Help with design of brand new system.

[chesterfield 0]

Hi, Ive just signed up after spending what seems like an eternity researching cctv and am looking for the input of people on this forum who seem to have far more knowledge than myself. My head is now spinning with all the countless options and systems Ive seen discussed.

 

Im in the UK and Im wanting to install a system for my home.

Given the size of the property and planned extension, I believe a 16 camera system would be appropriate.

I do not have any current system installed so I believe that "future proofing" and heading straight for an IP based system would be most appropriate.

I have worked with IT for several years, so am not afraid of getting my hands dirty building a pc based NVR.

 

I have looked at standalone systems from QNAP, which look fairly familiar as Ive been using one of their NAS solutions for media storage for some time. However the flexibility and future upgrade ability of a pc based system appeals to me.

 

If I list my requirements it may help those with more knowledge than I offer their opinions on which recorder and camera route to go.

 

From the recorder:

Remote accessibility (web, Iphone, Android phone)

email and sms alerts on alarms (I would like the ability to schedule when alarms should be sent, i.e. I dont want alerting to movement when Im at home)

ideally be able to handle 1080p cameras, though there will probably only be one or two of these in the whole system.

be able to permanently record at a set framerate, say 5 fps but when movement is detected, up the frame rate to realtime (25-30fps).

able to control any PTZ cameras remotely.

ideally ftp/email images of the detected movement to ensure some images are retained should any theives remove the CCTV box.

 

 

From the cameras:

good low light evel performance. We do not have a large ammount of external lighting, though we do have floodlights which activate in some areas, and are looking to expand the outdoor lighting. The rear of the property would still remain fairly dark with minimal lighting until the extension is built, so nightvision would be preferred for some cameras.

 

Ideally 720p minimum camera resolution.

I would like to have at least one PTZ to cover the front of the property, maybe with the ability to track motion (vehicles or people entering the property).

 

 

I have read a lot of good opinions of Avigilon solutions and it seems that if I want to aim for a high end domestic solution, their software would not be a bad place to start.

 

As for budget, Im not wanting to spend casino money on installing the system, but I'm also not under any illusion that the system will be fairly expensive. Considering the value of assets & vehicles in the home and garages that are being protected / having theives detered from, I would rather spend more on a good system that would actually be useful to police in the event of a break in.

 

 

Thanks in advance for any opinions/help provided.

[tomcctv 187]

Hi. chesterfield. 16 mp cameras may be a bit much for home use. if you have the budget but you dont need to go to that extent.

 

hybrid units are ideal for home protection having a mix of IP and analog. also with using MP ip you may not need as many cameras as you think.

 

 

can you post a layout of the area you want to protect ??

 

be able to permanently record at a set framerate, say 5 fps but when movement is detected, up the frame rate to realtime (25-30fps).

 

this is known as smart record fps stays the same but quality changes (which saves HD space) but make shure it has a good pre and post.

[chesterfield 0]

Yes I think 16mp cameras may be a bit excessive.

 

I have put together this quick diagram of what the layout will look like once the extension is finished, and I would like to put some cameras indoors, particularly areas containing high value items - garage, cinema, living room and gym. I may also like discreet/hidden cameras in the nursery. Given the number of cameras indoors, Im assuming maybe a solution capable of supporting upto 16 cameras would cover it.

 

Also in the digram below Ive forgotten about the floodlights to the rear, which activate once a person is within say 20 ft of the house. There are small external buildings to the northeast and south of the property which I would like covering too.

 

hope this helps:

 

[blake 0]

Hey Tom what is the viewing size difference from a ip cam to analog?I thought lets say a 2.8mm lense is just that no matter what the camera?

[ssmith10pn 0]

Hey Tom what is the viewing size difference from a ip cam to analog?I thought lets say a 2.8mm lense is just that no matter what the camera?

 

Viewing size is the same. Pixel density is the difference.

[chesterfield 0]

Trying to find pricing information on the Avigilon software is not easy Ive discovered. The fact that pricing is not readily available for this, seems to suggest that while Avigilon may be very good equipment/software the end consumer is being bent over and shafted in terms of price by Avigilon and the resellers. No offence to any resellers.

 

While I dont mind spending several £K on a security system, and as a business owner I understand that profits have to be made, Im not into all this cloak and dagger behaviour over pricing of the Avigilon kit/software.

 

What other software (or stand alone systems) would others reccomend for up to 16 cameras? (though I doubt I'd be starting with 16)

[thewireguys 3]

Trying to find pricing information on the Avigilon software is not easy Ive discovered. The fact that pricing is not readily available for this, seems to suggest that while Avigilon may be very good equipment/software the end consumer is being bent over and shafted in terms of price by Avigilon and the resellers. No offence to any resellers.

 

As a Avigilon Partner I totally disagree. Avigilon doesn't ** themselves out to like most other manufactures they want there product to be installed by professionals that know how to design, install and support the product. You will not find online sales of Avigilon equipment and you will have a hard time finding bad reviews on the product or support because it is that good.

 

I recommend you look for your local Avigilon partner and request a demo.

 

end consumer is being bent over and shafted

 

When you compare a Avigilon solution against other VMS solutions Avigilon is 99% of the time cheaper then the others.

 

If I was located in the UK I would help you out. If you want more info please PM me.

[chesterfield 0]

Id just like costs tbh. But they are not made available. The fact that they aren't made available by "partners" either also suggests that there is either massive margin in the products and partners dont want to reveal their pricing to the competition for fear of being undercut, or they dont want to put consumers off with ridiculously high pricing imposed upon them by Avigilon.

 

I was quite prepared for maybe up to a few hundred or even £1000 pounds for a decent sooftware solution, but the information I have found suggests that the MSRP for the software license for a 16 camera solution is around $4,600 which is almost £3000, and given that we usually pay well above US MRSP for most US goods in the UK, Ill bet its closer to £3500. Add VAT (our purchase tax iff you will) and that comes in at £4200, or around $6700 US.

 

So counting Avigilon out due to being vastly overpriced, what other software / stand alone solutions would people recommend?

[thewireguys 3]

Id just like costs tbh. But they are not made available. The fact that they aren't made available by "partners" either also suggests that there is either massive margin in the products and partners dont want to reveal their pricing to the competition for fear of being undercut, or they dont want to put consumers off with ridiculously high pricing imposed upon them by Avigilon.

 

I was quite prepared for maybe up to a few hundred or even £1000 pounds for a decent sooftware solution, but the information I have found suggests that the MSRP for the software license for a 16 camera solution is around $4,600 which is almost £3000, and given that we usually pay well above US MRSP for most US goods in the UK, Ill bet its closer to £3500. Add VAT (our purchase tax iff you will) and that comes in at £4200, or around $6700 US.

 

So counting Avigilon out due to being vastly overpriced, what other software / stand alone solutions would people recommend?

 

As parters we are not aloud to post pricing. But I can tell you the pricing you posted is way off. Also keep in mind is not marketed for the residential market.

[chesterfield 0]

Marketed for the residential market or not makes no difference to its value for money. It seems there is a lot more to do with marketing here than its actual value for money. Its a software solution for management of IP cameras. Its an advanced solution granted, but its not worth the money they are charging imho.

 

Here are the MRSP prices Ive found:

 

 

So my figures dont appear to be way off, unless the "partners" site I found this on was lying.

 

The fact people arent allowed to post prices for the Avigilon stuff speaks volumes itself about just how they feel (know) the prices will be reacted to unless accompanied by a professional sales agent whos job it is to convince a company that it's worth the money.

 

I can find prices for competitors solutions, and they seem to be a lot more realistic imho. There also seems to be a lot of "partners" now raving about Avigilon kit over everything else all of a sudden too. Call me a cynic, but that doesnt surprise me when its for a product that has very secretive pricing. I bet my assumption on the large margins for resellers and Avigilon are not way off the mark at all.

 

As before, Im just after some advice/suggestions on software or stand alone solutions for a high end domestic/business grade solution for my home. My initial thoughts were that the Avigilon stuff sounded quite good from the reviews, but having seen the pricing for this kit Ive decided that the pricing is a joke, so am after other suggestions now. Both for the recording solution and the cameras.

[thewireguys 3]

The prices that your look at are the old enterprise level prices. Avigilon now has 2 lower cost VMS offerings which are geared for smaller systems for much less money.

 

Before you make assumptions about a product please contact a partner for a demo and to get full understanding of the product.

 

I also agree with Tom I would recommend a hybrid system.

 

FYI that is a confidential document.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Guest

[tomcctv 187]

Hi for avigilon uk you will need to start your budget at £8k for 16 cameras. avigilon is not over priced its that saying.... you get what you pay for not only in products but also support.

 

 

 

but like i said hybrid is best suited to your needs. MP cameras and analog

[chesterfield 0]

Id rather make use of the existing wiring of cat5e to several areas of the home, which is why I started looking at an IP system from the off. I dont really want to go down the route of installing analogue and then upgrading those to IP at a later date and making either a card or encoder redundant in the process.

 

Id rather spend more up front and at least have the wiring and hardawre in place that can accept better cameras/software at a later date if I want.

 

Quite why Avigilon are so secretive about their pricing is quite a mystery. Well, other than th fact they work off the premis that their resellers canoffer X off the MSRP. I can just imagine the resellers out on site making "calls to the boss" back in the office and negotiating a special deal, but only if the customer buys today.

 

So Avigilon is not overpriced, but I'd have to start at the equivalent of $13,000 for a 16 camera setup - and if thats not including VAT in the UK then it would be $15,600. Whereas Ive just been told that at $4,600 its an old price.

 

Sorry, thats not "getting what you pay for at all". Its overpriced, plain and simple. I've now come to the conclusion that given the pricing secrecy and resellers doing ther best to promote this at the top of their list, the margins are massive, which in todays climate I cant blame businesses for pushing, but as a consumer Ill pass.

 

Im also noting that after asking a few times now, there are no other products put forward by resellers, so I assume the margins are that great in the Avigilon kit they have convinced resellers to push that at all costs at the expense of any other manufacturer.

 

So, Im happy to leave Avigilon out of the picture for now, what other software / stand alone solutions would be recommended for the type of system Im wanting to build?

 

FYI that is a confidential document.

 

Then Avigilon need to take it up with google and the reseller thats posted it.

[thewireguys 3]

With all do respect you don't know what your talking about. Your assumptions are incorrect and your pissed of because you can't shop prices on the web.

 

Here is a list of other manufactures. Keep in mind their is a lot more to (most) IP solutions then just plugging them into a switch.

 

Milestone

Onssi

Exacq

Avermedia

Geovision

Axis

Vivotek

Acti

Mobotix

Stardot

Basler

Sony

[Soundy 1]

Just FYI, Avigilon is far from the only CCTV vendor that doesn't post consumer pricing, and for which pricing is hard to find. The same applies to the upper level of any area of technology, whether you're talking CCTV, home theater... even cars. If you want to buy a Kia, you'll find people throwing pricing and deals in your face... if you want a Ferrari, you'll have to do a little digging and you'll find a limited number of dealers.

 

It's also not uncommon for some manufacturers to sell only through integrators, who can properly design, spec, and install a complete system to take full advantage of their equipment. People who don't know what they're doing, running out and buying expensive gear, slapping it together in some half-assed manner, and then blaming the gear all over the internet when it has problems or doesn't perform as expected, is far too common in MANY fields, especially this one (not saying you're one of them). It's not a conspiracy to gouge, it's just a different way to do business.

 

This really is an industry where you get what you pay for.

[tomcctv 187]

Id rather make use of the existing wiring of cat5e to several areas of the home, which is why I started looking at an IP system from the off.

 

 

 

hi you can use cat5 with any system. the reason why i say a hybrid were as a home does not need the full extent of mp ip. like you dont need to spend the extra to view a door way but your front and back yards will stand good 3mp cameras. but it all depends on your budget.

 

 

a hybrid will allow you to use most IP with no licence costs upto a total of 45mp and standard cameras

[chesterfield 0]

With all due respect I do have a little knowledge of what Im talking about. Yes Im annoyed I can't find prices on the web, as it will now do doubt eat into my working day making phone calls to resellers to be fobbed off with phony discounts off the MRSP.

 

I have also (as stated) spent several years in IT prior to my now runing my own company. Ive built business networks, complete with enterprise sized email solutions,including the set-up of the software. Ive also played around with basic IP camera solutions such as the one that comes with my NAS (qnap), so Im well aware its not plug and play. I know full well that if I buy the kit and it doesn't do what I want, then the problem will reside between the keyboard and the seat. I will then have to begrudgingly pay for someone else to fix it, but Ill watch them do it and learn for next time myself.

 

In response to Soundy, I agree, prices are sometimes difficult to find for top end home theatre stuff too, but I did find it and I did build it.

 

Oh and for your information.. when I wanted a Ferrari, I didnt have to do a lot of digging. I was in another country at the time, browsing the internet. The price was right there online. I paid them a visit when I got back, looked the car over and wrote a cheque there and then. That car and the ones that have since come to accompany it is one of the reasons I want the 1080p camera in the garage.

 

I also have a very good friend that is an owner of a large manufacturer of cameras & housings of security equipment in the UK, they also supply to retailers and not general public, so I also have a bit of an understanding of pricing in the market too. If you really think there isnt a HUGE margin in these devices then you are quite blinkered. Im prepared to pay what I feel is an acceptable ammount, and the prices of many manufacturers Ive found are fairly reasonable. Some however do seem to be pusing their luck on pricing though.

[ak357 0]

With all do respect you don't know what your talking about. Your assumptions are incorrect and your pissed of because you can't shop prices on the web.

 

Mike He is happy

his words

"I'm happy to leave Avigilon out of the picture for now"

 

now make yourself happy

leave him alone

are u bored

looking for headache

[chesterfield 0]

Id rather make use of the existing wiring of cat5e to several areas of the home, which is why I started looking at an IP system from the off.

 

 

 

hi you can use cat5 with any system. the reason why i say a hybrid were as a home does not need the full extent of mp ip. like you dont need to spend the extra to view a door way but your front and back yards will stand good 3mp cameras. but it all depends on your budget.

 

 

a hybrid will allow you to use most IP with no licence costs upto a total of 45mp and standard cameras

 

 

Thanks tom (assume thats your name)

 

I hadn't considered the use of the hybrid so as to use lower importance areas on analogue. I suppose I can upgrade the ip part of a hybrod system to use more cameras if necessary?

 

the 45mp limit you speak of on a hybrid system, is that total MP? i.e. could I theoretically have 45 x 1mp cameras? If so, then 8 x 3mp cameras and a few low res ones would be fine..

 

Unfortunately the areas where I would use a low res camera have no cable to

 

Here is another thought, how well would ip cameras work over homeplugs? I have power outlets right down near where the gates will be constructed, I could have a low res ip camera down there, connected to a homeplug, instead of running a cat5 cable all the way back to the house. Would that work?

 

I guess the best way would be to get a camera, and start trying it out with various pieces of software/hardware and see how I get on?

 

 

Yes thanks ak357. Im happy to leave Avigilon out for now given my thoughts on their pricing. Im happy to hear about other sugestions as per toms.

[chesterfield 0]

Here is a list of other manufactures. Keep in mind their is a lot more to (most) IP solutions then just plugging them into a switch.

 

Milestone

Onssi

Exacq

Avermedia

Geovision

Axis

Vivotek

Acti

Mobotix

Stardot

Basler

Sony

 

Thanks for the in depth opinion on the other manufacturers.

 

Ive played with the geovision software, and found it a little clunky if Im honest. I have read bits about milestone, exacq and vivotek and would like to see demos or have other peopls input on whether these systems would be appropriate. Do you have any opinoins on these three?

[Soundy 1]

I hadn't considered the use of the hybrid so as to use lower importance areas on analogue. I suppose I can upgrade the ip part of a hybrod system to use more cameras if necessary?

 

the 45mp limit you speak of on a hybrid system, is that total MP? i.e. could I theoretically have 45 x 1mp cameras? If so, then 8 x 3mp cameras and a few low res ones would be fine..

ALL of that depends on the system you use. Some simply limit the number of cameras, some limit the highest resolution, some both... some may limit the total bandwidth (so you could have 10 cameras at low compression or 15 at higher compression)...

 

Some hybrids will allow a certain total number of channels, with any mix of analog/IP you choose... some will give you "X" number of analog channels and "Y" number of IP and they're not interchangeable... and so on. There are so many options and variations it's not funny.

 

Another option is to go with a straight NVR and use analog cameras with IP encoders...

 

Here is another thought, how well would ip cameras work over homeplugs? I have power outlets right down near where the gates will be constructed, I could have a low res ip camera down there, connected to a homeplug, instead of running a cat5 cable all the way back to the house. Would that work?

It will... with a caveat: if the two modules are on separate legs of the phase (or worse, on separate phases), your speed will be severely reduced, and may not be enough for megapixel. Speed can also be affected by noise on the circuit, such as may be caused by heavy equipment or motors starting up.

[thewireguys 3]

Here is a list of other manufactures. Keep in mind their is a lot more to (most) IP solutions then just plugging them into a switch.

 

Milestone

Onssi

Exacq

Avermedia

Geovision

Axis

Vivotek

Acti

Mobotix

Stardot

Basler

Sony

 

Thanks for the in depth opinion on the other manufacturers.

 

Ive played with the geovision software, and found it a little clunky if Im honest. I have read bits about milestone, exacq and vivotek and would like to see demos or have other peopls input on whether these systems would be appropriate. Do you have any opinoins on these three?

 

I also sell Milestone and Exacq but after our first Avigilon install we haven't looked back. I got tired of having to upgrade firmware to get cameras to connect and having to call at least two different company's for support with each of them saying it's the others issue. I also didn't like the fact customers have to pay yearly upgrade fees and I hated waiting for Monday for support. I didn't like the fact end users would get screwed by unauthorized dealers who sold their products and had know clue what they where doing and cost the customer lots of extra money.

 

But you can get all their prices anywhere on the web.

[chesterfield 0]

Some hybrids will allow a certain total number of channels, with any mix of analog/IP you choose... some will give you "X" number of analog channels and "Y" number of IP and they're not interchangeable... and so on. There are so many options and variations it's not funny.

 

Another option is to go with a straight NVR and use analog cameras with IP encoders...

 

Here is another thought, how well would ip cameras work over homeplugs? I have power outlets right down near where the gates will be constructed, I could have a low res ip camera down there, connected to a homeplug, instead of running a cat5 cable all the way back to the house. Would that work?

It will... with a caveat: if the two modules are on separate legs of the phase (or worse, on separate phases), your speed will be severely reduced, and may not be enough for megapixel. Speed can also be affected by noise on the circuit, such as may be caused by heavy equipment or motors starting up.

 

Thats why I was looking for advice on the solutions available, and posted some specifics of what I would like the system to do. Hopefully the more knowledgeable people on here would then be able to narrow down the options available so I could arrive at a solution. You could consider that in two ways. Either Im being lazy and getting other people to design me a good cctv system, or Im using resources of people with more knowledge than myself to make sure I dont make a mess of things.

 

Luckily, the power to the outside is on the same leg of the same phase as a socket which can be used to connect to the network inside the house. However the gates power would be on the same leg, which could introduce noise. I wish to put lighting to the other side of the driveway in time, so if the homeplug idea doesnt work when the gates are installed, I shall just have to bring forward the lighting and lay a cat5 cable while Im at it.

 

I didnt want to go with analogue cameras due to their resolution limitations and would prefer to go straight to IP.

 

Maybe we can go about this another way...

 

Hows about if I stuck a budget onto the specification from the first post. Say £4000 or roughly $6500.

 

I dont expect 16 cameras for that, maybe 4 for now, with the ability to expand up to 16 just by adding cameras. A ptz would be nice, but I know thats asking a lot for the money. That could be added afterward.

 

So what system would people build for that budget?

 

Sorry if I appeared argumentative in earlier posts, I was annoyed at the lack of readily available pricing. Something which infuriates me. If websites dont have prices they dont get my business as I like to know what I want and where to et it from, thn get it done. The whole process of going from dealer to dealer asking for prices that should be printed on the shelf is just a concept I dont agree with.

[tomcctv 187]

I also have a very good friend that is an owner of a large manufacturer of cameras & housings of security equipment in the UK, they also supply to retailers and not general public

 

 

 

hi. if this is the company (in chesterfield) then they are toys compaired to avigilon .... most is just avtech re-branded. no ip or hybrid. you cant compaire prices from them against pro stuff.

 

you must have a budget. i see you have looked at geovision ....... now look at there price if you dont use geo ip cameras .... licence costs for 16 is £1100.

 

 

 

the 45mp limit you speak of on a hybrid system, is that total MP? i.e. could I theoretically have 45 x 1mp cameras? If so, then 8 x 3mp cameras and a few low res ones would be fine..

 

with the aver yes that is right .... i would not use anything less than 1.3mp going for 1mp then you are best just using analog in them areas. to look after your cars 3 or 5 mp and around house 2 or 3 mp ... axis is a good camera.

[chesterfield 0]

No the company is not in Chesterfield. Having just done a quick check of company accounts, the total net worth of this manufacturer is about 3 times that of Avigilon in the UK. They are by no means a small outfit.

 

Admitedly Avigilon in Canada is quite large, but this friend owns a manufacturer of housings and assembles camera components to make cameras to order. Prison cell ones for example that have to be very strong, but designed in a way that they cant be used as a place to strap a noose. Weird but true

 

I have looked at axis cameras (on the web) and thought they would do the job just fine. They are widely supported and looking at video quality they appear to be just the sort of thing I am looking for. Though it does amaze me that some people show off their 3mp cameras with a video on youtube recorded at 320 When Ive found actual resolution videos from the axis cameras they seem quite good.

 

What I havent seen a lot of, and maybe somoene will know where I can find this, is night or low light footage from many cameras.

 

Can anyone point me in the direction of a camera that has good day and night capability at at least 720p? The cameras for the garage would need to be good night vision as I doubt any theives would turn the lights on while rooting around in there.