MSRP and CCTV debate

[tomcctv 187]

Take for example when I posted a section of the MSRP list for avigilon th other day

 

 

Dave will have replied to your email by now. it will be along the lines of we do not supply to end users or trained installers. they will not deal with you direct.

 

 

 

 

looking though your posts it sounds as if you are looking to buy the equipment yourself and find an installer to fit it for you.... that in is self is a problem.

 

Havent' emailed Dave, Im asking for quotes from those that do sell the equipmet. As I say, it will be inetersting to see how far adrift from the MSRP the prices are from the installers. Then we will see the real reason for keeping the prices apparently hidden from the end consumer...

 

 

 

dave is avigilon uk. no point in you contacting canada.

 

Nothing wrong with it. But if the customer goes and finds cheaper hardware, then its up to you to explain the differences in charges and sell your services as a justification for the price difference.

 

 

say you do get a avigilon camera at there MSRP how are YOU going to keep the software upto date how are YOU going to get the warranty (as avigilon will not discuse it with you) were do YOU send a faulty camera back too.

 

 

to be honest this post is just getting to be a waste of time you are looking at something you cant do anyway that is why avigilon are the world leaders in there products. they get it right first time everytime.

[chesterfield 0]

The fact an installer has split this topic and given it the title they have says enough about the attitude toward discussing this topic that person/moderator has. How incredibly childish. Shows a complete and utter disregard for an end users queries and discussion.

 

The fact that when I asked for advice and help with a new installation all I got was Avigilon rammed down my throat was evidence enough that people are shifting to this just because they get to hide prices from consumers says an awful lot about the ethics of those people too.

 

The software I am quite capable of updating myself. If there were any problems with hardware, I would return to the seller. In the EU all electrical appliances must be sold with a 2 year manufacturer warranty. We also have the sale of goods act, so it doesnt much matter who sells me the device, Im covered against manufactiring defects and faults for 2 years.

 

 

 

dave is avigilon uk. no point in you contacting canada.

 

I know that I need to contact the UK, and I know that I can only buy from a retailer. What I can do now Im in possesion of the MRSP is find a retailer that doesnt want to rip me off. Thats all.

 

What Im suggesting is that some installers are jumping in to bed with manufacturers like this, just because they get to hide prices from the end users and rip them off. The fact that even sugesting this is met with such vicious hostility only adds to that assumption. There are also numerous quotes from installers and integrators suggesting the very same thing..

[tomcctv 187]

I know that I need to contact the UK, and I know that I can only buy from a retailer.

 

 

i dont think you understand UK has no retailers distributors for avigilon.

 

The fact that when I asked for advice and help with a new installation all I got was Avigilon rammed down my throat

 

 

only because you asked about avigilon. you were given other options

 

In the EU all electrical appliances must be sold with a 2 year manufacturer warranty.

 

importing is not covered by yourself.

 

Im covered against manufactiring defects and faults for 2 years.

 

untrainned installer wipes that. ..... (your not buying a fridge) and your not buying from the uk.

 

The software I am quite capable of updating myself.

how with not being a avigilon partner.

[jeromephone 6]

This is a bit confusing.

 

1. You have to make money to stay in business. So if I sell 5 cameras and mark them up 10% and charge 200 per hour for my labor my bottem line price is still the same.

 

Anything you purchase has to have a markup. Cost of transaction, cost of money, office overhead testing product etc. I have heard that a minimum markup on products of the type we sell is 25 per cent.

 

Policy on equipment purchased elsewere no warrentee, higher labor rate. higher markup on replacement parts

 

Product purchased through us parts and labor warrenteed for X years.

 

Purchase through repudable channels warrentees, returns and access to quality technical support.

[chesterfield 0]

i dont think you understand UK has no retailers distributors for avigilon.

 

There are several cctv retailers selling Avigilon software in the UK.

 

you were given other options

And told by Avigilon partners that they were all inferior and I would have problems with them (nice ballanced view there)

 

importing is not covered by yourself.

 

Sorry, but all goods sold within the UK, regardless of where they are manufactured are covered by our consumer law and EU law. As an example, Xbox's over here suffering the red ring of death are replaced/repaired up to the age of 3 years. Our sale of goods act covers products for up to 6 years, if the UK retailer has to import them, and then sells them here, the law protects the end consumer and the retailer in the UK must abide by the Sale of Goods act regardless of where the item came from.

 

untrainned installer wipes that. ..... (your not buying a fridge) and your not buying from the uk.

 

Again, you do not understand the UK sale of goods act. Any defect as a result of incorrect installation is not covered. The retailer would have to prove that the defect was due to incorrect installation to avoid warranty. If the RJ45 port or power supply develops a fault they cannot for example refuse to cover the device because I stuck it to the ceiling using double sided tape. Our consumer laws offer a LOT more protection than most outher countries.

 

The software I am quite capable of updating myself.

how with not being a avigilon partner.

If I have a licensed version of the software, I can download the updates straight from Avigilon. Or indeed I can get them from the retailer.

 

I think you (and others) have misconstrued my intentions. I am not wishing to purchase direct from Avigilon, I have no intention of being a partner. If I did, I would buy a partner business, but thats not something Im interested in. If I decide to go for Avigilon, I WILL be buying from a retailer. The only issue I have is why Avigilon bother to produce a MSRP list if they have no intention of making it public. All will become clear when I get receive quotes back from UK retailers. Then we will see why the MSRP is kept hidden, and just how much margin these retailers are adding to the products.

 

As Ive said, Im running with a budget of up to £8K or about $13,000 for a domestic system. Im fairly confident I can get an AVigilon setup for that, and one which will allow me to expand as the property grows. The issue is where to buy it from, and who is wanting to rip me off and who isnt.

 

If anyone is willing to sell me the software license right now they can PM me a price and Ill do a deal right now if I like it. However, Avigilon is so shrouded in secrecy I dont even know if I can buy it from a retailer overseas or not?

[chesterfield 0]

This is a bit confusing.

 

1. You have to make money to stay in business. So if I sell 5 cameras and mark them up 10% and charge 200 per hour for my labor my bottem line price is still the same.

 

Anything you purchase has to have a markup. Cost of transaction, cost of money, office overhead testing product etc. I have heard that a minimum markup on products of the type we sell is 25 per cent.

 

Policy on equipment purchased elsewere no warrentee, higher labor rate. higher markup on replacement parts

 

Product purchased through us parts and labor warrenteed for X years.

 

Purchase through repudable channels warrentees, returns and access to quality technical support.

 

This may be a good model for some, but for those that are getting upset at customers shopping online and finding cheaper prices, then what I suggested is to perhaps only markup the items that the customer cannot price online. In this case the installers expertise and knowledge.

 

As an example lets take a car tyre. Its a basic example but hopefully I can demonstrate the concept.

 

A customer knows from looking online they can get the tyre they want for $200. You ask a local tyre guy to quote, and he says its $220 for the tyre, plus $3 for fitting. You instantly feel that the guy is robbing you as you know the tyre can be had for $20 less. The customer could form an opinion about that tyre shop and pass this opinion on to others.

 

However, if the quote had been $200 for the tyre and $23 to fit, then the customer sees that the tyre price is reasonable but the fitting seems expensive. It is then up to the tyre shop to sell the benefits of having the tyre installed by them. They can still offer the same waranties on the tyre, as they have the same margin on the whole job, plus they can sell this as offering a warranty on a $200 tyre that the wouldnt get if they bought the tyre online, and either way they would still have to pay $23 for the fitting (and the tyre shop wouldnt have to offer the warranty).

 

I know its not the best of examples, and its not a practice that will work for all businesses, so I appreciate thatall your points above are valid. My view is that a manufacturer/distributor hiding pricing of goods from end users simply breeds a feeling of mistrust amongst end users and the retailers.

 

For larger corporate customers this is not a problem, as they are not the sort of client that does shopping around or DIY installations etc. They aren't bothered so much about the cost as in many cases it is peanuts in their overall budget, for them quality is above cost in terms of importance.

 

However, as manufacturers move toward the smaller end of the market, this hidden pricing scheme may make the equipment harder to sell in that area. We all know consumers shop around, we probably all do it ourselves. In todays climate we all want to check that we are getting a good deal. I consider myself half way toward this lower end of the market (although my spend is probably at the low end). I want a quality system tha will be of use if I do have a break in. I know this quality will cost me, hence my larger than normal budget for domestic. However I do still have a budget that I dont really want to exceed. Quality and price are about on par for me.

 

Then there will be customers for who budget is more important than quality. These are the people that will do a lot of shoppig round. These are the ones who if they spot a cheaper price for hardware online, will throw the quote in the bin from the retailer with a higher priced hardware. Also if they cant find prices online they may just walk past that manufacturer alltogether as they cant "test" the quotes they are given.

 

Dont get me wrong, I work in an industry where customers can go direct for prices and then try to beat me down on price, and it is a pain when you have spent ages working on a quote only to get a call saying "I found it cheaper online so I bought it from them" It is infuriating, but there are things we can do to prevent it, or at least sell our services to the customer in order to justify the extra cost.

 

Im not looking to be a troll, or pick fights with anyone here, just expressing my views as an end user and hoping to gain some insight.

[tomcctv 187]

There are several cctv retailers selling Avigilon software in the UK.

 

 

no... list them.

 

 

As Ive said, Im running with a budget of up to £8K or about $13,000 for a domestic system. Im fairly confident I can get an AVigilon setup for that, and one which will allow me to expand as the property grows. The issue is where to buy it from, and who is wanting to rip me off and who isnt.

 

 

 

you still do not understand. who are you going to use to install your system.

 

consumer law and EU law.

Canada is not in the EU..... buy an xbox from currys / bestbuy or pc world and yes your covered as they are uk distributors

 

If anyone is willing to sell me the software license right now they can PM me a price and Ill do a deal right now if I like it. However, Avigilon is so shrouded in secrecy I dont even know if I can buy it from a retailer overseas or not?

 

 

i can put you in touch with two avigilon installers ( they are avigilon employed not partners) but i dont think i will get a christmas card from them next year if i did.

 

 

the problem you dont understand (which is why you think you are getting ripped off)

 

avigilon is the rolls royce of IP top of the market the price is not hight its that price simple.

 

its like you with your ferrari DID you pay FORD Escort money for it .......... NO why it does the same thing except its quicker built better.

 

 

chesterfield 16 avigilon cameras to your home is not going to happen for 8k like has been said in your other posts look at axis or mobotix you will get a lot for your money

[thewireguys 3]

Avigilon does business the way THEY want to and you do the business the way YOU want to.

 

Your pissed off because you don't know how much the dealer is making for the product. GO BUY something else!!!!!!!

 

Why you have piss and moan because you can't find the price list on the web is just nuts. Avigilon is not marketed towards home owners and they don't want product to go directly to end users so because they want the system in be installed properly. Period end of story your not gonna change them.

 

If you want products that are **'d out to everyone look at Milestone and Axis.

 

 

For larger corporate customers this is not a problem, as they are not the sort of client that does shopping around or DIY installations etc. They aren't bothered so much about the cost as in many cases it is peanuts in their overall budget, for them quality is above cost in terms of importance.

 

AVIGILON DOESN'T WANT DIY INSTALLATIONS. That is not their market.

[chesterfield 0]

no... list them.

 

 

you still do not understand. who are you going to use to install your system.

 

 

Either the retailer I buy from, or myself with the help of a CCTV installer.

 

 

Canada is not in the EU..... buy an xbox from currys / bestbuy or pc world and yes your covered as they are uk distributors

 

Im not bying from Canada, Im buying from a retailer in the UK. Where they get it from is their business, but if my transaction takes place with a UK/EU company Im covered.

 

If anyone is willing to sell me the software license right now they can PM me a price and Ill do a deal right now if I like it. However, Avigilon is so shrouded in secrecy I dont even know if I can buy it from a retailer overseas or not?

 

 

i can put you in touch with two avigilon installers ( they are avigilon employed not partners) but i dont think i will get a christmas card from them next year if i did.

 

the problem you dont understand (which is why you think you are getting ripped off)

 

avigilon is the rolls royce of IP top of the market the price is not hight its that price simple.

 

I dont think Im getting ripped off. Indeed I dont even know the UK price yet. Ive played with the demos, Ive read about the devices Im interested in and Ive seen the MSRP list from Avigilon themselves. Ive accounted for "rip off britain" where prices dont seem to translate according to the exchange rate, and Im happy with the price.

 

chesterfield 16 avigilon cameras to your home is not going to happen for 8k like has been said in your other posts look at axis or mobotix you will get a lot for your money

 

I know I wont get a 16 camera system. Having looked at the specs of various cameras and the differing software, then I think for now, 2 x 5mp cameras and maybe 5 x 3mp cameras (2 of which will be indoor). Those with the 8 camera Standard version of the software will be plenty for now. Im hopeful that will come in around or under the £8k budget. Im not including any server hardware in those costs either at present.

 

If I ever go over the 8 cameras, then Id have to buy the licenses to do so, but I may as well start with something thats more what I need, rather than what I want

 

 

I hope this clears things up for people, Im not here just to troll, I am actually serious about having a decent security system, and having played with Avigilon I think its what I want, and Im prepared for the costs. Ive also run it past the "boss" currently carrying our first child, and got the stamp of approval

 

 

 

 

its like you with your ferrari DID you pay FORD Escort money for it .......... NO why it does the same thing except its quicker built better.

It cerainly wasnt ford escort money, and its a damn sight quicker Ill give you that, but built better? Hmmm. You wouldnt believe the trouble I had convincing the dealer that flaking paint in the door shuts should be covered under warranty Mind you they are 10x better than my experience with Jaguar. Them I really could moan about So far (touch wood) Land Rover has been a lot better, even though the RR is screwed together just next door to the Jag.

[chesterfield 0]

blah blah...

 

I dont want to know exactly how much the installer is making out of me, I just want to know whether Im being ripped off for it. Take your quote to me for example on the Axis Camera. It was $200 more than I could find it online. Am I prepared to pay $200 for someone with your knowledge and expertise to provide the kit, yes probably.

 

Im not sayong installers should be charities and give their knowledge and goods away for zero profit, but the fact there are people making comments about avigilon purely based around their ability to sell a product that a customer cant find prices on, does little to impress and end consumer.

 

As for Avigilon not aiming at the lower end of the market, it seems that newer products coming out are certainly aiming lower down the market than before. The core version of their software with 4 camera licenses, no remote view etc etc.. Doesnt sound like the usual high end installations.

 

Also the fact is, retailers such as yourself and others will only have a finite number of high end large scale installations - when they have all been done, or are serviced by other dealers - who next? Or is your business model to target only one sector of the industry during a recession?

[thewireguys 3]

 

I dont want to know exactly how much the installer is making out of me, I just want to know whether Im being ripped off for it. Take your quote to me for example on the Axis Camera. It was $200 more than I could find it online. Am I prepared to pay $200 for someone with your knowledge and expertise to provide the kit, yes probably.

 

Was the site you found the price at a authorized dealer? Are they gonna help you when you have questions? I know you have IT experience but no offence that means very little when it comes to IP video.

 

Im not sayong installers should be charities and give their knowledge and goods away for zero profit, but the fact there are people making comments about avigilon purely based around their ability to sell a product that a customer cant find prices on, does little to impress and end consumer.

 

It doesn't do much to impress your FREE support group either

 

As for Avigilon not aiming at the lower end of the market, it seems that newer products coming out are certainly aiming lower down the market than before. The core version of their software with 4 camera licenses, no remote view etc etc.. Doesnt sound like the usual high end installations.

 

It's designed for smaller business NOT end user sales or web sales.

 

Also the fact is, retailers such as yourself and others will only have a finite number of high end large scale installations - when they have all been done, or are serviced by other dealers - who next? Or is your business model to target only one sector of the industry during a recession?

 

Trust me I have PLENTY of work for medium to large projects, government and police departments. I don't care about quantity I want quality and that is what keeps customers coming back.

 

A wise old man once told me "If your good at what you do you have to go find the work, If your the best it finds you"

[rory 0]

The fact an installer has split this topic and given it the title they have says enough about the attitude toward discussing this topic that person/moderator has. How incredibly childish. Shows a complete and utter disregard for an end users queries and discussion.

 

The fact that when I asked for advice and help with a new installation all I got was Avigilon rammed down my throat was evidence enough that people are shifting to this just because they get to hide prices from consumers says an awful lot about the ethics of those people too.

 

The software I am quite capable of updating myself. If there were any problems with hardware, I would return to the seller. In the EU all electrical appliances must be sold with a 2 year manufacturer warranty. We also have the sale of goods act, so it doesnt much matter who sells me the device, Im covered against manufactiring defects and faults for 2 years.

 

 

 

dave is avigilon uk. no point in you contacting canada.

 

I know that I need to contact the UK, and I know that I can only buy from a retailer. What I can do now Im in possesion of the MRSP is find a retailer that doesnt want to rip me off. Thats all.

 

What Im suggesting is that some installers are jumping in to bed with manufacturers like this, just because they get to hide prices from the end users and rip them off. The fact that even sugesting this is met with such vicious hostility only adds to that assumption. There are also numerous quotes from installers and integrators suggesting the very same thing..

 

Your lucky, whenever I speak about the "A" brand my posts get deleted

[tomcctv 187]

Your lucky, whenever I speak about the "A" brand my posts get deleted

 

 

+1 your right its a pointless post and this one should be deleted

[chesterfield 0]

Aww dont delete this thread. I was hoping to finaly get people to realise Im not a troll

 

The weekend is almost here - maybe we are all just fed up having to go back to work after the festive season. I know I am

[thewireguys 3]

+10000000000000 Useless thread please delete

[chesterfield 0]

He said post, not thread. At least that was my understanding.

[Soundy 1]

Havent' emailed Dave, Im asking for quotes from those that do sell the equipmet. As I say, it will be inetersting to see how far adrift from the MSRP the prices are from the installers. Then we will see the real reason for keeping the prices apparently hidden from the end consumer...

Unless you know everything that goes into a reseller or integrator's markup, it's not a very valid comparison. You don't know how many levels of wholesale a product might have to go through for one integrator vs. another; you're also comparing integrators from different areas where different taxes, import duties, or shipping costs may apply.

 

Keep in mind that the S in MSRP stands for SUGGESTED... meaning nobody downstream is beholden to it by the manufacturer.

 

The fact an installer has split this topic and given it the title they have says enough about the attitude toward discussing this topic that person/moderator has.

The thread was split because you derailed it with your own rant, which had nothing whatsoever to do with the original thread.

 

How incredibly childish. Shows a complete and utter disregard for an end users queries and discussion.

So does threadjacking someone else's topic with your own rants.

 

The fact that when I asked for advice and help with a new installation all I got was Avigilon rammed down my throat...

As has already been pointed out, you ASKED SPECIFICALLY about Avigilon in your very first post. Nobody rammed it down your throat. When you later complained about their business model and stated that you wouldn't use them, you were given numerous other suggestions. That should have been the end of it, but you continued to harp on the subject and even brought it up again in someone else's thread.

 

What Im suggesting is that some installers are jumping in to bed with manufacturers like this, just because they get to hide prices from the end users and rip them off. The fact that even sugesting this is met with such vicious hostility only adds to that assumption.

Unwarranted false accusations also tend to draw hostility. If I accuse you of beating your wife, how will you react? If I continually respond to your denials with little more than, "methinks he doth protest too much", will you not become hostile in defending yourself?

 

Your lucky, whenever I speak about the "A" brand my posts get deleted

That's because your posts on the subject contain nothing other than calling it's proponents scammers and accusations that they're ripping people off. There's no value to that, just as there's no value to this thread.

 

+10000000000000 Useless thread please delete

 

Nah... but I think it's time to lock it.