Looking for some answers and input on my proposed system

[Anymouse 0]

Hi everyone, great website.

 

I, like many others, have had some theft/vandalism problems in my neighborhood and now that some b@stards got us and busted my cars' windows out and rummaged around to find nothing worth value (we're not stupid), I'm done playing around. Immediately after the break-ins I ran out and bought a cheap Chinese 4-channel DVR system and threw it up to hold me over while I researched enough to design and build a decent 'real' security system.

 

I've been searching and reading for nearly the last month straight and have found some invaluable info from this website (thanks!), among others. I feel that I might understand enough now to ask some reasonable questions and ask for some reasonable input on what I've learned and decided on so far.

 

My initial budget was $5k for the surveillance part of it but I quickly figured out that that's not sensible for a decent full IP/NVR setup, so my budget is considerably more flexible now, might just take a camera at a time for a little while after an initial 8. I'll be doing the full install myself.

I must admit, I'm going way overkill, but this is as much of a fun project for me as it is for security (read: cool as all hell ), and there won't be many loopholes to exploit.

 

So, I'd like some input on some cameras and a few other questions if you don't mind...

 

I've decided on a QNAP VS-4016 Pro 16-channel NVR (w/4 2TB HD's in RAID 5) based on its standalone design, versatility, storage capacity, and lack of 'licensing' requirements:

http://www.qnap.com/pro_detail_feature.asp?p_id=158

The list of supported cameras:

http://www.qnap.com/NVR/CompatibilityX01.html

 

I'll be using a monitor to view and control locally for now so I don't need a nice PC just yet.

Any recommendations on switches for running up to 16 PoE cameras?

Any recommendations on an UPS that'll power all of this for up to 12 hours?

 

My requirements for the cameras are:

All PoE (except for the two PTZ's if necessary)

Can be new or used

 

(x2) PTZ w/at least 20x optical zoom if VGA resolution, vandal proof IP66+ housing, night vision, up to $1250 (might need to be used?). One is for viewing the park about 1/10th mile away as there are possible shady dealings down there at night, and the other is for the top of the house to see wherever I want, including into the shopping center two streets over. Would like to get license plate #'s at the park.

(x1) 5mp @ ~10fps, WDR, true day/night, varifocal lens, vandal proof and IP66+, relatively small form factor (I really like this one: http://www.arecontvision.com/index.php?section=product&subsection=product_details&product_id=10 ) This is to see up the street to get plate #s and because I like my neighbors too, and they appreciate it.

(x1) Covert w/night vision (possible?), resolution or FOV not critical, only has to see faces at about 10 feet in a narrow passageway.

(x1) 2MP @ 15fps, WDR, true day/night, IP65+, 90* FOV

(x1) 1MP @ 25-30fps, WDR, true day night, IP65+, 45* FOV (this one will have a motion activated flood light so night time quality won't matter all the time, but I'd like the option to see 'decently' in the dark)

(x4) VGA resolution, day/night, 75-90* FOV (nothing special, for small interior rooms. I want inexpensive, but not complete junk)

(x6) Vivotek IP8332 seems to fit the bill perfectly for these last 6. I can see why these cameras are so popular, they are, hands down, THE best I've seen in the price range.

 

Any recommendations or advice for the cameras?

 

In addition, I'm keeping the 4-channel cheapo DVR and analog cameras for the attic, crawl space (bugcam), and two more small rooms, for a grand total of 20 cameras.

 

Something I'm unclear about is the compatibility of the cameras' software with the NVR software. Most cameras have functions that are the same or similar to the NVR's features (for example: resolution adjustment, digital zoom, PTZ control, remote monitoring, etc). Is the camera software integrated into the NVR software, completely ignored by the NVR software, or some mess of in-between? I'd think that the NVR software is what will control everything and can ignore the camera software, but then can I use any of the camera's software features separately?

How about the alarm input/outputs on some cameras? Can I control these through the NVR? I'd like to control window/door sensors and motion detectors through the NVR like you can with a typical DVR (just N.O. or N.C. switch inputs and outputs). I don't just want the cameras to record based on sensor triggers, I want sirens/lights to be set off based on sensor triggers. In my DVR I can control all this at once (4 in, 4 out). I guess my question is: Is there an equivalent function on an NVR? Nothing I've been able to find explains this.

 

The QNAP NVR lists "Megapixel recording (up to 8-megapixel)". Does that mean that it will record anything that the camera will put out, up to an 8MP camera? IE: Say you have a theoretical 16 8MP cameras recording to the NVR and they are capable of 60fps @ 8MP, can the NVR take all that in? Obviously that would take up storage at an insane rate, but is that what they mean by "up to 8-megapixel", or... is that 8 megapixels in total divided among all 16 cameras? As in, if you had all of the theoretical 8MP cameras recording at a certain fps, it would only record .5MP each?

 

Can someone explain what an IR cut filter does and what the difference is vs. a day and "night" camera without one? I will have a few IR floods if it makes a difference, I don't like how the bugs are attracted to my cheapo analogs' integrated IR LED's.

 

Phew, thanks for reading.

[Anymouse 0]

Thanks to the mod who moved this. There were too many choices of where to put it so I wasn't sure.

[Campbell 0]

IMPORTANT

 

Before you embark on this endeavour, you appear to want to focus on quite a few areas outside your own home. Check that this is legal first with which ever country/state you live in. Using your camera to see the shopping centre 2 streets over is probably not legal given that you'd probably have views into neighbours yards.

 

Otherwise you might end up forking out for some expensive paperweights!

 

Other things to consider. Your FOV's on your camera are determined by the lens, not the camera.

 

*** more to come ***

[Anymouse 0]

Oh, yes I already looked into the legal side of things. What I want to do is fine as long as I'm not trying to "spy" on people and I'm only in looking into their yards (that's in a nutshell, without going into further detail or getting into all the legal terminology). No audio, though! Not even on my own property!

Thanks for looking out!

 

I forgot to ask about lenses, I meant to ask for recommendations there as well.

[tomcctv 187]

One is for viewing the park about 1/10th mile away as there are possible shady dealings down there at night

 

 

 

Before you embark on this endeavour, you appear to want to focus on quite a few areas outside your own home.

 

Oh, yes I already looked into the legal side of things. What I want to do is fine as long as I'm not trying to "spy" on people and I'm only in looking into their yards

 

 

what state are you in that will allows you to record people in a park area. and collect car information on a shopping centre. alot of states dont allow you to do either.

 

What I want to do is fine as long as I'm not trying to "spy" on people

 

 

i think cameras looking into a park area and monitoring a shopping centre is called spying (without a persons knowledge)

[fa chris 0]

Hi everyone, great website.

 

I, like many others, have had some theft/vandalism problems in my neighborhood and now that some b@stards got us and busted my cars' windows out and rummaged around to find nothing worth value (we're not stupid), I'm done playing around. Immediately after the break-ins I ran out and bought a cheap Chinese 4-channel DVR system and threw it up to hold me over while I researched enough to design and build a decent 'real' security system.

 

I've been searching and reading for nearly the last month straight and have found some invaluable info from this website (thanks!), among others. I feel that I might understand enough now to ask some reasonable questions and ask for some reasonable input on what I've learned and decided on so far.

 

My initial budget was $5k for the surveillance part of it but I quickly figured out that that's not sensible for a decent full IP/NVR setup, so my budget is considerably more flexible now, might just take a camera at a time for a little while after an initial 8. I'll be doing the full install myself.

I must admit, I'm going way overkill, but this is as much of a fun project for me as it is for security (read: cool as all hell ), and there won't be many loopholes to exploit.

 

So, I'd like some input on some cameras and a few other questions if you don't mind...

 

I've decided on a QNAP VS-4016 Pro 16-channel NVR (w/4 2TB HD's in RAID 5) based on its standalone design, versatility, storage capacity, and lack of 'licensing' requirements:

http://www.qnap.com/pro_detail_feature.asp?p_id=158

The list of supported cameras:

http://www.qnap.com/NVR/CompatibilityX01.html

 

I'll be using a monitor to view and control locally for now so I don't need a nice PC just yet.

Any recommendations on switches for running up to 16 PoE cameras?

Any recommendations on an UPS that'll power all of this for up to 12 hours?

 

My requirements for the cameras are:

All PoE (except for the two PTZ's if necessary)

Can be new or used

 

(x2) PTZ w/at least 20x optical zoom if VGA resolution, vandal proof IP66+ housing, night vision, up to $1250 (might need to be used?). One is for viewing the park about 1/10th mile away as there are possible shady dealings down there at night, and the other is for the top of the house to see wherever I want, including into the shopping center two streets over. Would like to get license plate #'s at the park.

(x1) 5mp @ ~10fps, WDR, true day/night, varifocal lens, vandal proof and IP66+, relatively small form factor (I really like this one: http://www.arecontvision.com/index.php?section=product&subsection=product_details&product_id=10 ) This is to see up the street to get plate #s and because I like my neighbors too, and they appreciate it.

(x1) Covert w/night vision (possible?), resolution or FOV not critical, only has to see faces at about 10 feet in a narrow passageway.

(x1) 2MP @ 15fps, WDR, true day/night, IP65+, 90* FOV

(x1) 1MP @ 25-30fps, WDR, true day night, IP65+, 45* FOV (this one will have a motion activated flood light so night time quality won't matter all the time, but I'd like the option to see 'decently' in the dark)

(x4) VGA resolution, day/night, 75-90* FOV (nothing special, for small interior rooms. I want inexpensive, but not complete junk)

(x6) Vivotek IP8332 seems to fit the bill perfectly for these last 6. I can see why these cameras are so popular, they are, hands down, THE best I've seen in the price range.

 

Any recommendations or advice for the cameras?

 

In addition, I'm keeping the 4-channel cheapo DVR and analog cameras for the attic, crawl space (bugcam), and two more small rooms, for a grand total of 20 cameras.

 

Something I'm unclear about is the compatibility of the cameras' software with the NVR software. Most cameras have functions that are the same or similar to the NVR's features (for example: resolution adjustment, digital zoom, PTZ control, remote monitoring, etc). Is the camera software integrated into the NVR software, completely ignored by the NVR software, or some mess of in-between? I'd think that the NVR software is what will control everything and can ignore the camera software, but then can I use any of the camera's software features separately?

How about the alarm input/outputs on some cameras? Can I control these through the NVR? I'd like to control window/door sensors and motion detectors through the NVR like you can with a typical DVR (just N.O. or N.C. switch inputs and outputs). I don't just want the cameras to record based on sensor triggers, I want sirens/lights to be set off based on sensor triggers. In my DVR I can control all this at once (4 in, 4 out). I guess my question is: Is there an equivalent function on an NVR? Nothing I've been able to find explains this.

 

The QNAP NVR lists "Megapixel recording (up to 8-megapixel)". Does that mean that it will record anything that the camera will put out, up to an 8MP camera? IE: Say you have a theoretical 16 8MP cameras recording to the NVR and they are capable of 60fps @ 8MP, can the NVR take all that in? Obviously that would take up storage at an insane rate, but is that what they mean by "up to 8-megapixel", or... is that 8 megapixels in total divided among all 16 cameras? As in, if you had all of the theoretical 8MP cameras recording at a certain fps, it would only record .5MP each?

 

Can someone explain what an IR cut filter does and what the difference is vs. a day and "night" camera without one? I will have a few IR floods if it makes a difference, I don't like how the bugs are attracted to my cheapo analogs' integrated IR LED's.

 

Phew, thanks for reading.

 

Get a 24 port switch to cover cameras, NVR, and any workstations. I've had good luck with cisco, HP, and transition networks... the latter probably being the most reasonably priced.

 

For a UPS, 12 hours seems excessive. We work more towards 15 minutes. Power should come back on pretty quick, if it doesn't then you have other issues to worry about at that point.

 

The inputs/outputs on cameras (a lot of cameras don't seem to have them anymore) varies depending on the NVR software.

 

Double check your laws, surveillence of a mall parking lot and a park without permission and signage could be an invasion of privacy.

 

I'll look through the rest later.

[Anymouse 0]

Thanks for the input guys. I certainly don't want to break any laws (that's what I'm trying to help prevent, afterall). It's worth an even deeper look on my part because I know some of you have a good idea of what you're talking about.

 

I'm in Maryland (US). Here's the code pertaining to video surveillance that I was very loosely paraphrasing in my previous post. It is relatively vague of course, because it's hard to write a different law for every specific situation, but I don't see how I'm breaking any of these (let me know if I'm mistaken)...

 

2010 Maryland Code

CRIMINAL LAW

TITLE 3 - OTHER CRIMES AGAINST THE PERSON

Subtitle 9 - Surveillance and Other Crimes Against Privacy

§ 3-903. Camera surveillance.

 

 

(a) "Camera" defined.- In this section, "camera" includes any electronic device that can be used surreptitiously to observe an individual.

 

(b) Scope of section.- This section does not apply to:

 

(1) an adult resident of the private residence where a camera is placed;

 

(2) a person who places or procures another to place a camera on real property without the intent to conduct deliberate surreptitious observation of an individual inside the private residence;

 

(3) a person who has obtained the consent of an adult resident, or the adult resident's legal guardian, to place a camera on real property to conduct deliberate surreptitious observation of an individual inside the private residence;

 

(4) any otherwise lawful observation with a camera conducted by a law enforcement officer while performing official duties;

 

(5) filming conducted by a person by or for the print or broadcast media through use of a camera that is not secreted from view;

 

(6) any part of a private residence used for business purposes, including any part of a private residence used as a day care home for the care and custody of a child;

 

(7) filming of a private residence by a person through use of a camera that is not located on the real property where the private residence is located; or

 

( any otherwise lawful observation with a camera of the common area of multi-unit family dwellings by a person that holds a license under Title 13 or Title 19 of the Business Occupations and Professions Article, acting within the scope of the person's occupation.

 

© Prohibited.- A person may not place or procure another to place a camera on real property where a private residence is located to conduct deliberate surreptitious observation of an individual inside the private residence.

 

(d) Penalty.- A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor and on conviction is subject to imprisonment not exceeding 1 year or a fine not exceeding $2,500 or both.

 

(e) Prohibited defense.- Subject to subsection (b)(1) of this section, it is not a defense to a prosecution under this section that the defendant owns the private residence.

 

(f) Available defense.- A good faith reliance on a court order is a complete defense to a civil or criminal action brought under this section.

 

(g) Civil action.-

 

(1) An individual who was observed through the use of a camera in violation of this section has a civil cause of action against any person who placed or procured another to place the camera on the real property.

 

(2) In an action under this subsection, the court may award damages and reasonable attorney's fees.

 

(h) Other remedies.- This section does not affect any legal or equitable right or remedy otherwise provided by law.

 

 

[An. Code 1957, art. 27, § 579A; 2002, ch. 26, § 2; 2004, ch. 361.]

 

And here is a definition of surreptitious (just to be thorough), which seems to be the key word in the Maryland code...

 

sur·rep·ti·tious

 

adjective /ˌsərəpˈtiSHəs/ 

 

1. Kept secret, esp. because it would not be approved of

* - they carried on a surreptitious affair

 

 

Web definitions

 

* furtive: marked by quiet and caution and secrecy; taking pains to avoid being observed; "a furtive manner"; "a sneak attack"; "stealthy footsteps"; "a surreptitious glance at his watch"

 

* clandestine: conducted with or marked by hidden aims or methods; "clandestine intelligence operations"; "cloak-and-dagger activities behind enemy lines"; "hole-and-corner intrigue"; "secret missions"; "a secret agent"; "secret sales of arms"; "surreptitious mobilization of troops"; "an ...

 

wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

 

* stealthy, furtive, well hidden, covert (especially movements)

 

en.wiktionary.org/wiki/surreptitious

 

* surreptitiously - in a surreptitious manner; "he was watching her surreptitiously as she waited in the hotel lobby"

 

wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

 

* surreptitiousness - The state or quality of being surreptitious

 

en.wiktionary.org/wiki/surreptitiousness

 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/surreptitious

sur·rep·ti·tious

adj

\ˌsər-əp-ˈti-shəs, ˌsə-rəp-, sə-ˌrep-\

Definition of SURREPTITIOUS

1

: done, made, or acquired by stealth : clandestine

2

: acting or doing something clandestinely : stealthy

— sur·rep·ti·tious·ly adverb

See surreptitious defined for English-language learners »

See surreptitious defined for kids »

Examples of SURREPTITIOUS

 

1. She had a surreptitious relationship with her employee.

2.

3. The letter didn't offer up the jewels, only shadowy suggestions about their disappearance, claiming that [heiress, Carolyn] Skelly, in a surreptitious trading of parcels with “a man in an ankle-length tweed overcoat,” had left a bag full of jewelry on the floor at J.F.K. —Mark Seal, Vanity Fair, December 2001

4. In the early evening as we gathered in the lobby beneath mounted elk heads and bear skins, the lights of the chandelier flickered mysteriously. But the teacher and I both spied the surreptitious action of the desk clerk, whose sheepish smile acknowledged that one brief hotel mystery had been solved. Other signs of pranking there included a “ghost” photo (displayed in a lobby album) that the clerk confided to me was staged, and some pennies, placed on the back of a men's room toilet, that from time to time would secretly become rearranged to form messages—like the word “why?” that I encountered. —Joe Nickell, Skeptical Inquirer, September/October 2000

5. The next week offered [FBI agent] Wiser the opportunity he had been waiting for. Ames was leaving the country, going to Ankara for a weeklong international conference on drugs. Wiser went to Bryant for permission to run a … surreptitious search of Ames' garbage. But the chief was dead set against it. —Tim Weiner et al., Rolling Stone, 29 June 1995

6. [+]more[-]hide

 

Origin of SURREPTITIOUS

Middle English, from Latin surrepticius, from surreptus, past participle of surripere to snatch secretly, from sub- + rapere to seize — more at rapid

First Known Use: 15th century

Related to SURREPTITIOUS

Synonyms: backstairs, behind-the-scenes, clandestine, covert, furtive, hole-and-corner, hugger-mugger, hush-hush, private, privy, sneak, sneaking, sneaky, stealth, stealthy, secret, undercover, underground, underhand, underhanded

Antonyms: open, overt, public

 

I have no intent to be secretive about it, in fact the PTZ planned for the top of the house will stick out like a sore thumb, which I intend. Everywhere that it could see, it can be seen. As for the shopping center, I don't mean that I'm going to try to identify cars or people, just want a general goings-on of the place. I will be able to see into a few backyards, but they're also visible from the streets. I specifically won't look into any of the houses or even 'watch' people in their own backyard.

As for the PTZ for the park, it will also be in plain view mounted onto a large tree I have. I will only pay any attention to it when anyone reports that certain situations look really suspicious, or if I see the same.

The high-rez fixed camera pointed up the other way to the (dead-end) street will be a bit more hidden because it'll be close to the road, but I have permission from most of the neighbors up there to watch their properties, everyone I've talked to is actually thrilled that I am willing to have their houses in view. It'll just have a general view up the street, but it's main purpose is to capture license plates in case anything happens. It would have helped A LOT in a few situations in the past.

I also have purposely visible signs all over my yard proclaiming that I have video surveillance up.

 

If anyone is versed in law, please tell me if I am interpreting this all wrong. If I am, I can omit or modify the plans for those three cameras, but every other cam is focused onto somewhere in my property so there's no question there.

 

Gotta get back to work now. Thanks again for all input.

[tomcctv 187]

what state are you in.

 

 

 

a number of states have now introduced regulations which prohibit the use of a security camera in a "private place" - which means a place where someone may reasonably expect to be safe from any unauthorized surveillance, even if these may be in "public areas": in particular, hidden cameras in locker rooms or restrooms.

 

Keep in mind though that even in those states where there is some minimal regulation regarding the use of security cameras in public places, any breach of these laws usually amounts to a misdemeanor, with a fine.

[Anymouse 0]

I'm in Maryland (US).

 

The "private place" restroom/locker room thing is spelled out in another section of the code, but that part doesn't apply to my situation.

[Campbell 0]

That only specifies private residences. That makes no mention of public places which is what your camera would be focused on.

 

In fact, given that the section you quote explicitly makes no reference to surveillance of a public place means that other laws apply to your cameras (I think) I'm willing to bet that your cameras on the shopping centre and the park are in fact illegal.

 

**EDIT**

 

Talk to a civil liberties group or a lawyer, they know about these things more than anyone else.

[skane 0]

I have no intent to be secretive about it, in fact the PTZ planned for the top of the house will stick out like a sore thumb, which I intend. Everywhere that it could see, it can be seen. As for the shopping center, I don't mean that I'm going to try to identify cars or people, just want a general goings-on of the place. I will be able to see into a few backyards, but they're also visible from the streets. I specifically won't look into any of the houses or even 'watch' people in their own backyard.

As for the PTZ for the park, it will also be in plain view mounted onto a large tree I have. I will only pay any attention to it when anyone reports that certain situations look really suspicious, or if I see the same.

The high-rez fixed camera pointed up the other way to the (dead-end) street will be a bit more hidden because it'll be close to the road, but I have permission from most of the neighbors up there to watch their properties, everyone I've talked to is actually thrilled that I am willing to have their houses in view. It'll just have a general view up the street, but it's main purpose is to capture license plates in case anything happens. It would have helped A LOT in a few situations in the past.

I also have purposely visible signs all over my yard proclaiming that I have video surveillance up.

 

If anyone is versed in law, please tell me if I am interpreting this all wrong. If I am, I can omit or modify the plans for those three cameras, but every other cam is focused onto somewhere in my property so there's no question there.

 

Gotta get back to work now. Thanks again for all input.

 

I think you're on the right track. Don't cover areas that are not visible from a public place. Check your local and state codes and consult a lawyer if necessary. The issue you're more likely to have is people knocking on your door asking you for footage every time a crime is committed in the area.

[Anymouse 0]

That only specifies private residences. That makes no mention of public places which is what your camera would be focused on.

 

In fact, given that the section you quote explicitly makes no reference to surveillance of a public place means that other laws apply to your cameras (I think) I'm willing to bet that your cameras on the shopping centre and the park are in fact illegal.

 

**EDIT**

 

Talk to a civil liberties group or a lawyer, they know about these things more than anyone else.

Thanks for the advice. I have been intending to ask a lawyer about this, but haven't yet for a few reasons. I will relatively soon.

 

Here's another (different) section of the code that may apply.

(I only took the applicable statements from this one, the rest can be found in the link provided)

(b) Scope of section.- This section does not apply to a person who without prurient intent:

(2) conducts or procures another to conduct visual surveillance of an individual to protect property or public safety or prevent crime

http://law.justia.com/codes/maryland/2010/criminal-law/title-3/subtitle-9/3-902/

 

 

While I appreciate everyone looking out for me and I do want this info to be here so that it may help others, I hope this topic doesn't totally destroy my original intent of the thread. :/

[Anymouse 0]

Get a 24 port switch to cover cameras, NVR, and any workstations. I've had good luck with cisco, HP, and transition networks... the latter probably being the most reasonably priced.

 

For a UPS, 12 hours seems excessive. We work more towards 15 minutes. Power should come back on pretty quick, if it doesn't then you have other issues to worry about at that point.

 

The inputs/outputs on cameras (a lot of cameras don't seem to have them anymore) varies depending on the NVR software.

 

I'll look through the rest later.

Thanks for the info.

 

A 24 port switch sounds good. Some of those are pricey! I don't think I need the features of the really expensive ones. How's this?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833122177

It lists "PoE Budget: 195W". I'm guessing that means that it distributes any power to any port up to 195W? If that's the way it works then I could have 12W per camera available (16 cams), or 10W if i wanted to have some left over. At any rate, this seems to be more than adequate for most of the cameras I've looked at. (Edit: Then again, that can't be 100% correct because a single Cat5 couldn't handle the amperage if it were to put full power through 1 port. Clarification?)

 

12 hours backup isn't required, but we have lost power for a few days before, and a few times for several hours. It's for those 'several hour' times that I'd like to have uninterrupted service. It's not necessary, though. Once I get a pretty solid estimated power consumption figure for the whole system, I'll be able to tell if I can even reasonably do that. Probably not, heh. 15 minutes would give me a good buffer for the few-second-long power drops we have, though. At least that much is necessary.

 

I apologize for asking so much in one post. I might break it down into a few specific threads later on.