Is it legal?

[jokerone 0]

I have had car break-ins on my street (a dead end street) over the last few years. I have a few cameras on aimed on my front porch, driveway, and side of the house.

 

I’m planning on aiming a camera on the street to catch the license plate of any car driving down the street. The last thief parked on the street and broke into my car. The idea is that if I or the neighbors have a break-in I can give the cops a copy of every license plate coming down the road that night and provided the car is not stolen, they can quickly determine who lives on the street and who does not and start their investigation from there.

 

Its my understanding that a person has no expectation of privacy on a public road, but the question is this, is it legal to record the license plates of cars on a public road? Please let me know if you know for sure and what statute you are quoting, not just your opinion if you think it is/should be legal. I live in Illinois which has some very stupid laws on such matters. That’s my opinion, but I was never consulted when the statute was written.

 

 

Thanks in advance.

[Numb-nuts 1]

I would imagine your local police might be the best place to get free legal advice on that because they will know what ethey can and can't use. You haven't even says where you live, as the law is going to be different in different countries, different states etc. I think you may be on the right track that there is no expectation of privacy in a public place.

There are other human rights legislations also that you might fall foul of so don't forget to consider that.

 

I would think that if you can show you were monitoring the public area and not a particular person in public, then you might have a reasonable expectation of not breaching a person's human rights but if for example that area is a children's play area where parents and children are you, might find you have to justify that.

 

Those are just my thoughts but I am no legal eagle.

[CCTV_Tech 0]

There is no law that specifically allows it, nor does there really need to be.

 

You can stand all day long on the sidewalk with a camcorder and record every car going by all day long, or sit there on a lawnchair with a clipboard and write down tag numbers all day. Car tags are meant to be read, that's why the letters are 3" tall.

 

The other privacy law, of course is that of your home, where the footage is stored. As long as you are not recording anything illegal, such as spying on your neighbors, the law protects you from having to show that video to anyone without a search warrant.

 

The only area where you might run afoul of the law would be if you have a database of tag numbers, and you know who owns what tag, and you shared that with somebody other than law enforcement.

[jokerone 0]

Since posting I found this, which seems to answer my question.

 

As recognized by the Supreme Court in United States vs. Knotts 368 U.S. 276, 281-82 (1983):

 

A person traveling in an automobile on public thoroughfares has no reasonable expectation of privacy in his movements from one place to another. When [an individual] traveled over the public streets he voluntarily conveyed to anyone who wanted to look the fact that he was traveling over particular roads in a particular direction, and the fact of his final destination when he exited from public roads onto private property.13

 

http://www.library.ca.gov/crb/97/05/

[jokerone 0]

I would imagine your local police might be the best place to get free legal advice on that because they will know what ethey can and can't use. You haven't even says where you live, as the law is going to be different in different countries, different states etc. I think you may be on the right track that there is no expectation of privacy in a public place.

There are other human rights legislations also that you might fall foul of so don't forget to consider that.

 

I would think that if you can show you were monitoring the public area and not a particular person in public, then you might have a reasonable expectation of not breaching a person's human rights but if for example that area is a children's play area where parents and children are you, might find you have to justify that.

 

Those are just my thoughts but I am no legal eagle.

 

 

thanks. I did say I lived in Illinois, which has some really stupid laws on this topic, but it appears the supreme court ruled in my favor (see post above).

 

Also its been my experience that the police are not legal experts, despite what they wish you to believe. They may or may not be correct, and I don’t want to spend $50K in court defending my position. I’ve had police tell me something is illegal when I clearly know it was legal.

 

Anyway, that’s for the help. So far I’m having fun with these cameras. I’ve found out that the neighbor’s cat has a 3am schedule of walking by my porch and ticking my dog off. Also, the raccoons know what day garbage day is. Which is what prompted the cameras in the first place. The dog would bark at deer, raccoons, opossums, stray cats, joggers, etc. but not at the burglar breaking into my car.

(the dog has his priorities I guess. )

By the time I wake up to look outside to see what it was he was barking at, I’m wide awake and can’t get back to sleep. Now, I can just roll over in bed , turn the monitor on and see what’s up, then yell at the dog to shut up.

 

thanks.

Edited December 2, 2011 by Guest

[jokerone 0]

There is no law that specifically allows it, nor does there really need to be.

 

You can stand all day long on the sidewalk with a camcorder and record every car going by all day long, or sit there on a lawnchair with a clipboard and write down tag numbers all day. Car tags are meant to be read, that's why the letters are 3" tall.

 

The other privacy law, of course is that of your home, where the footage is stored. As long as you are not recording anything illegal, such as spying on your neighbors, the law protects you from having to show that video to anyone without a search warrant.

 

The only area where you might run afoul of the law would be if you have a database of tag numbers, and you know who owns what tag, and you shared that with somebody other than law enforcement.

 

Nope. I think I'm good. part of one camera catches part of the neighbor's front yard, but that can't be helped. Also, I don't plan on doing anything with the video, even viewing it, unless myself or the neighbors report a car break-in burglary, etc.

 

 

thanks.

[Soundy 1]

Since posting I found this, which seems to answer my question.

 

As recognized by the Supreme Court in United States vs. Knotts 368 U.S. 276, 281-82 (1983):

 

A person traveling in an automobile on public thoroughfares has no reasonable expectation of privacy in his movements from one place to another. When [an individual] traveled over the public streets he voluntarily conveyed to anyone who wanted to look the fact that he was traveling over particular roads in a particular direction, and the fact of his final destination when he exited from public roads onto private property.13

 

http://www.library.ca.gov/crb/97/05/

Legally speaking, recording the presence of a car, ONLY proves the presence of that car... not of its owner or any passengers (unless they stop and get out).

 

Here in BC, a speeding ticket (among other moving violations) typically results in two penalties: a fine, and penalty points applied to the driver's license (which may result in further penalties applied later to that person's insurance). However, when we had photo radar, a photo speeding ticket included only the fine, applied to the registered owner of the car. Because the driver's identity could not be proven, points were not assigned. IF, however, the owner chose to nominate someone else as the driver, that person's license COULD then be assigned points (pending burden of proof, of course).

[jokerone 0]

Since posting I found this, which seems to answer my question.

 

As recognized by the Supreme Court in United States vs. Knotts 368 U.S. 276, 281-82 (1983):

 

A person traveling in an automobile on public thoroughfares has no reasonable expectation of privacy in his movements from one place to another. When [an individual] traveled over the public streets he voluntarily conveyed to anyone who wanted to look the fact that he was traveling over particular roads in a particular direction, and the fact of his final destination when he exited from public roads onto private property.13

 

http://www.library.ca.gov/crb/97/05/

Legally speaking, recording the presence of a car, ONLY proves the presence of that car... not of its owner or any passengers (unless they stop and get out).

 

Here in BC, a speeding ticket (among other moving violations) typically results in two penalties: a fine, and penalty points applied to the driver's license (which may result in further penalties applied later to that person's insurance). However, when we had photo radar, a photo speeding ticket included only the fine, applied to the registered owner of the car. Because the driver's identity could not be proven, points were not assigned. IF, however, the owner chose to nominate someone else as the driver, that person's license COULD then be assigned points (pending burden of proof, of course).

 

True, I had this issue when I lived in Germany. I got a speeding ticket there, and it use to be they would send a photo of you driving but that was halted when a member of parliament was sent a photo of him and his wife opened the letter to find the photo of both him and

his girlfriend in the passenger seat.

 

So at least in 1992 they sent only the driver’s photo.

My goal is to provide the police with a starting point. If all I can do is give them a fuzzy image a human breaking into my car, that’s not much to go on. Before buying the camera system I reviewed a lot of surveillance videos on youtube and what I discovered was for example, was that I could tell it was a teenage black male breaking into someone’s garage, but I couldn’t pick him out of a line-up. The only cameras I could do that with were the HD cameras that cost about $800. Not an option.

 

However If I can give the police a video of all 14 cars with plates that traveled down the road that night, then they can determine that 13 were legit, and one is owned by someone who lives two towns over, has a criminal record, and has stolen goods in his possession. Perhaps my video would be enough to have a judge grant a search warrant. After I give the police the video, the ball is in their court.

 

Without the plate number, even a video of a face isn’t worth crap without a name, unless someone recognizes them. So unless the car is stolen, then I’m hoping it will help.

 

thanks.

[myplace46 0]

At the risk of showing my ignorance... I sure would like to know what set up you're using to capture plate numbers that are legible.

All I can get is a blur.

Thanks,

John

[jokerone 0]

At the risk of showing my ignorance... I sure would like to know what set up you're using to capture plate numbers that are legible.

All I can get is a blur.

Thanks,

John

 

Well, I haven't yet.

 

However if it works, I'll post it here.

[tomcctv 187]

However If I can give the police a video of all 14 cars with plates that traveled down the road that night, then they can determine that 13 were legit, and one is owned by someone who lives two towns over, has a criminal record, and has stolen goods in his possession. Perhaps my video would be enough to have a judge grant a search warrant. After I give the police the video, the ball is in their court.

 

 

 

 

thats a big problem how would the police know 13 were legit ???? dont think a judge will pass a warrant.

 

 

Since posting I found this, which seems to answer my question.

 

As recognized by the Supreme Court in United States

 

 

this is 20 years old ..... even all the stuff about uk is 30 years old. lots have changed since then

[Soundy 1]

However If I can give the police a video of all 14 cars with plates that traveled down the road that night, then they can determine that 13 were legit, and one is owned by someone who lives two towns over, has a criminal record, and has stolen goods in his possession. Perhaps my video would be enough to have a judge grant a search warrant. After I give the police the video, the ball is in their court.

 

Without the plate number, even a video of a face isn’t worth crap without a name, unless someone recognizes them. So unless the car is stolen, then I’m hoping it will help.

 

thanks.

Chances are, if the plate belongs to a known "problem" person, then the plate and car themselves will also be well-known to police. I've reported suspicious vehicles before and based solely on the description over the phone, they often say they know who I'm referring to.

[jokerone 0]

However If I can give the police a video of all 14 cars with plates that traveled down the road that night, then they can determine that 13 were legit, and one is owned by someone who lives two towns over, has a criminal record, and has stolen goods in his possession. Perhaps my video would be enough to have a judge grant a search warrant. After I give the police the video, the ball is in their court.

 

Without the plate number, even a video of a face isn’t worth crap without a name, unless someone recognizes them. So unless the car is stolen, then I’m hoping it will help.

 

thanks.

Chances are, if the plate belongs to a known "problem" person, then the plate and car themselves will also be well-known to police. I've reported suspicious vehicles before and based solely on the description over the phone, they often say they know who I'm referring to.

 

 

I think you are right. this isn't that large a town. The inccident that happened that prompted me buying this system the crook had a car with a bad muffler. He actually woke me up coming and going, but I didn't get out of bed to look.

[ssnapier 0]

Well, carrying this premise forward what would stop you from mounting cameras and illumination on your mailbox? If the idea is to catch plate numbers, that is just about the only way to get low enough and close enough. Either that or you will need a pretty big zoom to get them from your house. At is VERY tough to catch a number plate at night, good luck!

[dvarapala 0]

At the risk of showing my ignorance... I sure would like to know what set up you're using to capture plate numbers that are legible.

All I can get is a blur.

 

Not to hijack this thread, but to get license plates, you need at least 2 things:

 

1) A short exposure time/high shutter speed, on the order of 1/1000th of a second, and

2) Lots of light (follows naturally from 1) - especially at night

 

A progressive-scan image sensor (as opposed to interlaced) helps tremendously.

 

If you want to know more, search this forum for "license plate" and/or start a new discussion thread.

[dvarapala 0]

The idea is that if I or the neighbors have a break-in I can give the cops a copy of every license plate coming down the road that night and provided the car is not stolen, they can quickly determine who lives on the street and who does not and start their investigation from there.

 

Its my understanding that a person has no expectation of privacy on a public road, but the question is this, is it legal to record the license plates of cars on a public road?

 

One tactic you might consider is to just give the cops a list of license plates that you "observed" without going into the details of how you observed them. While it's absolutely legal to record the plates of every vehicle that passes by, you don't necessarily want the fact that you're doing so to become public knowledge; people often have a strong negative reaction to such things.

[jokerone 0]

The idea is that if I or the neighbors have a break-in I can give the cops a copy of every license plate coming down the road that night and provided the car is not stolen, they can quickly determine who lives on the street and who does not and start their investigation from there.

 

Its my understanding that a person has no expectation of privacy on a public road, but the question is this, is it legal to record the license plates of cars on a public road?

 

One tactic you might consider is to just give the cops a list of license plates that you "observed" without going into the details of how you observed them. While it's absolutely legal to record the plates of every vehicle that passes by, you don't necessarily want the fact that you're doing so to become public knowledge; people often have a strong negative reaction to such things.

 

agreed.

[Numb-nuts 1]

 

 

I think you are right. this isn't that large a town. The inccident that happened that prompted me buying this system the crook had a car with a bad muffler. He actually woke me up coming and going, but I didn't get out of bed to look.

You should nominate that crook for the Americas Dumbest Criminals show.

[jokerone 0]

 

 

I think you are right. this isn't that large a town. The inccident that happened that prompted me buying this system the crook had a car with a bad muffler. He actually woke me up coming and going, but I didn't get out of bed to look.

You should nominate that crook for the Americas Dumbest Criminals show.

 

yeah, turned out it was somebody who was 21 and his friend who was 17. he pulled off my fuse panel. When I first found it I thought someone was trying to hot-wire the car, but it turns out he was trying to find the trunk release. He didn't see the button with the photo of an open trunk. I guess he forgot his flashlight.

 

luckly for me all he got were a few wires like an MP3 mini jack wire and a USB charger.

 

they had been hitting the neighborhoods in the area for a few months and one of my neighbors came home from a midnight shift and saw the car driving around and got the plate number and that led to the arrest.

 

when I told the sheriff about the loud muffer, he said that was why they were stealing because they were too stupid to have a normal job..

[myplace46 0]

At the risk of showing my ignorance... I sure would like to know what set up you're using to capture plate numbers that are legible.

All I can get is a blur.

 

Not to hijack this thread, but to get license plates, you need at least 2 things:

 

1) A short exposure time/high shutter speed, on the order of 1/1000th of a second, and

2) Lots of light (follows naturally from 1) - especially at night

 

A progressive-scan image sensor (as opposed to interlaced) helps tremendously.

 

If you want to know more, search this forum for "license plate" and/or start a new discussion thread.

 

 

Thanks for the reply, I sure appreciate it.