Day/Night cameras...

[libertysurveillance 0]

we have been selling midrange D/N cams with mixed results. We recently installed our first Bosch D/N cam. What an incredible difference! The picture was remarkable... please advise us as to what other $500-$800 D/N cams you all are having good experience with. And for the ever-present cheapo customers, can anyone recommend a decent D/N cam at a lower price, tho I doubt they exist. You really do get what you pay for with this technology!

[rory 0]

GE, Sanyo, ofcourse Extreme CCTV (EX-82) ...

[jisaac 0]

ya you think that bosch day night looks good you wait till you put in an extreme ex-80 or 82.

That is a huge a difference. That duel camera idea was a good one.

[dtonsberg 0]

If you just need a DN camera to address insufficent lighting at night then there are alot of choices in the simple solution of DN camera only electronics such as the brand names Sanyo, Sony, Bosch, Toshiba as well as many no name imports from China. Most DN cameras range in price from $145 to $400 depending on where you buy. The critical specification is "Virtual DN" as compared to "True DN".

 

Virtual DN is just a bad hoax and most manufacturers should be shot over this. This technology does little to improve the night time acquisition of low light images and video. It merely strips the chroma from the frame leaving a monochrome image.

 

With True DN, the IR cut filter is electro-mechanically removed thus allowing the imager to become more IR sensitive and produce lower light video.

 

You will find that companies like Cantronix, Extreme CCTV, RVision and others have DN solutions that integrate thermal and active IR illumination into the DN camera or Day camera to get the ultimate video for night time applications. In my book, customer service and warranty comes into play so be careful who you pick in this arena. Some of them are terrible at protecting your interests as an installing company and or user!

[CollinR 0]

Since nobody has mentioned Panasonic, I will!

[rory 0]

Since nobody has mentioned Panasonic, I will!

 

my bad ..

[CCTV_Suppliers 0]

we have been selling midrange D/N cams with mixed results. We recently installed our first Bosch D/N cam. What an incredible difference! The picture was remarkable... please advise us as to what other $500-$800 D/N cams you all are having good experience with. And for the ever-present cheapo customers, can anyone recommend a decent D/N cam at a lower price, tho I doubt they exist. You really do get what you pay for with this technology!

 

I think this topic was covered in this forum before... Rory do you remember??

 

We had best of the best cameras from all the major manufacturers (Bosch, GE Security, Sanyo, Panasonic, ExtremeCCTV, American Dynamics and CBC).... The second condition was that the pricing had to be less than $500. We understand that someone can spend over $10K or more per camera (yes over $10,000 and even more), but out intention was to determine who can provide the best technology camera in the below of midrange pricing... that could be avail to most, rather than selected few..

 

Test involved having the cameras viewing an area that had very bright and very dark areas plus a truck pulling into the bay and having an open container rear door with boxed merchandise half away into the 20' container. Also, tests were conducted during the day and also at night (night condition also was to have a single flood light roughly 50' away from the test area)...

 

Results were very interesting, as the manufacturers were available to make sure that their respective components were adjusted to their "maximum" level...

 

Considering the "extreme" condition tests, 3 of the models were automatically were disqualified... (I will not state which ones to respect the manufacturers integrity).. Then we had the shoot out with the remaining 4 candidates... At the end, the actual competition remained between Bosch (their 1/3" day/night did not qualify, so they brought in their day/night 1/2" candidate) and Panasonic (their 1/3" day/night camera) - I am sure you may already guess which ones I am referring to...

 

End results were that Panasonic did edge Bosch few percentage point, regardless the fact that Bosch's best was also $100+ more than Panasonic's camera...

 

I will say based on this extreme test, Panasonic is still provides the best picture quality for the price... not a cheap option, but the best performer..

 

Now, I am sure others will jump into this and I am sure everyone will have their say - trust me, I like a good challenge.. but my answer is not based on an opinion, rather facts...

 

Any situation that requires a solution due to its extreme light change conditions, our solution is always to use Panasonic CP-484 SDIII technology

[rory 0]

how about Extreme's EX82?

 

PS. did you test the GE's KTC-2000? Awsome Day Night camera, though its not a WDR, great to be used with IR also, and being Exview, extra sensitive under low light; great for extreme lighting conditions, but not necessarily for extreme light changing conditions. Also, they have a couple new models, I have them here actually (received demos) but no housings or lenses to test them yet .

 

In any event, peeps down here can barely afford the OEM bullets .. they want a megapixel image for $20.

[CCTV_Suppliers 0]

how about Extreme's EX82?

 

PS. did you test the GE's KTC-2000? Awsome Day Night camera, though its not a WDR, great to be used with IR also, and being Exview, extra sensitive under low light; great for extreme lighting conditions, but not necessarily for extreme light changing conditions. Also, they have a couple new models, I have them here actually (received demos) but no housings or lenses to test them yet .

 

In any event, peeps down here can barely afford the OEM bullets .. they want a megapixel image for $20.

 

The tests were based on the best the manufacturers had at that time under $500 and no, the ExtremeCCTV did not cut the mustard...

 

We purposly made the test very difficult for everyone (why the hell not and we were ready to call everyones bluff) and even GE KTC model did not even make it to the second round... for obvious reason that you also found out... We should be running another test in the very near future and lets see who actually will be willing to participate... some already told us that they do not want to involve with such independent tests and want to stay with their own specs and test results... chickens... which is just fine with us.. this way, it will be much easier to find a new winner or may be this time around we may have new comer.. that can blow everyone out of the water...

 

I will let you know these results, if there is an interest...

[CollinR 0]

You are wasting your time, you already found the best bang:buck NTSC cam.

[CCTV_Suppliers 0]

You are wasting your time, you already found the best bang:buck NTSC cam.

 

Cool...

 

Sometimes we like to call any manufacturers bluff.. it is easier than someone may think...

 

They all are very decent and quality cameras, however, no one camera could be used for any "fix all" application... The Pano's CP-484 does come close, but then again, for every day use and budgets that are shrinking, Sanyo and others started look even better... Besides, all these majors have started dropping pricing... I guess they figured that either they missed the boat or just about to.. You can expect an average of 5 to 10% drop in camera pricing right after ASIS show...

[CollinR 0]

You might be better served (and suprised, GE has a badboy WDR VD) if you also limit by form factor. Say vandal domes, the results although probably similar I don't think the SDIII Panasonic will fare as well. This OBVIOUSLY includes some kind of bang:buck correlation. You may like me find the GE has the bang:buck edge over the Panny in vandal domes.

 

For my residential customers it's hard to sell a full on box and housing. Even though everyone knows thats really the way to go.

 

The bang:buck kills ExtremeCCTV dead, they aren't THAT much better (if at all, in select areas).

 

Also lenses should be standardized if possible, others make the SDIII work even better. I have never sold the Panasonic/Panasonic 484, I always use someone else's lens. On box cams I would use the same lens for all tests.

 

As such I don't think the GE mentioned above should be penalized because it was delivered without a lens. I would expect vandal domes to be delivered with a lens, soo thats kinda impossible. In a perfect world... ( I used to be a R&D and QA lab guy so I am picky about tests and what you measure.)

 

Next round you might PM GECAMGUY here, he ain't skeerd.

 

Also a breakdown of components... I have seen good cams with crap lens, good lens on crap cam, crap cam and awesome encoder, awesome cam and crap encoder. It goes on and on, I am glad I am in a position to pick and choose rather then develop and deploy. Some get cut off at the knees over a 10% part. Of course thats why I get paid, I know I can save you $ by swapping and intermixing the better/best of field depending on the budget.

 

Also all the OEMing makes this terribly difficult, who really gets the credit? The guy who sent it to you, the guy who dreamed it up, the guy who made it real? Thats a bigtime PITA!

[CCTV_Suppliers 0]

You might be better served (and suprised, GE has a badboy WDR VD) if you also limit by form factor. Say vandal domes, the results although probably similar I don't think the SDIII Panasonic will fare as well. This OBVIOUSLY includes some kind of bang:buck correlation. You may like me find the GE has the bang:buck edge over the Panny in vandal domes.

 

For my residential customers it's hard to sell a full on box and housing. Even though everyone knows thats really the way to go.

 

The bang:buck kills ExtremeCCTV dead, they aren't THAT much better (if at all, in select areas).

 

Also lenses should be standardized if possible, others make the SDIII work even better. I have never sold the Panasonic/Panasonic 484, I always use someone else's lens. On box cams I would use the same lens for all tests.

 

As such I don't think the GE mentioned above should be penalized because it was delivered without a lens. I would expect vandal domes to be delivered with a lens, soo thats kinda impossible. In a perfect world... ( I used to be a R&D and QA lab guy so I am picky about tests and what you measure.)

 

Next round you might PM GECAMGUY here, he ain't skeerd.

 

Also a breakdown of components... I have seen good cams with crap lens, good lens on crap cam, crap cam and awesome encoder, awesome cam and crap encoder. It goes on and on, I am glad I am in a position to pick and choose rather then develop and deploy. Some get cut off at the knees over a 10% part. Of course thats why I get paid, I know I can save you $ by swapping and intermixing the better/best of field depending on the budget.

 

Also all the OEMing makes this terribly difficult, who really gets the credit? The guy who sent it to you, the guy who dreamed it up, the guy who made it real? Thats a bigtime PITA!

 

Hey bud, your observations are very correct and I should have explain the basic test criteria even more detailed...

 

Rules were simple... Every manufacturer was to bring their complete hardware. Restrictions were that it had to be fixed (or sometime I read in this forum "boxed" camera) with its own lens and in the brand new box.. and not something that may have been used as "demo" or twicked in the factory to perform "beyond its capabilities) and to give anyone an excuse why such product did not work to its specs.

 

Each brand was complete with its camera and the lens.. We were not testing playback video quality (that is our next test for DVRs), rather picture quality variance in the defined scenario of extreme condition (that actually was a customer request) and have them go against each other..

 

Now, GE's latest chipsets are suppose to be better... I will not say the same on their previous chipsets on their cameras (not including their domes, which use different technology cameras)... They knew it and did not say anything about it and the quality was, well, average.. I will not go into details on why it did not pass all the tests, rather it did not matched up with some of their competitors at that time.. I do know that they were talking about a different camera chipset and that was suppose to blow everyone out of the water, but seeing is believing... so I will reserve my opinion until I see otherwise...

 

What was very embarrassing was that everyone had a claim and everyone were geared up to go into a battle But, you should have seen a lot of unsatisfied faces when they saw with their own eyes that some of their claims were, well not that accurate?

 

Heck, we were not there or even now to down play anyone... just wanted to get the best of the best at that time under $500... and I do know that things are changing and chances are very good that what is coming up in these manufacturers lineups actually could surprise all of us... The bottom line... It has to deliver everything as they promise and the price they dictate and if not, we will be all over them.. Our approach is a good thing for end user and dealers and may not be that desirable for manufacturers... Oh well, who cares... Sometimes it is necessary to "double check" what they claim anyway..

 

Our next roundup will be Minidomes and we are accumulating DVRs too... Some of them are providing such hardware for limited use basis and some that either we already have or will purchase... This way when we are preparing a quote and we have a very focused customer who wants to goods to be exactly what is on the claim, then we can easily make the recommendation based on facts and not on what is on white paper...

 

Lets wait and see what happens next... Actually I am holding by breath knowing what is coming up from Sanyo, GE, AD and even from Bosch... it will be fun to have a newer leader don't you think?