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 Post subject: Re: Xinray Shenzhen china review *** Buyer Beware *** Warnin
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:53 pm 
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Hi I am in the UK. What do you mean hikvision changed their name to hikvision?


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 Post subject: Re: Xinray Shenzhen china review *** Buyer Beware *** Warnin
PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:41 am 
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Just read right through this post and done some research buying from China.

It can seem a bargain to buy Hikvision from China and if everthing goes ok that's great :D BUT if something goes wrong or you want Hikvision 3 year warranty and technical support it's not so great :(

Buying from China does not give you the same right as buying in your own country from an Hikvision Authorised seller.

You have very little right to return a faulty product purchased from China :roll: and if the seller will allow you to make a return, it will likely be at your cost :? and be far more expensive if you do have to do a return than if you bought in your own country in the first place #-o .

Buying from China is going to pose some risk in the transaction SOME RISK, Until Chinese sellers start selling goods with the same return, warranty and customer support as we have in the west.


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 Post subject: Re: Xinray Shenzhen china review *** Buyer Beware *** Warnin
PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:01 am 
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Totally agree if only the UK sales guys would come a bit closer on price though. From China I can get the camera around £100 may have to pay some duty vat etc in the UK some companies have quoted me up to £245 for the same camera which is just crazy. Found a few on eBay who say they are in the UK but when you look into it further they are actually Chinese anyway. What a minefield.

I did bring in my last dahua cameras for around £1000 and was getting quoted £2300 in the UK they have worked well but never got any help with firmware updates etc from the supplier and was left to work it all out myself. Previous cameras from China ended up being fakes which was an absolute knightmare.

Any UK suppliers want to sell me these at a reasonable price please PM me.


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 Post subject: Re: Xinray Shenzhen china review *** Buyer Beware *** Warnin
PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:57 am 
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This is the problem with gray market cameras .... the price ...... the camera listed on here is a lot cheaper than trade from hikvision.

So if hikvision can’t sell at that price ..... it means your getting a copy

It’s like a China Rolex watch for $15 and looks like a $5k genuine the problem is it does not make it a 5k watch

The other problem is everyone (not authorised) selling hikvision are over priced. Because people think hikvision is the best and it’s far from it when you buy gray market.

You either buy a camera with a sticker on it and not care in updates and support or even quality or you forget about name and look for quality support and something that lasts.

The most complained about cctv nvr and cameras on any forum is hikvision .... can’t retrieve footage of footage not found or have to connect hik cam to nvr via onvif ( which should not be needed to use)

But all these problem are not hikvision ...... it’s the gray market hikvision ..... copies of hikvision ....... use a Hikvision NVR with gray market cameras and you get no updates ...... no security patches no support .... but people are always happen with a copy.

It’s like last Christmas all the iPhone 7s bought from China over eBay
People where happy they had an iPhone 7 .....they are not bothered when switched it on it had android software they still think they have a iPhone

Guess what they don’t have ..... an iPhone ..... it’s gray market crap

And that’s the same with hikvision gray market ....... you don’t have a hikvision


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 Post subject: Re: Xinray Shenzhen china review *** Buyer Beware *** Warnin
PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:34 pm 
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The Sale of Gray Market Goods is Now Subject to Criminal Liability in the UK

The recent Court of Appeals decision in the United Kingdom has confirmed that the sale of gray market goods can bring about criminal sanctions under UK trademark laws. According to a decision from earlier this month, the Court of Appeals Criminal Division held that the sale of gray market goods (or parallel imports, as they are sometimes known) – genuine goods purchased outside a manufacturer's intended chain of distribution and imported to compete with authorized domestic sales, generally at lower prices – is not merely a civil offense but a criminal one. Not merely a trivial ruling, this distinction means that offenders could face a sentence of 10 years’ imprisonment.

The case centers on the legality of the sale of authentic Ralph Lauren, Adidas, Under Armour, Jack Wills, and Fred Perry garments and accessories by parties that were not authorized to do so by the aforementioned brands. According to the plaintiffs’ complaint, the defendants were “engaged in the United Kingdom in importing and selling branded goods which were both manufactured and [initially] sold with the authorization of the [plaintiffs] in a country outside the European Union.”

The plaintiffs further allege that “these include, or may include, goods which had been part of an order placed with an authorized manufacturer by the trade mark proprietor but then cancelled; goods part of a batch whose manufacture had been authorized but which, after manufacture, were rejected as not being of sufficient standard; or goods manufactured, pursuant to an order, with authority but in excess of the required amount.”
Because the goods at issue were largely authentic, the issue was not one of trademark infringement or counterfeiting, in which an individual would only be held liable if the goods are counterfeit goods – aka if they feature a mark made to look identical to or substantially indistinguishable from an actual, federally registered trademark, with the intention of causing consumer confusion about the source of the counterfeit goods or services. Here, the case, instead, focused on whether or notan individual can be held criminally liable for selling gray market – authentic, yet questionably obtained and resold – goods.

In particular, the court was faced with the question: “Can a criminal offense be committed under s. 92(1)(b) or (c) of the Trade Marks Act 1994 (the statute that governs trademark infringement) where the [holder] of the registered trademark has given its consent to the application of the registered trademark to the goods, but has not given its consent to the sale, distribution or possession of them?"

CRIMINAL LIABILITY AND GRAY MARKET GOODS IN THE UK

While liability (or lack thereof) for the sale of gray market goods in the U.S. has largely come from civil statutes (namely, copyright and trademark doctrines), the court here found that criminal liability may be the appropriate body of law.
According to the court, “Trademark violation gravely undermines the value of a brand and affects legitimate trade. The very fact of a cheap sale of an unauthorized branded item can both dupe a customer and diminish the market and overall value of the trademark, in terms of perception of quality and exclusivity.” Writing for the court, Judge Rook continued on to state: “In some cases moreover (for example, electrical goods or toys) very real issues of public health and safety can arise where the goods are fake or, even if originally manufactured with the trade mark proprietor's authorization, are then rejected as sub-standard but nevertheless sold on without authorization.”

With this in mind, Rook stated that he aimed to balance “the often unscrupulous conduct of some of those determined to exploit their own advantage and the detriment of proprietors and consumers.”  Looking to “the wording of Section 92; (2) earlier legal authority; (3) public policy,” Rook held that the wording “a sign identical to, or likely to be mistaken for a registered trademark” in Section 92 clearly includes circumstances where the registered mark itself has been applied, whether with or without the proprietor’s consent.

In terms of the second point, previous authority, the court reviewed the leading textbook on trademarks, Kerly’s Law of Trade Marks, which outlined that s. 92 has a broad application and is capable of extending to gray market goods. Furthermore, the recent decision of Genis [2015] EWCA Crim 2043 was a binding authority, outlining that a conviction was safe even where a mark had initially been applied with the proprietor’s consent.
Finally, the court held that public policy crucially highlighted how a cheap sale of an unauthorized brand can serve both to dupe a customer, diminish the mark and overall value of the trade mark and explained that a “very real issue of public health and safety [which] can arise where the goods are rejected as substandard but nevertheless sold without authorization.”

While Judge Rook acknowledged that the decision to extend criminal liability to the sale of gray market goods may lead to tough outcomes in certain cases, the high burden of proof to establish a criminal offense and the fact that criminal sanctions are not applied when individuals have acted honestly and reasonably, will provide a sound balance.


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 Post subject: Re: Xinray Shenzhen china review *** Buyer Beware *** Warnin
PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:11 pm 
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In the uk all that means nothing and same with USA


It's ok hitting the sellers and giving fines

But what does the UK have and also USA.

Everything goes through customs a government body that does nothing


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 Post subject: Re: Xinray Shenzhen china review *** Buyer Beware *** Warnin
PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:26 pm 
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DavidH wrote:
Feel the same Tom. How come others can supply 8mm with ease. Are you a fully authorised hikvision supplier?



we can get 8mm lens from hikvision. but we don't have it in stock for the moment. 8mm lens is seldom needed . and we don't get it in stock . and this is normal. even in Hikvision. if the model is not popular.they won't have them in stock as well. Inventory is money .


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 Post subject: Re: Xinray Shenzhen china review *** Buyer Beware *** Warnin
PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:22 am 
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Xinray wrote:
DavidH wrote:
Feel the same Tom. How come others can supply 8mm with ease. Are you a fully authorised hikvision supplier?



we can get 8mm lens from hikvision. but we don't have it in stock for the moment. 8mm lens is seldom needed . and we don't get it in stock . and this is normal. even in Hikvision. if the model is not popular.they won't have them in stock as well. Inventory is money .



Distributors will hold the stock not hik

And 8mm on 8mp is a good field of view


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 Post subject: Re: Xinray Shenzhen china review *** Buyer Beware *** Warnin
PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:34 am 
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tomcctv wrote:
In the uk all that means nothing and same with USA


It's ok hitting the sellers and giving fines

But what does the UK have and also USA.

Everything goes through customs a government body that does nothing


Better tell the UK Judge then Tom, LoL.

USA legislation on Gray market goods is not the same as UK Legislation.

From what I can make out, Tom, it's not illegal to import Gray market goods but in the UK the selling of un-authorised Gray market goods might be subject to criminal sanctions.

So it seems that sellers of gray market goods are the ones that may be breaking the law. I guess you will have to look into the legal judgments of cases to see how this may effect sellers of gray market goods in the UK. Of course if you are selling the goods from China then it's not going to have much effect, LOL.

I don't think goods officially intended for distribution in the UK are a problem, even if they are sold by un-authorised sellers, it's the gray market goods from what I understand.


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 Post subject: Re: Xinray Shenzhen china review *** Buyer Beware *** Warnin
PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:52 am 
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Wow something else you know nothing about ..........


We are not talking of gray/ copy market jeans or designer cloths.


We are talking electrical goods ..... And by law anything sold in the uk must hold a CE certificate

USA also has there certification

And if you think gray/copy market has those certificates then that's a problem


So if someone imports 1000s of electrical items who should check before they go out into the market place ....... Customs


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 Post subject: Re: Xinray Shenzhen china review *** Buyer Beware *** Warnin
PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:24 pm 
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tomcctv wrote:
Wow something else you know nothing about ..........


We are not talking of gray/ copy market jeans or designer cloths.


We are talking electrical goods ..... And by law anything sold in the uk must hold a CE certificate

USA also has there certification

And if you think gray/copy market has those certificates then that's a problem


So if someone imports 1000s of electrical items who should check before they go out into the market place ....... Customs




Where did the Judge restrict his judgement, regarding the "sale of Gray marked goods", solely, to Jeans and designer clothes?

Part of the Judges decision below:

” Writing for the court, Judge Rook continued on to state: “In some cases moreover (for example, electrical goods or toys) very real issues of public health and safety can arise where the goods are fake or, even if originally manufactured with the trade mark proprietor's authorization, are then rejected as sub-standard but nevertheless sold on without authorization.”

Looking at what the Judge wrote. I would take it that goods genuinely intended for the UK market could have CE mark but have been rejected and still sold on the Uk market without Authorisation, and so subject to criminal Law.

CE marking was not at the centre of the post, it was the judges decision relating to the "sale of "Gray Goods" and the UK Law.


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 Post subject: Re: Xinray Shenzhen china review *** Buyer Beware *** Warnin
PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:54 pm 
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Quote:
Looking at what the Judge wrote. I would take it that goods genuinely intended for the UK market could have CE mark but have been rejected and still sold on the Uk market without Authorisation, and so subject to criminal Law.



No such thing as rejected CE mark ......... It's rejected before conformity.

Gray / copy market ....... The CE is not real

The manufacturer who holds the CE conformity...... Is where the liability starts


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 Post subject: Re: Xinray Shenzhen china review *** Buyer Beware *** Warnin
PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:54 pm 
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tomcctv wrote:
Quote:
Looking at what the Judge wrote. I would take it that goods genuinely intended for the UK market could have CE mark but have been rejected and still sold on the Uk market without Authorisation, and so subject to criminal Law.



No such thing as rejected CE mark ......... It's rejected before conformity.

Gray / copy market ....... The CE is not real

The manufacturer who holds the CE conformity...... Is where the liability starts


It depends why the goods are rejected, they may conform to specific CE standards but rejected for other reasons not related to the specific CE standard.

Throwing the CE marking into this is just sidetracking the post and does nothing to provide anything to the contrary that "Sale of Grey Goods being subject to Criminal Liability in the UK".

Chinese Manufacturers can easily produce goods to meet CE standards. I buy goods all the time that used to be manufactured in Germany and the UK but are now manufactured in China. Top brand names, all CE marked, and that I can register at the brand name website.


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 Post subject: Re: Xinray Shenzhen china review *** Buyer Beware *** Warnin
PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:20 pm 
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You have no clue.

Quote:
Chinese Manufacturers can easily produce goods to meet CE standards. I buy goods all the time that used to be manufactured in Germany and the UK but are now manufactured in China. Top brand names, all CE marked, and that I can register at the brand name website.


Yes that's called genuine products. We're talking gray / copy / counterfeit products. With CE mark with no inspection.


The Chinese government was asked about miss use of the CE mark
Which they copy exact....... They call it China export logo


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 Post subject: Re: Xinray Shenzhen china review *** Buyer Beware *** Warnin
PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:20 pm 
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tomcctv wrote:
You have no clue.

Quote:
Chinese Manufacturers can easily produce goods to meet CE standards. I buy goods all the time that used to be manufactured in Germany and the UK but are now manufactured in China. Top brand names, all CE marked, and that I can register at the brand name website.


Yes that's called genuine products. We're talking gray / copy / counterfeit products. With CE mark with no inspection.


The Chinese government was asked about miss use of the CE mark
Which they copy exact....... They call it China export logo



No, I referenced an article about "The Sale of Grey Goods and Uk Law" but that's not to say do not have valid points in respect of copy/counterfeit goods and CE marking.


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