Need help on a big project!

[tesc_cctvpro 0]

You can have your beams hardwired to your cctv system. If you are going with beams I would do an in depth comparison of IP vs Analog cctv.

At this point i am not certain that PTZ's are the way to go ---- was just a comment on how effective a PTZ is for the investigative function of cctv. (Every detection device, including beams will give false positives)

 

You see as soon as you mention PTZ then you have a flurry of marketers trying to sell you this or that brand or technology. BUT ---- nobody has asked you yet if you need to record anything.

 

So some further questions:

 

- the target you wish to observe is i gather limited to people?

- The activity that would concern you is people crossing the perimeter line.

(A lot of simple analog cctv systems can provide you with perimeter line analytics....thats an invisible line doing exactly what those beams are going to be doing - Analytics though not really a mature, technology at this point unless you go with really expensive dedicated systems)

Do you need to know immediately they cross the perimeter, or are there what we would call "pinch points" (Points that a target would have to pass through in order to get to areas of vulnerability?)

When people cross your perimeter line they can be pretty innovative, they walk upright , they crawl, they do many things.

- The reason you need to detect this breach is to................? Alert armed guards? Activate a facility alert?? To investigate the breach is not the reason you need to detect....investigating it aids in achieving the purpose. So you have to include into your design parameters - what you actually intend doing - once you have confirmed that somebody has crossed the perimeter - some may disagree, but the actions you will need to perform once confirmation is attained, is going to have a significant impact on the type of system or technology you ultimately choose>

 

Now once you have determined whether you need visual verification and established what you want to do with that visual verification, or what action must follow out of viewing the image --- that is going to define the level of surveillance you need -- monitor, detect, recognize ---etc. If is just purely monitoring level surveillance, all these expensive hi tech high definition surveillance cameras are just wasting your money.

 

There is so much more to this that I couldn't possibly run through it all on this forum - I would suggest you get hold of a professional security company ----- not a CCTV guy. Somebody who is going to want to understand what other security systems you already have on the premises, how the solutions they propose will interact with existing systems, and asks similar questions to what I have been asking.

 

Please - avoid at all costs , those guys that ask you where you want to put a camera and then start telling you , you need this camera or that ---- the biggest indicator of caution, is when they start popping brand names - usually you are going to have a branded solution force fitted to your problem.

 

Does it sound like overkill? Well unless you actually succeed in reducing or limiting whatever it is that has been happening to move you to consider monitoring your perimeter - any system or device you install was a complete waste of money. isn't the investment in the time required to do it properly the first time - a lot less expensive.

 

PS ----- If you ask a specific performance question such as are there beams that do so and so, a response such as product x has this spec would not be out of place

[tomcctv 187]

There is so much more to this that I couldn't possibly run through it all on this forum - I would suggest you get hold of a professional security company ----- not a CCTV guy. Somebody who is going to want to understand what other security systems you already have on the premises, how the solutions they propose will interact with existing systems, and asks similar questions to what I have been asking.

 

 

sorry if its CCTV you are looking for then yes talk to a cctv guy

 

Please - avoid at all costs , those guys that ask you where you want to put a camera and then start telling you , you need this camera or that ---- the biggest indicator of caution, is when they start popping brand names - usually you are going to have a branded solution force fitted to your problem.

 

 

nothing wrong with brand names. much better back-up and a true warranty. ok they may cost a little more than brown box cameras from china. but with using brand names by a cctv installer or seller is they do know the limits of the camera and it will do its job for that area to protect.

 

 

why not give your location they are many on here from canada and there are many places you can buy from in canada saves you importing (if you dont know cctv then you dont know what your importing)

[tesc_cctvpro 0]

There is so much more to this that I couldn't possibly run through it all on this forum - I would suggest you get hold of a professional security company ----- not a CCTV guy. Somebody who is going to want to understand what other security systems you already have on the premises, how the solutions they propose will interact with existing systems, and asks similar questions to what I have been asking.

 

 

sorry if its CCTV you are looking for then yes talk to a cctv guy

 

I've seen this very often ---- CCTV is not a security system, it's a security tool that has to be used in conjunction with other security systems, and physical security concepts. IF all the guy knows is CCTV --- you are in harms way if you're looking for a security solution.

 

Please - avoid at all costs , those guys that ask you where you want to put a camera and then start telling you , you need this camera or that ---- the biggest indicator of caution, is when they start popping brand names - usually you are going to have a branded solution force fitted to your problem.

 

 

nothing wrong with brand names. much better back-up and a true warranty. ok they may cost a little more than brown box cameras from china. but with using brand names by a cctv installer or seller is they do know the limits of the camera and it will do its job for that area to protect.

 

 

why not give your location they are many on here from canada and there are many places you can buy from in canada saves you importing (if you dont know cctv then you dont know what your importing)

 

I have no problem with brand names - of course you must use branded products.

 

The implication is to be cautious of those who start offering a solution before defining the problem - and my experience has been that those sorts are normally punting a brand that they can get at a good price or deal!

[Securame 0]

not a slip of the tongue ill stand by it. cameras to be used at alert motion back to dvr to send report or alert does not work hence why i said beams. also beams are more reliable than PIR (which give the same problem false alarms)

 

I do think it does work great, but with some "but"s.

 

I do have motion detection with email alert at my shop, and I think it works great (it gets "tested" once in a while when someone stays here until late, and once a week when they come clean at 8:00). I get notified by email+screenshots whenever there is movement on 4 cameras, weekdays from 20:00 to 09:00, 24 hours on weekends. It did need some tweaking the first days, but I have not had to touch it again. They are all indoor cameras. I did have to remove the alerts on 2 IR cameras, since anything flying near it at night (bugs), would make the DVR email me. I did leave 4 other cameras with MD+email(without IR, but seing with the IR from other cameras), those do not give me any false positives, ever (at least until today).

 

That said, I am sure it would not work in this case, since they are all outdoors cameras. There would be tons of false positives, video MD on outdoors cameras will always have them. If you want email alerts, you will need to use the alarm inputs with beams or whatever else can help there.

[thewireguys 3]

 

I have no problem with brand names - of course you must use branded products.

 

The implication is to be cautious of those who start offering a solution before defining the problem - and my experience has been that those sorts are normally punting a brand that they can get at a good price or deal!

 

 

Are you kidding me man? Guys that push no name products from China don't last long around here. They get NO support and products that NEVER do that the manufacture claims.

 

I test every single piece of gear BEFORE I begin to sell it to end users. You might wanna do a little research before you make claims like this.

 

By the time you buy the beams and run all the cables for control and power and get them installed VideoIQ will be cheaper and a better solution.

[tesc_cctvpro 0]

Are you kidding me man? Guys that push no name products from China don't last long around here. They get NO support and products that NEVER do that the manufacture claims.

 

I test every single piece of gear BEFORE I begin to sell it to end users. You might wanna do a little research before you make claims like this.

 

By the time you buy the beams and run all the cables for control and power and get them installed VideoIQ will be cheaper and a better solution.

 

Who is pushing no name chinese brands here ---- surely they can't be serious?

[tomcctv 187]

Who is pushing no name chinese brands

 

 

80% of no name brands are from china

[tesc_cctvpro 0]

Who is pushing no name chinese brands

 

 

80% of no name brands are from china

 

LOL --- What is a brand? and how does it get to be NO-Name

 

I suspect a lot of people use the term No Name brand --- for brands other than what they are selling!

[tomcctv 187]

LOL --- What is a brand? and how does it get to be NO-Name

 

 

thats simple when it has no-name were can you get support or a good return policy.

 

no-name is a bin job if it fails. which is bad for the install company and bad for your customer.

[tesc_cctvpro 0]

LOL --- What is a brand? and how does it get to be NO-Name

 

 

thats simple when it has no-name were can you get support or a good return policy.

 

no-name is a bin job if it fails. which is bad for the install company and bad for your customer.

 

Your statement is a misnomer - Nothing that doesn't have a name on it can possibly be called a "Brand".

 

I have seen too many people try to rubbish other brands under the pretext that it's no name Chinese Junk.

 

I can guarantee you there is a lot of branded junk being sold in the good old USA and London Town, and then there are quality products. The same is true in every location. There is tons of junk in China, but there are also powerful brands and technologies being patented in China and other countries outside the US/UK. There are brands more powerful than their US counterparts in sectors of the Chinese economy to which the western brands are still struggling to gain entrance.

 

Why divert these conversation with this emotional junk ------ Help the customer define their requirements, once that is done fit a product/brand/technology that meets the criteria. If your brand doesn't, install a brand that does--if yours does and it meets the budget, install it.

 

But don't put the solution out there before you have even defined the problem.

 

I have not even yet recommended one product/technology/brand to the above solution - because I haven't defined the requirements , yet you accuse me of marketing Chinese No name Junk!! Whats with that?

[tomcctv 187]

Your statement is a misnomer - Nothing that doesn't have a name on it can possibly be called a "Brand".

 

 

 

point me out a good camera. with good tech and returns policy and 3 years warranty. post the spec

[tesc_cctvpro 0]

Your statement is a misnomer - Nothing that doesn't have a name on it can possibly be called a "Brand".

 

 

 

point me out a good camera. with good tech and returns policy and 3 years warranty. post the spec

 

Once again the thread deviating too widely form the topic at hand ----- I was looking forward to additional questions from the original poster --- but i gather he won't be too eager after all of this.

 

What in the world -- does this have to do with the posted topic, with the help that the poster has requested!

 

There are so many good cameras, with good tech, with 3 years warranty . You don't even know yet for certain that this guys problem even must have CCTV - so what's the point of discussing cameras and technology!

 

By the way --- I have cameras that are good, My customers can get support 24 hours a day, and they do phone me out of bed on Sunday mornings, and they do have 3 year warranties --- but again, what in th world does this have to do with the posters issues????

[tomcctv 187]

You don't even know yet for certain that this guys problem even must have CCTV - so what's the point of discussing cameras and technology!

 

 

 

i think comming onto forum with a $5k budget for an 8 camera system gives it away.

 

 

the biggest indicator of caution, is when they start popping brand names

 

 

thats the only reason i brought it up. only to say you get good warranty

 

My customers can get support 24 hours a day, and they do phone me out of bed on Sunday mornings, and they do have 3 year warranties --- but again, what in th world does this have to do with the posters issues????

 

does not count ... your not a manufactura. that is a service that you provide just like every company on here

[tesc_cctvpro 0]

You don't even know yet for certain that this guys problem even must have CCTV - so what's the point of discussing cameras and technology!

 

 

 

i think comming onto forum with a $5k budget for an 8 camera system gives it away.

 

 

the biggest indicator of caution, is when they start popping brand names

 

 

thats the only reason i brought it up. only to say you get good warranty

 

My customers can get support 24 hours a day, and they do phone me out of bed on Sunday mornings, and they do have 3 year warranties --- but again, what in th world does this have to do with the posters issues????

 

does not count ... your not a manufactura. that is a service that you provide just like every company on here

 

Oh heavens :

 

Yeah -----> and going back to the drawing board to what was originally considered, beams --- gives away that the actual performance requirements need to be properly defined first. The problem is that although something appears obvious at first glance, often times what is so glaringly obvious turns out not to be the best solution.

 

We have had numerous customer with large budgets call us for proposals on cctv, and end up never installing a camera, on the other hand we have also had the reverse -

 

I can see why you raised the brand name issue - not why you accused me of promoting no name brand items though? So i will explain why i raised it ----- as an indicator to caution, because I have usually found that people who try to offer solutions before defining the performance requirements, are usually brand marketers.

 

Of course on the flip side many professionals when matching Technical Specifications that have been determined by performance requirements to a specific product, will always select reputable or proven brands.

 

Lol, I just dropped the last part in there for fun - because you asked me to show you such a camera, without any further qualification

[tomcctv 187]

Yeah -----> and going back to the drawing board to what was originally considered, beams --- gives away that the actual performance requirements need to be properly defined first. The problem is that although something appears obvious at first glance, often times what is so glaringly obvious turns out not to be the best solution

 

 

to have alarm notification outside can be very unreliable at the best of times. to the point that it is switched off. optex beams is a good reliable option. unlike redwall pir (owned by optex) which some companies use are good for indoor open space or for switching lights on. and beams are cheaper than redwall in price.

 

We have had numerous customer with large budgets call us for proposals on cctv, and end up never installing a camera

 

why is this. did you not have the right equipment or did you talk your customer out of having cctv.

 

 

I have usually found that people who try to offer solutions before defining the performance requirements, are usually brand marketers.

 

how can recommending good quality warranted equipment be classed as brand marketering.

 

let just put a small system together by everything from corner store 4 cameras 1 dvr power monitor ...... 2 cameras go down after a month. who is going to pay the cost to put it right ???

[tesc_cctvpro 0]

Yeah -----> and going back to the drawing board to what was originally considered, beams --- gives away that the actual performance requirements need to be properly defined first. The problem is that although something appears obvious at first glance, often times what is so glaringly obvious turns out not to be the best solution

 

 

to have alarm notification outside can be very unreliable at the best of times. to the point that it is switched off. optex beams is a good reliable option. unlike redwall pir (owned by optex) which some companies use are good for indoor open space or for switching lights on. and beams are cheaper than redwall in price.

 

We have had numerous customer with large budgets call us for proposals on cctv, and end up never installing a camera

 

why is this. did you not have the right equipment or did you talk your customer out of having cctv.

 

 

I have usually found that people who try to offer solutions before defining the performance requirements, are usually brand marketers.

 

how can recommending good quality warranted equipment be classed as brand marketering.

 

let just put a small system together by everything from corner store 4 cameras 1 dvr power monitor ...... 2 cameras go down after a month. who is going to pay the cost to put it right ???

 

I think we are talking in circles------

 

You haven't gotten a single thing i wrote about - so i just hope opposite got it, and spends a little more time defining actual operational requirements before settling on a solution or combinations of solutions.

 

Regarding the rest, we could continue all month talking over one another's heads --- it's not gonna get either of us anywhere!

[tomcctv 187]

yes i think you are right. but thats only because you dont answer questions.

 

 

have you ever used beams for alarm detection ?

 

do you agree no name equipment can cost more money to put right without warranty

 

We have had numerous customer with large budgets call us for proposals on cctv, and end up never installing a camera,

 

 

but this is just out of curiosity. why do they never install ???

[tesc_cctvpro 0]

yes i think you are right. but thats only because you dont answer questions.

 

Perhaps because they are so far off the topic at the top of the thread!

 

have you ever used beams for alarm detection ?

 

Yes --- Once I stuck a battery operated wireless beam to my wall with prestic! Worked like a charm.

 

Some of our integrator partners have more than 35 years experience in alarm systems, beams and electrified fencing ------ it's not uncommon to find beams in many residential and business ceilings in South African premises - as we arguably have one of the highest crime rates in the world. Do you normally ask security people if they have ever used beams.?

 

do you agree no name equipment can cost more money to put right without warranty

 

Who wouldn't? - now that's one reason i don't answer such questions normally , because I have not recommended one no name product -- in fact i have recommended no product, so asking the question is frivolous!!!

 

We have had numerous customer with large budgets call us for proposals on cctv, and end up never installing a camera,

 

 

but this is just out of curiosity. why do they never install ???

 

OM-------> Because we established that something else was a more effective solution than CCTV and we sold it to them ----> Sometime a PIR operated paint pall gun could be more effective than a camera

[tomcctv 187]

Because we established that something else was a more effective solution than CCTV and we sold it to them ----> Sometime a PIR operated paint pall gun could be more effective than a camera

 

 

so a company comes to you with a big budget for cctv and you sell them a paint ball gun.

 

so were is the protection in that. car damage / theft / identification / protection.

[tesc_cctvpro 0]

Because we established that something else was a more effective solution than CCTV and we sold it to them ----> Sometime a PIR operated paint pall gun could be more effective than a camera

 

 

so a company comes to you with a big budget for cctv and you sell them a paint ball gun.

 

so were is the protection in that. car damage / theft / identification / protection.

 

You are the funniest guy i have met in a long time ----- you did allow me a really good laugh though, and I would have liked to continue the discussion, but at 23.00 here it's getting a bit late, and my eye's are drooping !

 

I am printing out this really neat line and posting it up on my office wall:

 

So a company comes to you with a big budget for cctv and you sell them a paint ball gun

---------tomcctv - 2011

[tomcctv 187]

listen there your words your posts. and to be honest i think alot of people will also think you dont know why there is a need for cctv ...... a paint ball gun might work in south africa but not in the uk.

 

 

but i will say what is funny. you. and ill post them if you like. you are asking alsorts of questions HDcctv HDip questions you are getting off 2 other forums then getting answers from here and posting back. sorry that is funny and to be honest sad.

[tomcctv 187]

Hey guys, I'm trying to setup an 8 camera system to cover the outside perimeter of a

200 x 75 foot land area.

 

I drew a little picture to try to give the general idea. The green cameras are the optional ones

 

 

Ideally we will have 8 cameras to save costs, but a 10 camera system would be better.

 

The cameras must be: We were thinking of going with dome cameras.

 

- Vandal Proof

- Have decent nightvision (there are lights on at night. About 200 watts for every 2 cameras)

- Motion detection

 

I've been doing some research, seems that a 2.8mm lens will give an 81 degree field of vision, which is not enough to fully cover the area with 8 cameras. Can someone recommend a camera with a wider field of vision, if they exist?

 

These will be in Candian winter where conditions are in the -20C sometimes. Will I need a heater for the cameras for the cold winters?

 

 

Questions:

 

- What is the range of motion detection? I'm guessing it depends on the camera, but on average.

 

- The max wiring will be about 200 feet. I am undecided if it will be easier to use RG59 with 18/2 wire or cat 5 cable (using 3 for power and 1 for video, or whatever is better).

 

 

And the main questions:

 

- Is it possible to do this without any professional help?

 

- Can anyone recommend any sites to buy equipment and ship to Canada?

 

I know I have a lot of questions and I appreciate all answers.

 

Thank you all.

 

 

sorry for highjacking yor post oppositeofh20.

 

 

you do have a good budget for doing the install yourself. but i would use some better cameras than what you have listed to atleast get some identifacation be it person or car.

 

 

like the wireguys have said :::

 

VideoIQ is the real deal. PTZs have moving parts that can fail and most PTZ only have a 6 month warranty.

 

You can detect people cars and boats day or night 24/7 (with IR or white light) with minimum false positives. You can trigger events or alerts based off rules. If you just want to receive and email only when 2 people are on your lot for more then 5 seconds you can do that.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1RdBtHcaGw

 

_________________

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Demo Cameras Forsale

 

 

 

 

or you could also look at hybrid systems mix and match or standard and ip cameras using the ip for more detail in your needed areas

 

http://www.aver.com/Surveillance/Product/Detail.aspx?id=263

https://www.exacq.com/products/hybridservers.html

[rory 0]

By the time you buy the beams and run all the cables for control and power and get them installed VideoIQ will be cheaper and a better solution.

 

CCTV doesnt replace a burglar alarm, plus beams are not expensive, alarm systems are peanuts compared to CCTV.

[rory 0]

does not count ... your not a manufactura. that is a service that you provide just like every company on here

But who IS a manufacturer these days? Vitek? Nope. Speco? Nope. Pelco? Hardly. Honeywell? Barely.

Anyone can buy a camera from someone that made it, then stick their name on it.

And the whole warranty and support thing I dont buy .. literally .. you have to be in the same country as the so called "Manufacturer" to get the kind of warranties you are talking about. The only warranty I want is from the person I bought it from, that it works when I plug it in .. later on if it fails then its my problem, like power issues or lightning.

 

I buy branded though, but not because of any warranty in the US or UK, I buy branded because we know what that camera is and what it can do as it has a name and model number and others have used it - eg. someone has a no name camera, how can I tell someone else go buy the "no name camera" ...

[tomcctv 187]

But who IS a manufacturer these days? Vitek? Nope. Speco? Nope. Pelco? Hardly. Honeywell? Barely.

 

 

your right but its not hard to find the true maker speco and jet is Huviron Honeywell uk is CNB they have taken alot of cameras out of there range

 

am lucky in that i can buy direct from both huviron and CNB. and both will remove any sales from uk on ebay. so no price war. we do get the odd company from usa but selling NTSC in a pal location makes no sence

 

but warrant is good 3 years on 1 5 on the other. i would not like to be spending my profits on a camera that has only just gone out or warranty and fail after 13 months