Raid 1, External Hard Drives, eSATA Sata

is anyone running external hard drives in Raid1? I just happened across an eSata cable this week & it encouraged some excitement - RAID1 with a break away hard drive. The "problem" I was up against was the short cable limitation of sata, but the eSata cables are up to 6'.

So my plan of attack is this: have 1 TB drive in PC, maybe 15 gb partition for the OS, 15 gb partition for "long term storage", and the remaining ~900 gb (930 gb is what shows up on my 1 tb wd drives) for the database (aka video files).

In the event of theft, hopefully a drive would be left behind, and in the event of failure (assuming the store manager realized one of the drives has failed), the manager slaps in an extra drive & the mb rebuilds the array.

I know the array can be taken out with one wrong keystroke, but I'm trying to make it bomb proof.

Issues I've had:

-External hard drive enclosures - I want it powered off of the computer's power supply. I tried an external enclosure that had a power button. I bypassed the power button, but it didn't spin up quick enough to be recognized by the system "please insert system disk" or something like that.

My workaround this was to take my longest sata cable (~3'), & screw in a 5-pin din jack on the back of the DVR, soldered the sata power leads to this jack, made a cord that had sata power & the 5-pin din plug, & stuck the hard drive in a 12VDC 9 port power supply.

I know I could run an external HD case pwr supply off of a UPS, but I don't want people to have to reach under their counter or even know that it's there in certain cases.

I have no idea of the ambient temperature in this power supply, but thought about running an 80mm fan off of one of the 9 channels (hole saw ~3" hole screw in a fan guard) if it was an issue.

I found a link here to a "speed fan" utility that is supposed to monitor HD temps etc, I wonder what kind of alerts can be programmed to alert via email or a simple pop up message........... this is something I plan to experiment with.

Another idea I'm toying with is having just a ~250gb hard drive in the dvr (os & storage), & an external drive (esata, USB, firewire) that contains the database/video files. I don't know how slow the search/playback will be, and if it's even fast enough for my systems.

How would I go about testing practical write speeds to know if these other technologies (firewire & usb) would be fast enough? I guess USB 2.0 is as fast as IDE? If so, IDE worked fine so USB may work fine in this instance too.

I haven't messed around with "add mirror" in Win7 yet, so maybe I could mirror an internal SATA main drive with a USB (external) drive.

Sounds pretty ghetto-fab

Personally, rather than messing with the mirroring thing, I'd do something like this to achieve (about) the same ends:

Build your DVR with only a small-ish drive: OS, software, video-search database...

Use or build an external drive array for the video storage, that you can tuck away somewhere safe.

Attach the storage array via network, using iSCSI, rather than USB or eSATA.

Once the DVR is configured and working, use a disk-imaging program (Paragon, Acronis, DriveImage, Ghost, etc.) to create a backup image of the DVR. Store this on an external drive, on a DVD, and/or on your array.

This way if the DVR drive goes blooey, or if the DVR walks off, you can easily just re-image it and be back up and running.

For an array, you can use something like QNAP, Synology, Drobo, or other similar commercial units... or if you're into the DIY, you could use FreeNAS on any old machine you have kicking around. For data redundancy, you could then run RAID1, or if you have enough drives, RAID5 or 6, on your NAS.

lol @ the ghetto fab

it must refer to the 2nd hd in the power supply, but it seems like a perfect place due to size, nobody's going to think the HD is in there, and since it's powered off the computer's power supply there's no extra parts to fail (control board in external HD case or it's power supply), & the power supply is required in almost all systems.

The beauty of this IMO is that the motherboard has no idea that the redundant drive is not in the case, the software has no idea the drive is being mirrored, & it'd be very unlikely that a perp would get away with both the DVR & the extra drive.

I'll have to look into iscsi, but unless it's recognized as a physical drive I'm not sure it'd work with the system I sell & support the most (divis).

Thanks for your thoughts, I'll have to look into those options.

I'll have to look into iscsi, but unless it's recognized as a physical drive I'm not sure it'd work with the system I sell & support the most (divis).

iSCSI does map as a physical drive letter, and the OS should have no idea that it's NOT a physically-attached drive (Windows doesn't, at least). Vigil has the same issue; it specifically won't allow you to use a SAMBA share as a data drive, as the developers found too many problems with network drive mappings dropping off and/or not being reconnected properly after a reboot. We've been using iSCSI with a number of different NAS arrays now and found it very reliable. I've actually had far more issues with external USB drives dropping out, requiring the drive to be unplugged and reconnected to be recognized again.

A potential problem I see with your plan, is that someone yanking the DVR out could see the wires going to your hidden storage, follow them, and take that as well - your power cable might be inconspicuous, but an eSATA cable will start to look suspicious. And what happens if their ripping the machine out yanks on the cable, tips the external drive over or in some other way presents a physical shock to it, and causes a head crash?

If you want to be REALLY certain, just put the whole DVR machine somewhere secure and access it remotely from a desktop/laptop, or use a KVM-over-UTP extender - there are several examples here: http://www.aten.com/KVM-Extender.htm (we've used these before, as well as Belkin models). You could even combine the extender with a KVM switch, so the DVR can be controlled using the same keyboard/mouse/monitor as your desktop machine.

yanks on the cable, tips the external drive over or in some other way presents a physical shock to it, and causes a head crash?

 

If you want to be REALLY certain, just put the whole DVR machine somewhere secure and access it remotely from a desktop/laptop, or use a KVM-over-UTP extender - there are several examples here: http://www.aten.com/KVM-Extender.htm (we've used these before, as well as Belkin models). You could even combine the extender with a KVM switch, so the DVR can be controlled using the same keyboard/mouse/monitor as your desktop machine.

I forgot to mention the velcro (lol). Hey it's in it's infancy.

Last week one location had a camera ripped out, within arms reach of the DVR, & they stole the camera and nothing else.

Most of my systems go into small (<16 camera) retail & restaurant environments, so their budget is smaller than casinos, but perhaps similar to c stores.

I do like your train of thought.

If I were to utilize iSCSI would you recommend a product like this: http://www.amazon.com/Iomega-StorCenter-ix2-200-Network-Attached/dp/B002SG7MEG/ref=sr_1_7?tag=gpse-20&ie=UTF8&qid=1290836645&sr=8-7

I'm also interested in venturing into IP cams, so the above device, along w/ the ip cams, could be plugged into a POE switch I'm assuming.

I do have a few locations that have the DVR in a secured closet (locked metal door w/ deadbolt), but most of the locations the DVR just goes on a shelf in the office. I have several locations that use KVM switches but that's just because they lack space for duplicate monitor/mouse/kb

If I were to utilize iSCSI would you recommend a product like this: http://www.amazon.com/Iomega-StorCenter-ix2-200-Network-Attached/dp/B002SG7MEG/ref=sr_1_7?tag=gpse-20&ie=UTF8&qid=1290836645&sr=8-7

Sure. We currently use mainly QNAP (http://www.qnap.com); we've also used Synology and Enhance Technologies arrays.

I'm also interested in venturing into IP cams, so the above device, along w/ the ip cams, could be plugged into a POE switch I'm assuming.

Correct. Actually, a common setup for one of our customers (a chain of up-scale restaurants) uses a Cisco SFE1000P switch (eight 10/100 PoE ports, two GbE/miniGBIC ports), putting the cameras (4-6, depending on the site) on the PoE ports, the DVR on one GbE port, and the NAS on the other GbE port. Works great!

If you're going to go all-IP, take a look at a dedicated NVR/NAS system like these: http://www.qnapsecurity.com

thanks for the help here. I have to mull a few things over. I almost pulled the trigger on the QNAP TS-219P but then I realized I'd have to use win7's 'mirror' option which I'm not familiar with yet. Luckily I just bot the OS's book so I'll review that chapter (planned on going through it yesterday).

The only RAID I have experience with is RAID1 in my office machine so I'm out on a limb right now.

On another topic, what IP cameras would you recommend I look at? They're most likely cost prohibitive at the moment, but that's just what I've seen @ SC black & DWG, I haven't looked too hard yet.

thanks for the help here. I have to mull a few things over. I almost pulled the trigger on the QNAP TS-219P but then I realized I'd have to use win7's 'mirror' option which I'm not familiar with yet. Luckily I just bot the OS's book so I'll review that chapter (planned on going through it yesterday).

 

The only RAID I have experience with is RAID1 in my office machine so I'm out on a limb right now.

RAID1 *is* mirroring. The "mirror" function in Windows 7 is just implementing RAID1 in software. And why would you use the Windows 7 mirroring on the QNAP? The whole point of a device like that is that it handles the RAID internally and lets you hot-swap drives if one dies... all you have to do in Windows is install the iSCSI initiator and point it at the array.

On another topic, what IP cameras would you recommend I look at? They're most likely cost prohibitive at the moment, but that's just what I've seen @ SC black & DWG, I haven't looked too hard yet.

First thing you want to do is look at the compatibility list for whatever NVR or software you're using - there would be no point in anyone recommending a camera if it's not going to work with the system you're using to record it.

So you're suggesting the machine essentially be a NVR, with a remotely located storage unit, with no hard drive in the DVR. I'll have to consider this. Seems like I'd have to have the iSATA device, the switch, & the DVR all on a somewhat-beefy UPS, if not 2 (remotely located network storage)

DiViS, AFAIK, has no limitations on IP cameras. No license fees.

I haven't got my hands on an IP camera yet so I have no idea what kind of limitations there may be. I'll have to check with them on Monday. I will install the IP cam patch later tonight or tomorrow - I'm going skiing after I finish this novel. Last night I finished one unit but it's from ~04-06, & Aventura Technologies put some sort of hardware block on it so it's unable to accept the new software. I should probably just throw in a new card, it's not like there's a shortage of them around here. I have 2 more machines that need attention this weekend - one of them I need to install my 5-pin-din sata power jack/plug so I can remotely install this spare HD - it's going in to replace its prototype next Tuesday.

Here's the IP add-on IP camera patch, 7th one down:

http://www.divisdvr.com/divis/sp_program.asp

and

Here's the manuals - DVR Main is the main one:

http://www.divisdvr.com/divis/sp_manual.asp

So you're suggesting the machine essentially be a NVR, with a remotely located storage unit, with no hard drive in the DVR. I'll have to consider this. Seems like I'd have to have the iSATA device, the switch, & the DVR all on a somewhat-beefy UPS, if not 2 (remotely located network storage)

Something like that. I think we're mixing two discussions, though... if you're wanting to use hidden remote storage for security reasons (concern about the DVR being taken), it makes more sense to me to make that the primary storage, and just be done with it - KISS principle! Units like the QNAPs handle all the RAID internally, and it's very easily managed through the machine's web interface. However, this isn't limited to an NVR; the unit simply looks like another drive letter to Windows, so you simply point your DVR/NVR software at it.

My NVR suggestion was that, if you're going with IP cameras, you use one of QNAP's "Surveillance Station" models: the cameras record directly to the unit, rather than going through a separate PC, and all the management, viewing and playback is done through the unit's web interface. The NVRs are essentially the same core storage unit, but instead of features like UPnP/Bonjour, filesharing, etc. intended for home use, they're designed primarily for recording IP video streams. You eliminate the need for the NVR PC altogether.

I've demo'd hundreds of DVRs. My shelves are filled with thousands of $$$$$$ of embedded units & cards that I've not liked and I won't sell. I go to ISC west each year.

I like what I'm running & it's easy to support, so I doubt I'll be switching to another platform anytime soon. I will check out the companies you mention if they're in Vegas next April.

So assuming your fav IP cams will work with my system (I'm pretty sure they will), do you have a rec for me?

I've demo'd hundreds of DVRs. My shelves are filled with thousands of $$$$$$ of embedded units & cards that I've not liked and I won't sell. I go to ISC west each year.

You don't demo stuff before you buy it?? My experience, most DVRs/NVRs have some sort of online demo (http://qnapsecurity.com/liveDemo.asp for example), and some even offer loaner systems for you to try.

I like what I'm running & it's easy to support, so I doubt I'll be switching to another platform anytime soon. I will check out the companies you mention if they're in Vegas next April.

No problem, everyone has systems they like and prefer to use... just suggesting some options based on your particular situation. A NAS/NVR type unit has some specific benefits, such as built-in RAID support, hot-swappable drive bays, lower power consumption than a PC NVR (so it'll run longer on a smaller UPS), and fully remote operation, so it can be hidden anywhere. Plus, because it's based on a NAS, it can ALSO be used as remote storage for a DVR.

So assuming your fav IP cams will work with my system (I'm pretty sure they will), do you have a rec for me?

We use mostly IQEye, Arecont, and Hikvision cameras. IQ are nice picture with lots of built-in features and configuration options, but they're a little more on the pricey side. Areconts are good picture at fairly low cost, but they're a PITA to install and configure and we've had some serious QA issues with their assembly. Hikvision are good for the price, but the ones I've used have NO low-light capability at all (granted, that's only been a couple models).

We use mostly IQEye, Arecont, and Hikvision cameras. IQ are nice picture with lots of built-in features and configuration options, but they're a little more on the pricey side. Areconts are good picture at fairly low cost, but they're a PITA to install and configure and we've had some serious QA issues with their assembly. Hikvision are good for the price, but the ones I've used have NO low-light capability at all (granted, that's only been a couple models).

Is IQEye your first choice for low-light megapixel IP? Do you have any night sample?

Best,

Christopher

I don't know about FIRST choice.... I've had mixed results. I have an IQ511 looking out at my street and it looks really good at night in color... but does it with a slow shutter, so there's some motion blur. Not TOO terrible, mind you; I've certainly seen a lot worse.

I've put a couple day/night versions of the IQA11 domes, and wasn't too impressed... particularly with the fact that I couldn't set a threshold for the day/night switch. On the other hand, I've put in a few IQ753 day/night box cams that were outstanding at night.

I have seen a Hikvision dome on one site that had amazing low-light performance... it was looking at a parking lot, while there was a day/night Arecont at the other end of the lot, and the Hik looked better, with less motion blur, in color, than the Arecont did in B&W. I'd love to get ahold of another to test, but haven't had the chance.

I'm surprised nobody has brought up day/night IR cameras - here's what looks good to me:

Vivotek FD8161

http://www.vivotek.com/products/model.php?network_camera=fd8161

I recently picked up a vari-focal (NTSC) IR dome cameras that actually rock - up until this point IR was ineffective at best. These ones actually work:

http://www.unixcctv.com/_e/SUPERDOME_Infrared_Camera/product/ID-5635V/SUPERDOME_IR_560_with_2_8_12mm_AVF.htm

This IP cam looks interesting, but not sure how compatible it is at this point: http://www.unixcctv.com/_e/Camera/product/IM-V22/PRIME_PRO_MEGA_2_MP_Weather_Vandal_proof_IP_Infrared_Dome_Camera.htm

One thing I've noticed is that these vendors advertise "VGA Quality" instead of 640x480, just trying to trick a sucker.

So Here it is - it's mounted in a 9 port 12 VDC power supply, 5 amp transformer, with 5 ir cameras connected to it.

I have a custom 5-pin-din connector soldered to the PC's power supply, eSata to Sata cable, and yes, that's hot glue helping secure the cables in place on both the hard drive & on the back of the DVR.

This is a one-off, I like how concealed the hard drive is but I'm not sure if heat will be an issue - I don't expect it to be but I'll duplicate this setup to be sure.

The MB isn't RAID compatible, Raid1 is what's ideal for this situation (IMHO, of course). I had a setup like this back in 04/05 but it used an external enclosure & eventually failed - I just slapped the HD in the case while repairing it a couple of years ago.

Pimpin'!

thanks

I'll be sure to post up if there's any updates.

I'd also like to thank you for the ideas regarding the network scsi etc.

Killer forum, glad I found it.

Soundy, re: NAS,

I ordered the Synology DS209 http ://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822108028

I've read a few reviews & a lot of specs, and some reviewers say these are slow, while some specs say 300 MB/sec, all of them on gigabit lans - it just makes me wonder if it'll be fast enough to record & playback without "knowing" the hard drive is outside of the box or otherwise flub up performance.

Here's one review:

According to Synology, performance for Windows XP transfers are 11.46 / 39.09 / 48.31 MB/sec (upload) and 27.75 / 49.49 / 52.53 MB/sec (download)

Soundy, re: NAS,

 

I ordered the Synology DS209 http ://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822108028

 

I've read a few reviews & a lot of specs, and some reviewers say these are slow, while some specs say 300 MB/sec, all of them on gigabit lans - it just makes me wonder if it'll be fast enough to record & playback without "knowing" the hard drive is outside of the box or otherwise flub up performance.

 

Here's one review:

According to Synology, performance for Windows XP transfers are 11.46 / 39.09 / 48.31 MB/sec (upload) and 27.75 / 49.49 / 52.53 MB/sec (download)

I don't know exactly what the transfer specs are on the Enhance and QNAP boxes we've been using, but they're all working fine using RAID5 and connected to the DVR via GbE... most with 16-20 analog cameras and 4-5 MP cameras. I haven't seen any performance issues with any of them writing to the NAS vs. the internal drives.

Nice. If it's an issue I can always use it in my office & cough up the dough for the model with the atom processor. I almost ordered a similar unit at random about a month ago anyway.

This is one nice thing about being a business owner, I get paid to play. Of course I just work half days too most of the time (12+ hours)

This is one nice thing about being a business owner

There are two benefits to owning your own business. First, you only have to work half days. Second, you get to choose which twelve hours the half day is.

Best,

Christopher

lol christopher, but in my case I don't really get to choose anymore - I just run around like a head with my chicken cut off.