe for next years tax refund I might get a night PTZ to mount on my chimney so I will have a 360 of my property, although that might be overkill..

[Kawboy12R 0]

If it were my place, I'd stick the front door cam just above the top of the door on the side away from the garage door. A white bullet cam would stick out on the brick though, so maybe up higher at the bottom of the siding. A dome would fit in better down lower though, plus leaves folks guessing a bit as to which way the camera is pointing. You don't want your blind spots too obvious. Play with placement a bit before drilling and running wires. You don't want to rush things and mount it too high and just see bald spots, hoodies, and hat brims. Have someone wearing a hoodie and a hat walk up to your front door (not stop, pose, and look up) to see what I mean. Most people will walk with their head down watching where to place their feet when outside. One cam probably to the corner (right side looking at it) side of the garage door for a straight on pic of plates, but it won't be toooo much better than the front door cam (they'll overlap coverage of the driveway) until you get one with a longer lens. Rear door one to the side away from the shed crossing over to look at the shed for double duty. Then another one probably to the shed side of that door looking crossed away from the shed to cover the rest of the approach to your back windows and door. Then, with the extra pair, maybe the first one on the side of the house at the front corner away from the garage (left corner looking IN the front door) pointing towards the road. After that pick where you want the last one based on personal preference and where you want covered. Clear as mud yet?

[cah027 0]

Thanks again..

 

I think I know what you are saying on the placements. I will mark up some pics and post them with my version of the placements taking in consideration your placements as well. I am thinking about doing something about what you are saying but a little different until I get the addition cams. Also.. I can't seem to find Dauha or Q-See dome cams with LEDs . I only find the ones without. Do you think the bullet cams with LEDs will shine enough IR for the non IR cams to pick up on?

 

I would like to use a dome like you said for the front door cam.. I might go ahead and fill all 8 channels. Should have my tax return so.. you know.. a hole is burning..

 

Also. the one dome with ir's i was going to get is a 3mp and my nvr won't take advantage of the res so if I could get 2mp that would be great or i might stick with the 1.3mp.. Maybe I should get one 2.mp bullet for the straight on Driveway cam for plates? If so, what lens should I order for it? 6mm?

 

Also.. I know that mounting them as low as I can is better for the angle but wouldn't people be able to reach them or knock them down or move them ?

[Kawboy12R 0]

Linovision has the IR domes. http://linovision.com/en/products/ip-camera/2-megapixel.html

 

If you want something closer to home, Google "ESIP camera" and see what pops up for IR domes.

 

Not sure if they're worth the money unless you can get them for Chinese prices though. Empire Security on EBay might be able to hook you up if you ask, but their shelves were bare the last time I checked.

 

The Dahua non-IR 2mp minidome (3200C) won't see any IR at all so don't bother with the minidome unless you want to leave lights on all the time. It won't matter if the other bullets are pointed in the same direction or not.

 

6mm for the drive should be ok for anything pulling into your driveway but would be too short for IDing folks touching your truck on the street for my tastes. I've never seen a good pic of plates at night from a Dahua (especially against headlights) so that might be bit of a long shot, but daytime should be easy. I'm not saying a Dahua can't grab plates at night with some tweaking but I haven't seen any shots showing it though. That's one of the reasons I went with an Axis for my driveway cam. Easy plates day or night.

 

I like lower cams but ask yourself who would be playing with them that couldn't turn them into a pinata with a short stick or a bit of a jump if mounted up a bit higher? To my thinking I might as well get a good face shot of them buggering up my cams than a nice shot of their cap or bald spot. Cams up high are good for overview or recognition but not nearly as good for ID, if you get my drift. Home cam placement isn't quite as critical as trying to keep kids (of all ages) from whacking them in a school, mall, low-rent apartments, or wherever.

[cah027 0]

Here is a night time screen cap of the 4 cams I have installed so far. I will probably move them around when I get additional cams.

 

If anyone has a good source for dahua 2.0mp cams let me know. I might get some on eBay..

 

 

 

 

Also as you can see my driveway has decent light from the light post. I was thinking about getting one of those 1080P non ir domes if this would be enough light?