DIY Kit solution for a small business possible?

[Arkilae 0]

Hello, new here, as you can see and I need some help with a CCTV DIY job. If this is in the wrong section I apologize.

 

First off I have zero experience with installing CCTV systems, the client I am working for is asking me to do the job because he does not want to pay an exorbitant amount as he did before for his first CCTV system. Chiefly he is looking at DIY kits from the likes of Costco etc. for his small business. He has tasked me with this job because I am his usual tech guy for his computer systems and I said I could do it, possibly a mistake but this is part of my job, I work for him.

 

I also had to solve some software related issues with the previous CCTV system because the guys who he contracted for the job left him without some features working such as remote viewing and some video feed problems. Obviously if we decide on a DIY kit it will come with instructions and most of the equipment but as with all things not all the information you need or the equipment can be provided if you run in to problems or small issues.

 

On to some questions.

 

1. Since I will be installing this in a small business location, the ceiling panels are going to be tiled. Is there any thing I should know about these panels and what it is like to work with them while installing a camera and wiring?

 

2. He wants an eight camera system for his 1400 SQFT location one in the back, one in the front (those two being out doors) and the rest inside. The location is about 60-70 feet deep, would 80 feet of cabling cover it?

 

3. Is there any thing I should know about the electrical cables for the cameras? I have researched that most of these systems have a small power supply unit, which is a box which you connect the cameras power cables in to, and then to a wall socket, is there any thing else?

 

What I am looking for is advice in both installing the cameras and find the right system. I am still reading and still learning about this as I go, and in the end I hope to provide a job well done and pick up some experience and education on security systems as I do this work. Obviously if we decide on a DIY kit it will come with instructions and most of the equipment but as with all things not all the information you need or the equipment can be provided if you run in to problems or small issues.

 

My biggest concern would be the PSU simply because from what I can tell there is an electrical outlet running from the PSU to a nearby wall socket, however there is a fifth power cable running from the PSU along with the BNC cables and the power cables up in to the ceiling and we can't seem to find out where that leads to so it may be connected to the fuse box.

 

Thank you all again.

[danger_e 0]

That's quite a list of questions.

 

First off, stay away from those Costco kits. They are absolute crap. The cameras suck, and the DVRs don't usually record very well.

 

As far as your questions go:

 

1. Drop ceilings have different rules in different places, I know that here in Washington state, cameras mounted through tile have to be anchored somehow. Check with someone familiar with the local fire code.

 

2. Depends on how you run the cable. I'd say buy a spool and run the cable, THEN cut it.

 

3. Again, this is dependent on how you run the cable, but I'd recommend a locked power box.

[Soundy 1]

It's hard to say whether your client actually got ripped off on his previous system, without knowing just what it was and what you classify as "exorbitant", but this is an industry where you really do get what you pay for, at least as far as equipment (can't speak for labor or markup). You go cheap... you get cheap. I'd put dollars to donuts, you put in any kind of "DIY kit" system, your client will end up being unhappy with the results.

[Arkilae 0]

Thank you both for your replies.

 

Let me first say it was quite a bit for a small setup that consisted of only four cameras and none of the cameras unless you are about five feet away will give you a clear image of the person in front of it. They also has I said failed to get the remote viewing working and one of the cameras had a bad feed. I can't give specifics but he did pay in excess of 1,000.

 

Since you both agree that I should stay away from a DIY kit what would be your suggestions then regarding finding something around the range of 500-700$ that would be a better system.

[thewireguys 3]

So he paid north of $1000 for his old system and was not happy with the results and now he wants to spend less and wants better

 

What does he want? a cheap system or a quality system (pick one)

 

Out of these two images which one does he expect the system to look like?

 

 

[Arkilae 0]

So he paid north of $1000 for his old system and was not happy with the results and now he wants to spend less and wants better

 

What does he want? a cheap system or a quality system (pick one)

 

Out of these two images which one does he expect the system to look like?

 

 

 

Definitely the bottom one currently the image above that one is better than the live recording of his current set up.

[rory 0]

Something wrong with that DVR or camera

 

video samples of slightly cleaner standard CCTV cameras: *compressed during conversion

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=159423680738890

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=159414440739814

 

the following are comparisons, shrunk to CIF forreasons below

Top right camera is cheap CNB dfl-20s dome.

bottom domes are CNB vbm-24vfs. this captured over the network from an 8 year old bad DVR with 256MB ram and an old celeron CPU, has poor evidence sharing, basically client needs a new DVR in this case ... no its not MP but hey.. just to give a better example of what to expect from a regular CCTV camera, not the cheap $10 kmart ones. - if you want an image on your PC like the bottom one that thewireguys posted above, then you will need MP IP cameras.

[rory 0]

Since you both agree that I should stay away from a DIY kit what would be your suggestions then regarding finding something around the range of 500-700$ that would be a better system.

 

You will have great difficulty finding a quality 8 camera system for your price range.

Even at first cost dealer pricing it will be difficult, then have to add in markup, wiring, power, labour etc.

8 basic but okay cameras alone will take out almost your whole budget.

[danger_e 0]

I agree with Rory, it's probably safe to budget at least $50 per camera (though you can probably find "pre-owned" cameras on e-bay). For the cameras at the doors, I'd suggest cameras that have WDR, but those will cost quite a bit more.

 

But keep in mind, $50 is a cheap, cheap camera!

 

For that power box, here's the one that I've used before: http://www.altronix.com/p_php/specs.php?model_num=ALTV248600&sessUid=300&language=1&header=1

[tomcctv 188]

Thank you both for your replies.

 

Let me first say it was quite a bit for a small setup that consisted of only four cameras and none of the cameras unless you are about five feet away will give you a clear image of the person in front of it. They also has I said failed to get the remote viewing working and one of the cameras had a bad feed. I can't give specifics but he did pay in excess of 1,000.

 

Since you both agree that I should stay away from a DIY kit what would be your suggestions then regarding finding something around the range of 500-700$ that would be a better system.

 

 

For that price if i was you i would say to your boss you cant fitt cctv. then when he has another cheap system installed only to find that is also crap he cant sack you or blame you.

[bigcatbobcat 0]

I just quoted what I consider a "good" (not great and not optimum but they'll see what they want to see) for a 750-1000 sq foot pizza place for $1001, exactly. You can buy "good" kits, from any of an assortment of websites and the big box stores. If he's wanting to see the difference between $ amounts on bills going to a register, you'd want a mega pixel IP, you can get a Hybrid DVR but that will double your budget ($500-$750) right off the bat, then just that one camera looking at the register will be $300ish?

 

If you want regular cameras, general views, and regular recording and playback, you could go with a kit. The main drawback to a kit is, usually, all the cameras will be the same.

[shropna 0]

So he paid north of $1000 for his old system and was not happy with the results and now he wants to spend less and wants better

 

What does he want? a cheap system or a quality system (pick one)

 

Out of these two images which one does he expect the system to look like?

 

 

Sorry of O.T., but, by my opinion, both images is bad...

First image can be better, if you will use encoder with better composite signal color filter

Second, if you will use megapixel camera with better dynamics range

[rory 0]

Sorry of O.T., but, by my opinion, both images is bad...

First image can be better, if you will use encoder with better composite signal color filter

Second, if you will use megapixel camera with better dynamics range

I think the avilgon 16MP would be perfect for that location

[shropna 0]

I think the avilgon 16MP would be perfect for that location

Good joke, but not that, what i want to said

For example, Lots of encoders has more better color signal filters, and you will not see "color bars" near image small details.

Megapixel cameras can have more better dynamic range, than in this picture, with the same pixels quantity

[Arkilae 0]

I just quoted what I consider a "good" (not great and not optimum but they'll see what they want to see) for a 750-1000 sq foot pizza place for $1001, exactly. You can buy "good" kits, from any of an assortment of websites and the big box stores. If he's wanting to see the difference between $ amounts on bills going to a register, you'd want a mega pixel IP, you can get a Hybrid DVR but that will double your budget ($500-$750) right off the bat, then just that one camera looking at the register will be $300ish?

 

If you want regular cameras, general views, and regular recording and playback, you could go with a kit. The main drawback to a kit is, usually, all the cameras will be the same.

 

$1000 custom? How many cameras?

 

Look I can assure you he got ripped off on his last CCTV job, he doesn't want that to happen again, if you're quoting $500 for what is essentially a simple camera that does nothing then sit there and record then you have a different type of business that you're trying to protect or cater towards. For this we need general overview as deterrents, and a camera that will allow us to identify people coming in and out of the store as a means to protect.

 

I found some of the components used for the previous job on Newegg for $40 (PSU) and the cameras ($50) I note the previous job they did not instruct him also on how to maintain the system nor gave him a spec sheet or quote. Take that as it is, I however would prefer to do a better job and from the prices I'm seeing on some of the kits or individual cameras/dvrs/psu/cabling this could be done for less than what he paid for the previous job with better quality cameras and a DVR.

 

I do have a few more questions now though.

 

1. If we were to get a nice DIY kit and the DVR supported a recording resolution of both D1/4CIF and CIF would it be possible to use that DVR and a separate higher end camera for use in identifying individuals entering the store? This probably depends on the DVR but from the ones I've looked at they all say they can record at D1 between 7.5 FPS to 15FPS. For example we have seven cameras recording in CIF and the eighth recording using the D1 camera and recording at the same resolution to the DVR.

 

2. Would a power supply unit that comes with the DIY kit be sufficient for powering the high end camera?

 

3. You guys have offered a lot of advice but can you offer me suggestions regarding companies to buy from? Rather than just shooting in the dark with somewhat dodgy Chinese and Korean manufacturers like LTS and Q-See.

 

Thank you all again for your help.

[Soundy 1]

Don't sacrifice resolution for framerate. Even 5fps is *more* than sufficient for most sorts of retail uses. No, it doesn't give you smooth, TV-like movement... but you're not producing for TV, you're recording for review of events, and evidence. In this kind of instance, you don't need to see what's happening every 1/30 of a second... in fact, once per second will do a good portion of the time.

 

If you need to use a lower framerate to achieve a higher resolution, by all means, that that option over lower res/higher fps.

[bigcatbobcat 0]

Yeah, 5 fps is pretty much standard. Much more and you dont have enough space, although, space is cheaper and cheaper these days. The pizza folks named their budget and I pared it down to what would work for them. 4 cameras, network H.264 DVR, IR's on the cameras...standard deal. I even used pre-made cable to save on labor, don't hate! You gotta do what you gotta do sometimes and they are a new store, family folks and I'll be there for them when they want to upgrade.

 

Anyway, to your questions: usually, you set up each camera to record the way you want it to record individually. So your one tight shot of exit (I always get shots of people going out rather than coming in, if someone comes in with ill intent they're keeping their head down and probably a hat or hood, watching them go you'll see them looking out the door and much less guarded), so you set that one up at your highest resolution, higher frame rate if you want (everyone says 5fps is more than enough) and get a varifocal lens and good DSP/CCD whatever. This thing looks like a beast and probably overkill but it's along the lines of what I mean: http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ModelDetail?displayTab=O&storeId=11201&catalogId=13051&itemId=105037&catGroupId=14459&surfModel=WV-CW484S/15

 

Some of those plug in units with the pig-tail splitter deals work ok, you just have to look at the power to drive each camera and see if the power supply gives you enough amperage, or mili-amperage.

 

I almost sound like I know what I'm talking about!